Remington Rolling Block ID w/followup

45Wheelgun · Oct 19, 2013

I picked this gun up this week. It was sold to me as a Doug Turnbull restoration of a New York State Model.

The gun shares the following characteristics with a New York State Model - No serial number, 50-70 Caliber (I was told this, there are no markings), locking-action (with half-cock safety), "Tall" hammer, breechblock spur protrudes horizontally, shield-shaped checkering on hammer and spur, Sling swivel on trigger guard, three barrel bands, a 36" barrel and 51.5" OAL.

All seems good right? The issue I have is that the last patent date is 1874 which is a year after the last order for the state. From what I have been able to find online the last patent date should be 1871.

So if it isn't a New York State Model - what is it?

Some pictures:

Nframecollector · Oct 19, 2013

What does Turnbull have to say about it? Looks like an excellent restoration.

2152hq · Oct 19, 2013

With no markings on the wood to signify NYS ownership, Co or Unit assignment,,,it could be what's called a Commercial New York State Model.
I don't know alot (much at all actually) about the RB collecting, but being in NY these come up in discussions once in a while.
The NYS marked rifles are very popular collectors items here as would be imagined.

From what I've been told there were some overrun parts assembled into rifles (by Remington) and sold through a few of Remingtons distributors of the time (mid to late 1870's) as a commercial variation of the RB rifle.
Simply called the New York State Model (Rolling Block) Rifle in some of the listings of the time from those few distributors.

The thought of replacement wood on the rifle would answer as to why there are no NYS markings in it. But I believe the wood is original or at least period and has been restored from the looks of it. The tell tale dark oil soak at the edges of the metal are a clue.
It's not a bad thing,,not suggesting that at all. Just a clue to it's originality.
Better to have old original than old looking new replacement if given a choice.

I'd hate to think this is a tarted up Swede RB in 12,7X44R,,but anything is possible now-a-days.
Check it over very closely for clues.
No markings at all other than the (recut?) tang raises a flag with me. Might be nothing.

The bold 'S' stampings on the top of the frame at the tang joint look stamped after the new polish.
I'm not familiar with either the S or the B (?) mark on the bbl
to know what they mean or if they are correct for the rifle.

Just my thoughts.

45Wheelgun · Oct 19, 2013

Thanks for the insight 2152hq. My understanding is the Turnbull does not reapply markings or cartouches to wood.

Ivan the Butcher · Oct 19, 2013

My collection of rolling blocks is at 2 and holding (been on hold for 30+ years) but my references have continued to grow. I am inclined to agree that it is a beautifully restored commercial musket. The patent date concerns me less than the total lack of inspector's marks, or inventory/unit markings, which no one would knowingly remove. However, your rifle is a beauty. If you plan on shooting it, I would stick with the Holy Black 2F or Shockley's Gold and avoid Pyrodex. Dixie, a long time ago had 50-70 brass and Shiloh sharps and other companies should be able set you up. Be sure to use a lube "cookie" under your projectile. One of my rolling blocks is frankenstein gun, on a Egyptian action and a US 50/50 Carbine barrel. I found 2/3 paraffine and 1/3 corn oil melted together, makes a very good bullet lube and grease cookie product; of course SPG lube works great also but is very pricey. I always weigh all my Black Powder charges, and use a 12-16" drop tube (on 45-70 that makes a 5/8" difference in the powder column). On single shot rifles a crimp is not needed beyond keeping the cartridge assembled. If you stick to Black powder loads you won't need to buy loading dies for the first few reloadings, and can assemble rounds with a vise or just your press to seat the bullet to length. (which is how I reload my 50/50 Carbine.) I have dies for my Spanish produced Reformado rifle. Somewhere between 50 and 70 grain of 2Fg will be a very nice load, fill all air gaps with an over the powder card and a grease cookie and then if necessary a felt wad. The heavier charges will most likely match the sights. By the way, a standard rifle primer is all I use even on cartridges into the 110 grain range. Mag rifle primers will work, but are not needed. When you are ready to take it to the range, PM me and we will make some clouds together.

Ivan the Butcher

45Wheelgun · Oct 20, 2013

Well Ivan - you are just down the road. We should get together so you can see it in person. While I would like to fire it, I doubt I will fire it much. I may just find a box of commercial 50/70 and have some fun. I am trying to find someone among my friends who might have a couple of rounds as I don't think I'll need a whole box.

Is the rear sight correct for this gun? I can't seem to find a picture on the web of a RB with that exact sight on it.

Ivan the Butcher · Oct 20, 2013

I think you are correct in that the rear sight isn't military (It is too nice and too adjustable and only goes to 400 yards). That sight could be anywhere from 125 years old to brand new. (check the Montana guys on sights) None of my Black Powder shooters have 50-70's. Tom at Aumillers has a 50-90 sharps and I have the 50-50, so check with us for some projectiles ( my mould is a very crude 425 grain spitzer RN and you cut the sprue off with side cutters). The other mould is Dan's I think and you'll have to make "arrangements" to use the mould. Ivan

2152hq · Oct 20, 2013

45Wheelgun said:
Thanks for the insight 2152hq. My understanding is the Turnbull does not reapply markings or cartouches to wood.

Maybe he doesn't reapply the markings to wood anymore.
I worked for him at one time. Wood markings were redone as well as metal.
I used to make some of the stamps for him,,wood and metal marking.
An interior door casing next to my bench was a handy proof surface for them and was littered with cartouches.
Even the Luftwaffe eagle mark stamp I made for the stock on a Sauer survival drilling was stamped more than a few times around the shop.
Smaller punches were struck into a lead bench block for a clear look.
Others were outsourced from firms specializing in it.
Anything up to and including roll dies were made up.

Restoration biz has gone wild.
Anything goes and I mean anything.

45Wheelgun · Oct 20, 2013

"My Understanding" means Internet lore I read, I have no real data to suggest what Turnbull does or doesn't do.

On the Remington Forum, the sight has been identified as an 1880's vintage target sight used for Creedmore shooting and period correct for the gun, even if not the way it left the factory. They (Matt) have also verified that the patent dates are period correct. NY state continued to order rifles through the 1880's and they could in fact have the 1874 patent dates on them. So it appears to be a period correct gun.

Turnbull restoration? That remains to be seen. He comes to OGCA periodically, I will endeavor to show it to him for verification. I don't know anyone else doing case hardening with such vivid colors as this.

Regardless, I have ammo on order and look forward to shooting it!

2152hq · Oct 20, 2013

I understand.
Should be a fun shooter.
.50 anything has to be.

45Wheelgun · Oct 28, 2013

A little followup:

Emailed Turnbull Manufacturing a link to my photobucket folder of picture (more than are here) and they verified that the case coloring was indeed theirs and that the work would have been done prior to 2008 when their records were computerized. They also noted that there were two types of bluing done during the restoration - Rust Blue on the barrel and Carbonia charcoal blue for all the fixtures. They do not mark their restorations in any way, so there is nothing "hidden" on the gun that would have identified it as their work.

The sight has been identified as an armory modification as well as a factory item. It was authorized as modification by the N.G.S.N.Y. in a diagram from the Manual for Rifle Practice, written by Gen. Geo. W. Wingate, General Inspector of Rifle Practice N.G.S.N.Y. in 1879. Here is that diagram:

For those that might think they recognize that name, Gen Wingate was instrumental in the founding of the NRA and served as it's first Secretary and also as it's president for 25 years early on.

Here are two sights on "known" guns from the 71st Regiment Shooting team:

One of those guns belonged to the Regimental "Inspector of Rifle Practice" referenced in the diagram above - Col. E.A. Rockwood. The other is from "Rifle #5" of the 12 special ordered rifles that shipped direct from Remington in the 1880s with those sights.

None of the above is my research - it all belongs to Matt from the Remington Society but he was kind enough to share it with me. There is no doubt that the sight on my gun matches the known target sights on those two rifles as well as the diagram provided.

Matt also has an ad from Bannerman's in 1927 where these rifles were sold to the public for $9 each.

Is the internet cool or what? Before AlGore, there would have been no way to find all this out, and even if I had, it couldn't possibly been this quickly.

A big tip of the hat to Matt from the Remington Society, I would not have learned this without his willingness to share.

Remington Rolling Block ID w/followup

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