Looking at lever action rifles in 45C

The movie guns are usually Winchester 92's that they removed the handguards to look like Henry's not 66 Yellowboy's....

OP... you simply cannot go wrong with a good Uberti 1866/1873....or the older Marlin's not the new Remlins as they are called in SASS.

Randy
 
growr said:
The movie guns are usually Winchester 92's that they removed the handguards to look like Henry's not 66 Yellowboy's....
Randy
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Maybe... but I have never seen a Winchester 92 with a brass receiver... such as this one Clint Eastwood used in GB&U...
MV5BMTg3NTQ2OTIwN15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzc0Mzg4Mw@@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg


Or this one... used by Danny Glover in Silverado...
600px-SilveradoWin66mock-2.jpg


However, you may be able to explain it.

To the OP... a lot of folks who get a Uberti '73... have that orange-looking finish removed and replaced with a different finish (tongue-oil, etc.)...
 
Easy to explain. Older westerns - up to maybe the 60s, used Hollywood Henrys. 92 Winchesters (which were everywhere, and nobody really wanted them since there were much newer, more powerful guns around, and they were in obsolete calibers), with the forearm removed and the receiver painted yellow or brass plated.

Using a real Henry was difficult, as the rimfire ammo was not made, and there were no blanks available. Using a real Winchester 66 was no better, since it, also, was 44 Rimfire. Same ammo problem.

Then along comes Uberti and Val whats-his-name (Navy Arms). Now replicas of the old guns, in modern calibers, were around, and movie folk started using them. While Danny Glover uses a 66 with the forearm removed, in Silverado, and CALLS it a Henry, his father's gun is actually a Henry.

So movies made in the last 40 or 50 years USUALLY don't have Hollywood Henrys.
 
I understand the reason Winchester, Marlin, Henry, etc., didn't make a lever rifle in 45 Colt was that the rim of the 45 Colt was small and weak. Instead, they opted for the 32-20, 25-20, 44-40, etc., to fill the pistol cartridge chambered rifle niche. What's changed?
 
Alpo said:
Easy to explain. Older westerns - up to maybe the 60s, used Hollywood Henrys. 92 Winchesters (which were everywhere, and nobody really wanted them since there were much newer, more powerful guns around, and they were in obsolete calibers), with the forearm removed and the receiver painted yellow or brass plated.
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Thanks... that sounds reasonable. However... both rifles that I referred to above and posted pics of were '66 Yellowboys. In GB&U... here is the link in the IMFDB...
Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

Didn't focus on it much... just watched the movie. Also fascinating... he also had a scoped rifle with an off-set mount on it in one of the early scenes.
 
gregintenn said:
I understand the reason Winchester, Marlin, Henry, etc., didn't make a lever rifle in 45 Colt was that the rim of the 45 Colt was small and weak. Instead, they opted for the 32-20, 25-20, 44-40, etc., to fill the pistol cartridge chambered rifle niche. What's changed?
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The original 45 Colt cartridges have a very small rim. The case was extracted by a rod from the front. Later 45 Colt cases have a larger rim. Sometime in the 70ties (about) the rim was enlarged and the case made stronger. There was a 1909 45 military cartridge that was made for the 1909 military revolver. It had a very large rim to take the extractor of the swing out cylinder. The smaller rims would not always be extracted properly so the military specified a different design. The larger rims of the 45 Colt ammo today seem to work in the lever guns.

The 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 were made for the Winchester 1873 model rifle. They have a very nice rim that the extractor will work on. The cases are also tapered to help them work in the action. Winchester did design some pistol cartridges back then but never made any production pistols.
 
Sometimes pictures help.

Original 45 Colt. Hardly any rim at all. Benet-primed. Primer underneath the head of case. Case made of soft copper. Quick inspection and folks think it's rimfire.



Then when they went to brass, there was a little rim, but still not much. The right-hand case is the old style, called "balloon head". The left-hand case is the modern "solid-head" case, and because the head area is solid brass, they can machine a fairly large "extractor groove" in it.



The rim is still small, compared to other rounds, but now with that groove there is something for the extractor to latch hold of.
 
Hellraiser said:
Thanks... that sounds reasonable. However... both rifles that I referred to above and posted pics of were '66 Yellowboys. In GB&U... here is the link in the IMFDB...
Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

Didn't focus on it much... just watched the movie. Also fascinating... he also had a scoped rifle with an off-set mount on it in one of the early scenes.
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There were some 1860s re-designed with King's modification. The barrels were swapped out, the magazine tubes were dove tailed to the barrels and the right side was modified to have a loading gate. The carrier would have been modified too for loading through the side instead of the muzzle end of the mag tube.

:)

Jay

As far as worthy .45lc rifles go, I am really happy with my Uberti 1873. Mine is straight stocked and has a 24 inch barrel. I have a Pioneer Gun Works short stroke kit, lightened brass carrier, tuned springs and my own modified sights. I use it for cowboy action matches and it is just a blast to shoot. I run a 200 grain bullet, 4.5 grains of tite group powder, a magnum pistol primer and I crimp my load with a Lee factory crimp die. With all that barrel it is a lot like shooting a .22.
 
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I agree with him on that. Even though I don't shoot black, I've got one 45 rifle - a 16" Rossi with the John Wayne big loop. But I've got three 44/40s. Just a better rifle caliber all around. Only thing wrong with it is that little bottleneck means you can't use carbide dies.

 
Rossi 92 is a great little rifle that can be used with any factory load ,,, and loaded safely up to the hottest loads that would split a Ruger .
 
If I were a black powder shooter I would be a big .44-40 fan. I would have to believe that the shoulder in the .44-40 case would make a better seal. I can tell you from experience that sub sonic .45 lc loads do soot up pretty good and you definately wouldn't want to discharge rounds without safety eye wear. :cool:

Jay
 
Hellraiser said:
This whole topic is fascinating to me. Alpo... I think I remember when you and Driftwood Johnson would post stuff like this all the time over on the SASS Wire. Also, remember when Driftwood would state that the 44-40 was a much better black powder cartridge than the .45LC... cause the case above the shoulder would expand and was more inclined to decrease powder "blow-back" into the rifle receiver.

Hey 33 Jay Man... I still have a '73 Short Rifle in .38/357... the top one (both were spankin' new in this pic). Sold the bottom rifle to a fella who immediately replaced the finish...
IMG_0392_zpsa89eb0d2.jpg
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I have a Beretta 1873 like those in your picture but with a blued reciever, checkered wood and a shotgun style butt plate. It is all SASS'ed up and has been shot in 50 or so matches. Mine runs like a top but others have had head space problems with the factory installed short stroke kit.

Jay
 
In the 19th Century they didn't go for the 45 Colt in rifles. The small rim, combined with the effect of black powder fouling, made for chancy extraction. And back then, these weren't toys, but rifles on which your life may have depended. Better safe than sorry, so they didn't make them in 45 Colt.
 
Cyrano said:
In the 19th Century they didn't go for the 45 Colt in rifles. The small rim, combined with the effect of black powder fouling, made for chancy extraction. And back then, these weren't toys, but rifles on which your life may have depended. Better safe than sorry, so they didn't make them in 45 Colt.
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Colt Mfg. tried the .45LC by developing the Burgess... the allure of using the same cartridge in both rifle and handgun was great. However... you are correct... that small rim stopped Colt... and they stuck with the .44WCF for the limited-run Burgess. Hear-tell shortly after the Burgess... Winchester paid Colt a visit with a couple of prototype handguns... and they ended up with a handshake. Colt stuck to handguns... Winchester stuck to rifles.

Item of note: Colt developed the Frontier Six-Shooter in '79 to accompany the Winchesters.

There is a lot more to it than that... but that's as concise as I can make it.
 
smokey04 said:
All of my lever guns are Marlins from .22 to .45-70 oh, and uh .410 lever gun.Never been sorry with any one of them . Nick
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Marlin makes some great guns. Got a friend who has a Marlin lever .444... and along with the 45-70... it is one of the greatest deep-brush rounds I have ever seen. Up close and personal... if I was in grizzly territory and wanted a lever... either of those would be my choice.
 
I had a Taraus "Lightning" in 45 Colt. The powder blasting around the bolt (light cowboy loads) would "sand blast" your eyes, the first time you shot without safety glasses! I have had several 92's (over the years I've had 14 or 15 in various calibers) and Marlins (over the years I've had 18 in various calibers),2 being Cowboy Specials (one in 44-40 the other in 45 Colt). Marlins are much easier to detail clean! The problem I see most with the operation of any 92 is that people are too gentle with them. They run best when you slap that lever with authority. I have worked on the actions of several and made them smooth as glass, but they will jamb or catch without positive lever use. Marlin went to a two piece firing pin a long time ago. When the bolt is full of powder fouling they jam more frequently. I have guns with after market one piece firing pins and some with factory two piece; when clean there isn't a noticeable difference. If you want to lighten the trigger spring on a Marlin, it is better to buy a replacement spring. I had cut springs catch on things.

The only problem I have found with the Henry/66/73/76 action design is Cartridge Overall Length! In must never be too long, and if too short you lock up with a second round stuck halfway in the tube. My Italian 73 (44 Special) is a smooth dream if the ammo is right.Ivan
 
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