Colt Police Positive, It Is Trashed?

Cheesemonger · #1 02-08-2015, 07:21 PM

Hi All,
About a year ago my brother purchased a very used Colt Police Positive for a very reasonable price. It had been re-blued and the trigger/hammer had been jeweled. I took it out to the range today and began shooting with .38 Special FMJ standard loads. Pulling the trigger after the second shot, I realized that the revolver was "locked up". Opening the cylinder I discovered that the cylinder had been binding on what can only be described as thin semi circles of jacket material. Another cylinder full produced the same results. I switched to lead full wadcutters and had no further issues.
As I was cleaning the Colt this afternoon I discovered the issue in the photos. Help! Is this removed by the jacket material or for some reason was this "gully" put in there by some other means (factory?!). I realize that the revolver is probably out of time but I don't want to spend the money to get it repaired if it now unsafe to fire.

RalphK22 · #2 02-08-2015, 07:31 PM

I think that is called a fouling cup. It was put on older hand guns to help with black powder fouling. I have an old 32 hand ejector with that feature.

Otreb · #3 02-08-2015, 07:40 PM

They scallop near the gap was pretty normal on the older Colt DA and even S&W HE's. My understanding was it had to do with stunting any flame cutting before they went to harder steels and fully understood flame cutting was largely superficial.

Cheesemonger · #4 02-08-2015, 07:47 PM

Thanks RalphK22! I know very little about gunsmithing. I am just really scared as I would hate for anyone shooting it or nearby to get hurt. If it is acceptable to continue to fire this revolver, would it be, in your opinion, "safe"to use with lead bullets until I can "gleen" enough funds to get it repaired properly? I realize that it is not a valuable firearm but I really like it for some reason.

RalphK22 · #5 02-08-2015, 08:09 PM

I am far from an expert on these matters, but shaving copper jackets or lead sounds like a timing issue. Do you know how to check the timing? Pulling the hammer back slowly the cylinder stop bolt should drop into the cylinder stops just before the hammer locks back. Pull the trigger and let the hammer down with your thumb. With the trigger still held back there should be very little side to side motion of the cylinder. That is basic and I am sure some one here can give you better advice.

Andrew2105 · #6 02-08-2015, 08:10 PM

I think that the answer is clear. You should not be firing a
malfunctioning gun.

Set it aside until you can afford a competent adjustment/repair.

IMHO

Cheesemonger · #7 02-08-2015, 08:15 PM

Thanks RalphK22!
I did exactly as you described and I found that if I pull the hammer back, the cylinder locks up fine before the hammer is fully cocked. When I slowly and deliberately pull the TRIGGER back however, the hammer will fall before the cylinder stop is indexed as I can rotate it a fraction of an inch before it "clicks" in after the hammer has fallen.

Cheesemonger · #8 02-08-2015, 08:18 PM

Also, when I drop the hammer and keep the trigger back, the cylinder is rock solid and doesn't move at all.

Cheesemonger · #9 02-08-2015, 08:23 PM

Hi Andrew2105!
You are absolutely right! Why do a disservice to the revolver OR the person next to me at the range!! Thank you all for the valuable information and the knowledge to put this firearm back into service!!!

RalphK22 · #10 02-08-2015, 08:24 PM

So then the problem is when you are using the double action mode? That is aliitle beyond my limited knowledge, especially on a Colt.

Otreb · #11 02-08-2015, 08:36 PM

If you slowly draw the hammer back without manipulating the trigger, the bolt should engage the stop....sometimes when they're slightly out of time, it doesn't and you can slightly nudge the cylinder into engagement. It may be first noticeable on one or a few chambers only.When the trigger is pulled back, there should be no play.
I can only wonder if some attempt at an action job was botched if the bolt engagement fails in DA.

Ben_hutcherson · #12 02-08-2015, 09:48 PM

The problem could be related to hand peening, or to the bolt dropping too early or late.

I once fitted a new bolt in an Official Police from an oversized replacement. While I enjoy fiddly jobs(I'm a watchmaker), I can tell you that it took me about 10 hours and a LOT of trial and error to get it right. I'm glad I had the chance to do it, and I had the opportunity to learn a lot about Colt lockwork in the process. It's also worth mentioning that if you go a little bit too far, you've ruined the $40 replacement bolt. It's not something I'd recommend for the faint of heart.

By the way, I've owned two PPSs, one from that I still have from the late '20s and the other(since sold) from the mid '30s. Both had the "fouling cup" over the forcing cone.

stringpicker · #13 02-08-2015, 10:12 PM

Those old Colts are worth repairing...which is what I suggest you do before you take it to the range again. As stated, the timing appears to be off. If I had my FFL (waiting on approval) I'd offer to repair it for you just for the experience...you don't seem to be too far from me.

Cheesemonger · #14 02-08-2015, 11:16 PM

stringpicker, to have the confidence to take on such a project just for the "experience" is beyond commendable! I can picture myself opening this revolver up wearing a surgeons mask and having springs, metal pieces and Skittles leaping out as sooon as I pulled the sideplate off! The tidbits my dog didn't eat (she loves wheel bearing grease...that's a whole 'nuther story) would promptly be poured into the trash can with the frame going to my local PD!!!

stringpicker · #15 02-09-2015, 03:53 PM

Thanks for the laugh. LOL

My 28 years as a Designer/Toolmaker has given me the ability to have such confidence. Firearms seem quite complicated to many, but in my eyes, they are quite simple. I've designed and built complicated mechanically and electrically operated automation and robotic systems with lobes, gears, springs, pneumatic and hydraulic systems, and survived the insanity of it all. Timing issues are generally the most difficult...but manageable.

Cheesemonger · #16 02-09-2015, 10:18 PM

Well stringpicker, it sure is nice having someone with your experience and credentials on this forum...which is EXACTLY why I'm here!!!! Thanks again for your help, can't convey exactly how much I appreciate it!

alwslate · #17 02-10-2015, 09:20 AM

I think you can safely shoot the gun as is if you want. Just stick to
standard pressure lead bullet loads or handloads and single action.
Just make sure the cyl locks up before you pull the trigger even if you
have to nudge it into place. Timing seems to be a very common
problem with many older Colts, especially the smaller frames. Getting
it fixed properly could be difficult period, and not cost effective.
Plink with it and use something else for more serious purposes.

Andrew2105 · #18 02-10-2015, 02:55 PM

When you get the PPS back in operation I would suggest operating it with TLC. This is an older gun (older metallurgy) with a sensitive delicate action & a bit thinner cylinder walls. I'd try to stick to low power loads along the lines of what was common when this gun was new & not overdo your rounds fired. A long time ago, (1970's) I was the proud? owner of a Colt Agent. Seemed like a nice gun. Same platform as your PPS. Alloy frame & removable hammer shroud. Timing went off & it broke two firing pins. Switched to a M36 SB & sold the Colt. I suppose it's worth more than the $75.00 I sold it for but it ticked me off & good riddance to an unreliable carry gun. I did get warranty service before I foisted it off on someone who didn't care about my warning.