F75gunslinger
Member
Just wondered if anyone has one or has shot them and what you think of them. Local seller wants $250 for the gun, holster, 2 magazines and 7 boxes of ammo.
Looking at a FEG PA-63 in 9x18 Makarov...
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jmace57
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I had one and used it for my carry gun for a year. It is fairly snappy. It never failed to fire. The price seems to be about the normal price - I would have said $225 nowadays. With the mags and probably $80 or $90 of ammo...not a bad deal at all.
italiansport
Member
I have used one on an off as a pocket carry pistol and I can make the following observations:
They are reliable and mine has never jammed or failed to fire.
With an alloy frame in 9mm Makarov a few mags out of one of these will numb your hand. A plinker it is not.
Overall a decent concealed carry pistol that's reasonably accurate at close(combat) distances and that's why I continue to carry mine.
Jim
They are reliable and mine has never jammed or failed to fire.
With an alloy frame in 9mm Makarov a few mags out of one of these will numb your hand. A plinker it is not.
Overall a decent concealed carry pistol that's reasonably accurate at close(combat) distances and that's why I continue to carry mine.
Jim
Double action trigger from hell but single action not bad. I prefer the Makarov for 9x18 use.
I have never fired one live, but have dry-fired about six. They all had a god-awful double-action trigger, worse even than a PPK and that is saying something. I would go with a Makarov. In fact I own two of those. I passed on the FEG.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I have a friend on the Net who is a lawyer in Budapest. Her father carried one as a Hungarian officer. I got her to ask his opinion.
He said that it was hard to shoot and kicked. But he had no other handgun experience.
Gun writer Mike Venturino wrote a column on his somewhere, and if I have the model right, he likes it and uses it as a car gun. His may be a .380 version.
I think there was trouble with the alloy receivers, improved by the addition of some other alloy. But I don't know how to tell which examples use which alloys. Someone here probably knows.
He said that it was hard to shoot and kicked. But he had no other handgun experience.
Gun writer Mike Venturino wrote a column on his somewhere, and if I have the model right, he likes it and uses it as a car gun. His may be a .380 version.
I think there was trouble with the alloy receivers, improved by the addition of some other alloy. But I don't know how to tell which examples use which alloys. Someone here probably knows.
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mrrick
Member
There are plenty of all steel Bulagrian, Czech and Polish 9x18s out there. A better choice IMHO.
Nothing wrong with FEG, I have a great Hi-Power by them. Just prefer all steel in a small gun.
I have a Bugarian and an E.german Makarov. The AKs of commie handguns.
Nothing wrong with FEG, I have a great Hi-Power by them. Just prefer all steel in a small gun.
I have a Bugarian and an E.german Makarov. The AKs of commie handguns.
I have a P-64 (PPK Clone in Mak) and have shot the Pa-63. I like them as a 'fun' 'C&R' gun to put a few (emphasis on FEW) rounds through on range day. They are snappy little beasts.
I'm currently looking for a good price (tag+S/H+FFL) on a P-83 Wanad.
I'm currently looking for a good price (tag+S/H+FFL) on a P-83 Wanad.
Tex1001
Member
I have the 380 version. If your model has the alloy frame it will probably kick like a mule. This is based on my P64 with a steel frame. Very reliable. The double action trigger can be lightened. Whether or not you should for the 9x18, I don't know
Warning!
I have not seen magazines for any of the FEGs, 380 or 9x18, 6 or 7 rounders in years!
_______________________
I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.
Warning!
I have not seen magazines for any of the FEGs, 380 or 9x18, 6 or 7 rounders in years!
_______________________
I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.
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bvd1
Member
The problem was with the FEG RK59 frame which was 100% aluminum and they wore fast. This was a smaller model with a 6 round magazine. The later FEGs had some alloy added to the aluminum, I forget what, and they are fine.
I owned several 9x18 FEGs, including a PA63, and all functioned fine but I sold them and now have only surplus Makarovs in 9x18 caliber.
I wish I had kept my FEG SMC918 which was the smaller model with the 6 round mag and flat grips.
That is a good price with the holster and ammo.
There are flat grips, that is no thumb rest, for the PA63 but they are hard to find.
.
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OP
F75gunslinger
Member
I've done some reading..seems there are spring kits available for the trigger...the alloy frame issue was fixed before the pa63 in a previous model and it comes with 2 mags..so should be OK there...I appreciate all the input guys..
bigmatt17073
Member
I had one in 9mm Mak and installed an extra power recoil spring and the reduced power hammer spring. It helped some, but the DA pull was absolutely horrible even after the spring change (scale maxes out at 12lbs and it was still higher). The SA is decent though and it was 100% reliable with any thing I ever fed it. It is the only gun I've sold as it was unpleasant to shoot. I still have a CZ82 in 9mm Mak and that is a far superior gun, and will probably end up with an actual Makarov eventually.
bvd1
Member
I recently bought these two P-83s at a great price, on a local gun forum, a commercial and a surplus. Each included two matching numbered mags.
I'm a big fan of the steel framed FÉG PP and PPK/S clone pistols.
In general the FÉG pistols have a number of models that are frequently confused:
Walam 48M
This was an almost direct copy of the Walther PP chambered in 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) produced from 1946-59. Most parts will interchange with a Walther PP.
RK-59
This is a shorter PPK length slide pistol built on an aluminum frame and chambered in 9mm Makarov. It's still based on the Walther design but you first see the more squared contours of the short PPK length slide FÉG pistols on this model. They also have a short grip and a 6 round magazine. The short grip makes it a bit of a handful with 9mm Mak.
This model also introduced the FÉG passive firing pin safety. The rear of the firing pin of the FÉG is below the line of the hammer face when the hammer is uncocked, and raises up in line with the hammer face when cocked, unlike the PP series, where the firing pin is always in line with the hammer face.
The RK-59 was only produced a couple years as the aluminum alloy used gave a very short useful life.
R-61
The R-61 is a redesigned RK-59 that used about 1% titanium in the aluminum alloy, and employed redesigned bearing surfaces for the slide to improve disability of the frame. This model was first produced in 1961 (you're probably starting to see the pattern here)and introduced the two tone blued slide and the white frame that is associated with the FÉG PA-63, so confusion starts to occur at this point.
Some R-61s were also produced for commercial sale about 10 years ago with an all black finish.
Some R-61s were also re-barreled by their importers for .380 ACP, but still remain the "9mm M" slide stamp, so if you get an R-61, check the chamber to determine whether it's a 9mm Mak or a .380 ACP.
PA-63
The PA-63 was produced from 1963-1990 and was the official Hungarian sidearm until 1996. It represented a return to the PP length slide and had a longer grip with a 7 round magazine. Most of them had blued steel slides with in the white aluminum/titanium frames, although the later PA-63s had black anodized frames.
The "PA-63" was also produced in a two tone police version as well as single and two tone commercial versions. The police and commercial pistols are properly called "AP-63" pistols and are marked as such, but they are almost universally called "PA-63" pistols.
You'll also find commercial versions of the PA-63 stamped "PPH". These have black anodized titanium/aluminum frames and are chambered in .380 ACP - the major difference from the AP-63. I see this on Interterms imported pistols and I suspect it stands for "PP Hungarian", but that's just a guess.
It gets more confusing as some older pistols were rebuilt on the PA-63 frame, so you'll see some PA-63s with short RK-59 and R-61 slides, as well as some older Walam 48M slides on a PA-63 frame. They are parts guns, but they are most likely arsenal assembled parts guns.
All of the above have a very distinct recurve to the rear of the grip frame, much more so than a Walther or the earlier RK-59 and R-61 pistols. A few AP-63s were imported by Century Arms International with a hump on the front strap that creates what amounts to finger grooves.
The AP-63 and PA-63 pistols are chambered in 9mm Makarov.
AP7 series - AP7, AP7S, APK7 and APK7S
The AP7 is a commercial version of the PA-63 that was first produced in 1967. They are chambered in 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) and the difference is in the frame material. The "AP7" uses a black anodized titanium/aluminum alloy frame while the "AP7S" uses a steel frame - thus the "S" in the model number. Both these pistols have PP length slides.
The APK7 and APK7S pistols have the shorter PPK/R-59/R-61 slide with the "K" designating the short slide.
Unlike the PA-63 and AP-63 these pistols have a grip frame with a straight back strap and it's the surest way to tell them apart from an AP-63 or a PA-63. Still, they frequently get mis-identified as PA-63 pistols.
The AP7 magazine is externally identical to the PA-63 and AP9 magazines with the exception of an extra witness hole for an 8th round, and slightly narrower feed lips for the 7.65mm cartridge. An AP9/PA-63 magazine almost but does not quite work in an AP7 as the wider lips allow the last few rounds to mis feed.
AP9 series - AP9, AP9S, APK9, APK9S, AP9-M, APK9-M
These pistols were also produced starting in 1967 and they are identical to the 7 models, except for caliber. The "9" series pistols are chambered in both .380 ACP and 9mm Makaraov, and the "M" denotes 9mm Makarov. The "M" pistols are all steel framed, thus no "S".
The AP9 series pistols use the same 7 round magazine as the PA-63 and they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.
AP99
The AP99 is essentially identical to the AP9 and I suspect the change in model number was at the request of Interterms as the importer of what they called their "Mark II" pistols.
RL-61
This is an R-61 chambered in .22LR, sometimes called the LR-61. The steel slide is milled on the exterior to thin the metal to reduce the weight for proper function with .22 LR and like the R-61 is has the short PPK length slide and grip.
AP22
This is essentially an RL-61 marked AP22, I suspect at the request of the importer, like the AP99.
SMC
KBI imported alloy frame commercial versions of the R-61 in .380 ACP, 9mm Mak and .22LR as the SMC 380, SMC 918 and SMC .22 LR. They just barely meet the GCA '68 form factor due to the grip width and finger extension magazine, and they are the smallest pistols imported into the US since 1968.
More name confusion
Kassanar (owner of KBI had a habit of naming pistols after the initials of family members and friends - thus "SMC" became the model number with no relationship to anything in particular other than a person's initials.
You'll also encounter "PMK" pistols sold by KBI. This refers to various RK-59, R-61 and AP-63 pistols imported by KBI and again is based on a person's initials.
P-64 (not an FÉG pistol)
The P-64 is often mistaken for an FÉG pistol. It's not, mostly because it is made in Poland at the Łucznik Arms Factory and was designed in the late 1950s to an original design.
Still, some people will argue with you if you point those things out.
Differences between the AP and PP series pistols
In general the FÉG AP series pistols differ from the Walther PP in having just a bit more bulk in the slide and frame, due to the design accommodating the more powerful (in Europe) 9mm Makarov cartridge.
Walther PP on the left, FÉG AP on the right:
FÉG AP on the top, Walther PP on the bottom:
The chambers in the FÉG .32 ACP and .380 ACP pistols are also a bit more generous than the Walther .32 ACP and .380 ACP chambers. On the one hand this makes them relentlessly reliable, but on the other hand, brass life is a little shorter. Both the AP and PP series pistols are however very accurate.
The slight increase in weight makes them more enjoyable to shoot in .380 ACP and overall I like them as well as my Walther pistols when shooting them.
A note on quality
Quality varies on the commercial FÉG pistols imported into the US, but the triggers on the commercial imports are generally better than on the military pistols. The three I own are equal to the triggers on the four PP and PPK/S pistols I own.
Pistols imported by Interarms were exceptionally well made and finished in a extremely nice deep blue on a highly polished frame and slide.
Those imported by Tennessee Guns International (TGI) on the other hand are not as nicely finished, lack the firing pin safety, lack the texture on the sight rib, have some edges left sharp enough to cut, and the lines on the slide are not as straight - an artifact of less care/attention to detail in the polish.
Interarms APK9 on the top, TGI APK7 on the bottom:
Interarms on the left, TGI on the right:
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h470/SDBB57/9E0671F8-E03D-4A5D-AC5D-9448D0104EC5_zpsanu16abn.jpg[/IMG
TGI on the left, Interarms on the right:
[IMG]http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h470/SDBB57/8B50AC2B-0C44-4ED5-B75E-1BA372B57A8C_zpsjovvnq5p.jpg
Great values
In general, even though the Interarms pistols have not been imported since 1998, you can still find excellent conduction to NIB condition AP series pistols for $350, and you can find KBI and TGI imported pistols in the same condition for around $300.
All of them are great shooters, while the Interarms pistols are very nicely made pistols by any standard.
Interarms APK9S:
In general the FÉG pistols have a number of models that are frequently confused:
Walam 48M
This was an almost direct copy of the Walther PP chambered in 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) produced from 1946-59. Most parts will interchange with a Walther PP.
RK-59
This is a shorter PPK length slide pistol built on an aluminum frame and chambered in 9mm Makarov. It's still based on the Walther design but you first see the more squared contours of the short PPK length slide FÉG pistols on this model. They also have a short grip and a 6 round magazine. The short grip makes it a bit of a handful with 9mm Mak.
This model also introduced the FÉG passive firing pin safety. The rear of the firing pin of the FÉG is below the line of the hammer face when the hammer is uncocked, and raises up in line with the hammer face when cocked, unlike the PP series, where the firing pin is always in line with the hammer face.
The RK-59 was only produced a couple years as the aluminum alloy used gave a very short useful life.
R-61
The R-61 is a redesigned RK-59 that used about 1% titanium in the aluminum alloy, and employed redesigned bearing surfaces for the slide to improve disability of the frame. This model was first produced in 1961 (you're probably starting to see the pattern here)and introduced the two tone blued slide and the white frame that is associated with the FÉG PA-63, so confusion starts to occur at this point.
Some R-61s were also produced for commercial sale about 10 years ago with an all black finish.
Some R-61s were also re-barreled by their importers for .380 ACP, but still remain the "9mm M" slide stamp, so if you get an R-61, check the chamber to determine whether it's a 9mm Mak or a .380 ACP.
PA-63
The PA-63 was produced from 1963-1990 and was the official Hungarian sidearm until 1996. It represented a return to the PP length slide and had a longer grip with a 7 round magazine. Most of them had blued steel slides with in the white aluminum/titanium frames, although the later PA-63s had black anodized frames.
The "PA-63" was also produced in a two tone police version as well as single and two tone commercial versions. The police and commercial pistols are properly called "AP-63" pistols and are marked as such, but they are almost universally called "PA-63" pistols.
You'll also find commercial versions of the PA-63 stamped "PPH". These have black anodized titanium/aluminum frames and are chambered in .380 ACP - the major difference from the AP-63. I see this on Interterms imported pistols and I suspect it stands for "PP Hungarian", but that's just a guess.
It gets more confusing as some older pistols were rebuilt on the PA-63 frame, so you'll see some PA-63s with short RK-59 and R-61 slides, as well as some older Walam 48M slides on a PA-63 frame. They are parts guns, but they are most likely arsenal assembled parts guns.
All of the above have a very distinct recurve to the rear of the grip frame, much more so than a Walther or the earlier RK-59 and R-61 pistols. A few AP-63s were imported by Century Arms International with a hump on the front strap that creates what amounts to finger grooves.
The AP-63 and PA-63 pistols are chambered in 9mm Makarov.
AP7 series - AP7, AP7S, APK7 and APK7S
The AP7 is a commercial version of the PA-63 that was first produced in 1967. They are chambered in 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) and the difference is in the frame material. The "AP7" uses a black anodized titanium/aluminum alloy frame while the "AP7S" uses a steel frame - thus the "S" in the model number. Both these pistols have PP length slides.
The APK7 and APK7S pistols have the shorter PPK/R-59/R-61 slide with the "K" designating the short slide.
Unlike the PA-63 and AP-63 these pistols have a grip frame with a straight back strap and it's the surest way to tell them apart from an AP-63 or a PA-63. Still, they frequently get mis-identified as PA-63 pistols.
The AP7 magazine is externally identical to the PA-63 and AP9 magazines with the exception of an extra witness hole for an 8th round, and slightly narrower feed lips for the 7.65mm cartridge. An AP9/PA-63 magazine almost but does not quite work in an AP7 as the wider lips allow the last few rounds to mis feed.
AP9 series - AP9, AP9S, APK9, APK9S, AP9-M, APK9-M
These pistols were also produced starting in 1967 and they are identical to the 7 models, except for caliber. The "9" series pistols are chambered in both .380 ACP and 9mm Makaraov, and the "M" denotes 9mm Makarov. The "M" pistols are all steel framed, thus no "S".
The AP9 series pistols use the same 7 round magazine as the PA-63 and they are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.
AP99
The AP99 is essentially identical to the AP9 and I suspect the change in model number was at the request of Interterms as the importer of what they called their "Mark II" pistols.
RL-61
This is an R-61 chambered in .22LR, sometimes called the LR-61. The steel slide is milled on the exterior to thin the metal to reduce the weight for proper function with .22 LR and like the R-61 is has the short PPK length slide and grip.
AP22
This is essentially an RL-61 marked AP22, I suspect at the request of the importer, like the AP99.
SMC
KBI imported alloy frame commercial versions of the R-61 in .380 ACP, 9mm Mak and .22LR as the SMC 380, SMC 918 and SMC .22 LR. They just barely meet the GCA '68 form factor due to the grip width and finger extension magazine, and they are the smallest pistols imported into the US since 1968.
More name confusion
Kassanar (owner of KBI had a habit of naming pistols after the initials of family members and friends - thus "SMC" became the model number with no relationship to anything in particular other than a person's initials.
You'll also encounter "PMK" pistols sold by KBI. This refers to various RK-59, R-61 and AP-63 pistols imported by KBI and again is based on a person's initials.
P-64 (not an FÉG pistol)
The P-64 is often mistaken for an FÉG pistol. It's not, mostly because it is made in Poland at the Łucznik Arms Factory and was designed in the late 1950s to an original design.
Still, some people will argue with you if you point those things out.
Differences between the AP and PP series pistols
In general the FÉG AP series pistols differ from the Walther PP in having just a bit more bulk in the slide and frame, due to the design accommodating the more powerful (in Europe) 9mm Makarov cartridge.
Walther PP on the left, FÉG AP on the right:
FÉG AP on the top, Walther PP on the bottom:
The chambers in the FÉG .32 ACP and .380 ACP pistols are also a bit more generous than the Walther .32 ACP and .380 ACP chambers. On the one hand this makes them relentlessly reliable, but on the other hand, brass life is a little shorter. Both the AP and PP series pistols are however very accurate.
The slight increase in weight makes them more enjoyable to shoot in .380 ACP and overall I like them as well as my Walther pistols when shooting them.
A note on quality
Quality varies on the commercial FÉG pistols imported into the US, but the triggers on the commercial imports are generally better than on the military pistols. The three I own are equal to the triggers on the four PP and PPK/S pistols I own.
Pistols imported by Interarms were exceptionally well made and finished in a extremely nice deep blue on a highly polished frame and slide.
Those imported by Tennessee Guns International (TGI) on the other hand are not as nicely finished, lack the firing pin safety, lack the texture on the sight rib, have some edges left sharp enough to cut, and the lines on the slide are not as straight - an artifact of less care/attention to detail in the polish.
Interarms APK9 on the top, TGI APK7 on the bottom:
Interarms on the left, TGI on the right:
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h470/SDBB57/9E0671F8-E03D-4A5D-AC5D-9448D0104EC5_zpsanu16abn.jpg[/IMG
TGI on the left, Interarms on the right:
[IMG]http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h470/SDBB57/8B50AC2B-0C44-4ED5-B75E-1BA372B57A8C_zpsjovvnq5p.jpg
Great values
In general, even though the Interarms pistols have not been imported since 1998, you can still find excellent conduction to NIB condition AP series pistols for $350, and you can find KBI and TGI imported pistols in the same condition for around $300.
All of them are great shooters, while the Interarms pistols are very nicely made pistols by any standard.
Interarms APK9S:
Erich
Member
For kicks, here's a photo of my R61 (which, as others have explained, is the PPK-sized version compared to the PA-63's PP-sized version):
Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the FEG designs' ergonomics are superior to the Walthers - which only makes sense, as they came out 30-odd years later. The quality of craftsmanship, well . . . it depends on the gun. I have found FEG reliability in 9x18 or .380 to be superior to the .380 Walther's as well (never shot one of the Smith & Walthers, tho, so not talking about those - just the German and stainless American-made Interarms/Ranger guns). And I'm talking ball rounds - I do not use hollowpoints in any of the low-mass/low velocity rounds used in these pocket blowbacks (though as an OT aside, the Inceptor ARX rounds look like they actually may be worth a look - Shooting The Bull's report on the .380 version shows they make FBI penetration depths, and they were accurate and very reliable in my testing).
My experience has been that the PA-63s were largely reliable - don't fool with the springs, or you might change that. I've seen some with wear in the Ti/aluminum frame where the feed ramp goes - not sure whether that was due to shaving from many steel cartridge cases or foolhardy attempts by owners to "gunsmith" the things. I agree the recoil may feel sharp - it doesn't trouble me, but I've heard griping about it since the early '90s (so it bothers some folks). The serrated trigger faces are stupid, but what are you gonna do? The trigger pulls are sometimes jaggedy and sometimes smooth - check the gun. Again, I would not change out trigger or hammer springs: the gun is engineered to work a certain way, and I don't want to risk reliable function by second-guessing the designers because I'm too much of a delicate flower to master a trigger pull. I've found these guns to be largely accurate with ammo they like. The ammo is not as cheap as it used to be (man, Mak ammo was cheap for a while!), but it's still not terrible. The guns are not as cheap as they used to be ($99 with two mags and a seriously used holster) but what is?
Anyhow, I have a fond feeling for the FEGs and enjoy and trust the one (the R61 pictured above) I keep around.
Honestly, I'm of the opinion that the FEG designs' ergonomics are superior to the Walthers - which only makes sense, as they came out 30-odd years later. The quality of craftsmanship, well . . . it depends on the gun. I have found FEG reliability in 9x18 or .380 to be superior to the .380 Walther's as well (never shot one of the Smith & Walthers, tho, so not talking about those - just the German and stainless American-made Interarms/Ranger guns). And I'm talking ball rounds - I do not use hollowpoints in any of the low-mass/low velocity rounds used in these pocket blowbacks (though as an OT aside, the Inceptor ARX rounds look like they actually may be worth a look - Shooting The Bull's report on the .380 version shows they make FBI penetration depths, and they were accurate and very reliable in my testing).
My experience has been that the PA-63s were largely reliable - don't fool with the springs, or you might change that. I've seen some with wear in the Ti/aluminum frame where the feed ramp goes - not sure whether that was due to shaving from many steel cartridge cases or foolhardy attempts by owners to "gunsmith" the things. I agree the recoil may feel sharp - it doesn't trouble me, but I've heard griping about it since the early '90s (so it bothers some folks). The serrated trigger faces are stupid, but what are you gonna do? The trigger pulls are sometimes jaggedy and sometimes smooth - check the gun. Again, I would not change out trigger or hammer springs: the gun is engineered to work a certain way, and I don't want to risk reliable function by second-guessing the designers because I'm too much of a delicate flower to master a trigger pull. I've found these guns to be largely accurate with ammo they like. The ammo is not as cheap as it used to be (man, Mak ammo was cheap for a while!), but it's still not terrible. The guns are not as cheap as they used to be ($99 with two mags and a seriously used holster) but what is?
Anyhow, I have a fond feeling for the FEGs and enjoy and trust the one (the R61 pictured above) I keep around.
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BigBill
Absent Comrade
I have a little yugo not sure what the number is. The cz50/cz70 are ok. The cz82 is awesome but larger.
OP
F75gunslinger
Member
So after careful thought I figured WTH and bought the gun. Nice little package, haven't fired it yet. The guy had 3 boxes of Brown Bear hollowpoints, 3 boxes of Silver Bear roundnose and a box of Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoints that he threw in with it as well as a spare mag and a holster. Tore it all apart and gave it a good cleaning after i got it home. Quite happy with it overall for the money. Thank you to all who offered advice !
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