I like doubles but only owned a Rossi Coach gun for a few months. Sold it to a Cowboy Action shooter who begged for it. John Wayne used his pair of short barreled Greeners in the Big Jake movie with good success. I want a short barreled Greener now.

Charlie

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SWCA # 2294

Rossi Coach Gun, 12 gauge-bought in 1973. Feels good in the hand.

I have a Centurion (made in Turkey) in .410 with external hammers. I can shoot .45 Colt black powder blanks out of it without adapters for Cowboy Mounted Shooting.

I replaced my 00 with #4 after reading that #4 is a better defense shot. I don't recall the rationale but IIRC it had to do with increased hit probability and total lead on target. I just googled this:

Best Shotgun Ammo For Self Defense & Why? GunData.org



12 Gauge
The 12 gauge 2 ¾ inch shell 00 buckshot is considered the best load for self-defense purposes. This is the most effective man stopper currently on the market that is sold to the public. The recommended shells are Federal "Classic" (F127-00), Winchester Super-X (X12RB5), or the Remington Buckshot (SP12BK-5PK00) as the best double-out buckshot self-defense rounds on the market. Each fired round is almost equal to a nine-round burst from a submachine gun, with every round from the buckshot hitting the target.

Shooters need to be aware they need effective shotgun technique to hit a target. Pointing a shotgun in the general direction of an attacker isn't enough. Read Ayoob's book 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' for the low-down on good shotgun skills and then practice as much as possible.

Most experienced shooters prefer the #4 or the #1 buckshot to 00. Lt. Marshall is on record as saying that the 00 is superior to the #4 and #1 in penetration and man stopping power. So, any of the three types will work against an attacker, and Ayoob has been said to favor the #1. Shooters should stay away from 2 ¾ inch Magnum or 3 inch Magnum loads. The reason behind this is the recoil from the kick after each shot makes them hard to control and shooters will have trouble making an accurate follow-up shot. Control while shooting is as important as anything else, and the standard 12 gauge shells have enough kick without the added kick from the magnum rounds.

If you follow ZZZipper's link and read the article, you will see this:

I have seen that claim before: at "across the room" type ranges bird shot is as good as anything else. But I have no personal knowledge of this. No doubt someone can google up comparison tests to give us more information.

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You're shy a few manners.

Alpo
When I found out my dad had shortened the barrels of the 20guage Savage 311 I did worry about that. But I can say after several hundreds of rounds since the shortening there have not been any problems.

As to buckshot effective effectiveness...

Back in the day I was involved is some extensive tests of 12 ga buckshot ammo,which included results from actual shootings.

Here are some "Random Thoughts".

No 4 Buck does not have enough penetration, in all weather, and in all shot angles to be used by me...

No1 is better than No4, but at even extended converesational distances it can lack in required penetration...

Single O [also called Single Ought]. For all round use, back in the day this was my favorite. It has good penetration, even at extended shotgun ranges and it had a much better pattern there as well. I am very fond of it.

Double OO [ie Double Ought] Double OO has great penetration, up close it worked great, however back in the day it was found that at exended SGN distances, because of the way the pellets were stacked in the shell it tended to throw a pattern with BIG holes in it. Patterns were NOT predicitable.

Also I can say that the Federal Tactical OO, and the Remington Reduced Recoil OO with one less buckshot, stacked differently in the 12 guage hull, and at reduced velocity, patterns much tighter, and gives plenty of penetration at typical Police shooting, and Citizen shotgun shooting distances. With much reduced recoil as well.

In regards to Bird shot for personal defense...

There is NO WAY that I would use birs shot, on purpose, for personal defense.

I have seen several people shot with bird shot, and with the exception of Suicides I cannot recall anyone that was killed with it...

And I can recall a couple of Suicides where 2 shots were required...

I had a Stoeger 12ga hammerless coach gun for a couple of years but traded it and a couple other guns for my M92 Krinkov AK which is now my truck gun.

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Rick, W0FG
CTR2 68-72

We seem to be drifting into a caliber -or in this case-gauge war. Stopping power-threat neutralization, really- is THE criterion for self defense.

"Double OO" is 0000. That would equate to a 66 caliber ball, close to a single slug (which is ~ 72 caliber).

Capstick relates how he once killed a crippled lion with #8 bird shot at about 10 feet. A shot pattern expands at about one inch per foot (of course, shot size, barrel length, wads, and choke all affect that). I confirmed that while patterning several turkey loads in different shotguns. Remember, larger pellets will ricochet more and also penetrate more. I remember they taught us in combat training NOT to hit the floor because when bullets bounce, they tend to stay parallel the floor and low (about 12"). Prison guards will shoot in front of prisoners so that the bounce will catch them in the shins.

Not really, I asked the question about shot size and appreciate the responses. It directly relates to the shotgun. Speaking of which, one theory I've heard is that the more pellets in the barrel means more chance of bouncing off each other creating less consistent patterns. I don't know if I buy that completely. I would think that more pellets are going to fill more space, regardless.
The question then falls back to range and penetration IMO.
But, yes, you're right..... The original question was about the Gun itself. I think those responding already like the platform and its a natural progression talking about what it delivers.

I go to a slightly different rational in my loading. In my main house gun I have a 9 shot Mossie 590 12 loaded as to fire 5 00 buck with 4 slugs behind those. Not concerned with over penetration, no close neighbors, and no kids in house. Also may have to take care of marauding wildlife (Bears) and do to the fact LEO response could easily be a over 20 minute wait if other problems occur..

So for my coach gun (secondary back up) I only have 00 buck on the guns butt stock holder. I do have a bandoleer with more 00 and slugs available hanging right next to both guns (remember we might have a long wait for help) that is assuming we could call by LL, no cell service way up here.

The coach gun sometimes is with me in my truck while firewood gathering or on my ATV when I go on long abandoned logging road trails.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

Left my Baikal 19" in Australia. It was my boat gun & croc deterrant.
Now that I think about it, I miss it, it was a very nice piece.

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Halfway and one more step

A coach gun with the minimum legal bbl lengths, twin triggers wired back & exposed hammers. "Shoot me and you will be shooting yourselves". NOT SAFE/LEGAL? in front or behind it, but effective & intimidating.

Sort of like an old John Wayne movie I remember seeing.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

If two shots were required for a suicide using ANY shotgun load, it because of some last second flinch or momentary change of heart. Or maybe really, really bad shot location.

Some of you remember that there was an incident of horseplay death or suicide by one of the actors on a TV show called Alias Smith and Jones. Seems he put a handgun loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. IIRC, he was brain dead and they later took him off life support. There were various explanations of how the column of air by itself and / or the cotton wadding in a blank can cause massive trauma to the brain due to the high velocity and extremely short range involved. Please don't try this at home.

So if air and / or cotton could cause such an effect, I have to think that an ounce of lead pellets, no matter how small each individual pellet may be, would do a whole lot more damage. Like pretty much take your head right off. Please don't try this at home either!

Naturally, the Military and Police use buckshot in their shotguns, for very good reason. They may be called on to make some long range (for a shotgun) shots. At short enough ranges you get very little spread. (See BearBio's post). That ounce of lead is going to be one tight little package when it hits its target at close range.

But please use whatever you think is best. I thought the article raised an interesting point about birdshot at close range. I'm sure that doubters could contact the author and ask him to back up that statement.

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You're shy a few manners.

Jack Flash, wasn't that actor Jon-Erik Hexum, he starred in "Cover Up" with Jennifer O'Neil?

I Googled it and found out his name was Peter Ellstrom "Pete" Deuel. His stage name was Pete Duel.

I couldn't remember. Sorry for anyone to go that way.

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You're shy a few manners.

Strangely enough just last night...

We have egg laying chickens here on our place. It looked like a raccoon had tried to dig into the wifes chicken coop.

So, she set 2 traps. Well last night we had a wind storm here. So I stayed up late. Around 4 am I discovered that she had a raccoon in both of her traps... I could see 2 sets of eyes with my Surefire flashlight through the back door, in the traps.
I went outside with the Savage Mod 311 20ga, with its Surefire Nitrolon taped under the barrels, just in case.

Not to worry the raccons were both in the traps.

I woke her up, and she transported the raccons several miles away and let them go..., alive.

So again the Savage 311 served me well. It is a very handy, very effective gun.

And yes we, [mostly she], do not kill an animal if we are not going to eat it, unless it is necessary...

Bear, do not be silly. Everyone in the serious shotgun world knows when it is written, what Single O, and Double OO buck shot means...