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Old 06-21-2015, 02:18 PM
beetledude beetledude is offline
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Default White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s

Reposting some stuff I've written in the past for other forums. Hope you enjoy it!

In today's story we are going to fast forward from my normal realm of early automatics all the way to the 1980s. Yes we are talking about the decade of bad hair, bad clothes, and one badass gun that was the superstar of the era. but I'm getting ahead of myself. let's start with the back story.

Colonel Jeff Cooper was a United States Marine and is acknowledged to be one of the creators of the "modern style" of pistol shooting in which the arm is raised and the pistol is aligned with your line of sight.

In addition, Cooper is credited with codifying other firearm concepts that we take as basic today -- for example, the 4 rules of safety and the "condition" terminology for handguns (condition 1 - locked and cocked), etc.

Colonel Jeff Cooper


Cooper taught these techniques at his Gunsite academy in Arizona. Then and even now Jeff Cooper and his Gunsite academy were thought of as experts on the use of small arms.

In the early part of the decade Cooper came across the pistol designed by Josef and Frantisek Koucky and manufactured by Ceska Zbrojovoka - the CZ 75. Cooper thought of it as a superior design lending itself well to the high two-handed grasp he taught at Gunsite. In addition Cooper liked the fact that it could be carried in Condition 1 - locked and cocked. His main disagreement with the CZ 75 was that it was chambered in what he considered to be a small caliber round, 9mm.

One of the principles of Cooper's teaching was the use of a large caliber pistol because he felt that it was important to use the largest quantity of force to stop even the most determined attacker. Cooper exclaimed that a CZ 75 design combined with a large caliber cartridge would be a significant step forward in combat handguns.

Two entrepreneurs heard Cooper's call and reached out to him -- a partnership was born. The entrepreneurs were Thomas Dornaus and Michael Dixon. At the early stages of their collaboration the partners asked what caliber the gun should be designed around, .45ACP or something more? Supposedly Cooper responded that the gun should be as powerful as they could make it. With the help of ammunition manufacturer Norma, 10mm was born.

Cooper became the pistol's leading proponent, carrying it, teaching with it, and lecturing law enforcement on its praises. He was fond of sharing the fact that the 10mm had more muzzle energy at 100 yards then .45ACP did at the muzzle.

This is my Bren Ten, which I purchased from a Calguns collector. Everything is in fantastic shape, even the utilitarian box (which is valuable to collectors and impossible to find today).



The gun is named "Bren Ten" for two reasons. Obviously the "Ten" is a reference to the new 10mm cartridge. The term "Bren" was coined by the British as a combination of "BRNO and Enfield" -- the Bren light machine gun was based on a BRNO design with modifications by Enfield. BRNO is the center of the Czech gun manufacturing area where CZ is located. How's that for obscure connections on how the name Bren Ten came about?



Let's take a closer look at the gun. Because of the connection to Cooper, his Gunsite logo was featured prominently on the frame itself.



One of the stranger aspects of the design was an additional "cross bolt safety". Not only did the gun have a traditional thumb safety, but also an additional cross bolt safety that when activated prevented the hammer from striking the firing pin. Perhaps Dornaus and Dixon felt that this additional safety was needed to prevent accidental discharge in case the gun was dropped. For whatever reason it was added this cross bolt safety added a lot of mechanical complexity and user confusion.



To fire the gun you have to release the thumb safety (where the red dot is) as well as push in the cross bolt safety from the other side of the frame.



The gun has a rather unique muzzle.



The Miami Vice Connection
Miami Vice hit the airwaves in 1984. In the original pilot Sonny Crockett used a Sig P220. However when the Pilot was picked up it was decided that he should carry a state-of-the-art weapon. 1984 was when the Bren Ten first hit the market so it was a natural pick for the TV show.



Trouble in Paradise
Even with the gun's prominent positioning in Miami Vice, there was soon trouble in paradise. Dornaus and Dixon had outsourced the magazines to MecGar in Italy. Perhaps they tried to get too clever. The original magazine was dual caliber .45 and 10mm. It had overlapping feed lips which could feed both. However, it turned out that the feed lips would get bent out of shape after only a few firings of 10mm. A nasty spat arose between Dornaus & Dixon and Mecgar. It was messy situation with D&D refusing payment and MecGar confiscating shipments in customs.

It was a bad situation for buyers. The guns had already been prepaid by buyers (mainly because of Cooper's reputation). But when the guns were delivered the box often had no magazines. The gun community was outraged.

D&D had to find another magazine source fast. Instead of buying fully manufactured magazines, they were forced to buy components and assemble the magazines themselves. In a comedy of errors the floor plates were not in spec and would cause the magazines to drop out when firing. D&D "fixed" this by affixing two pins on the floor plates to apply additional pressure on the frame.



The whole magazine debacle was probably the final straw and D&D closed shop in 1986 with just about 1500 Bren Tens manufactured. As the saying goes "the best way to make a little money in the gun business.... is to start with a lot of money."

There have been attempts to resurrect the Bren Ten recently, first by Peregrine systems and then later by Vltor. Perhaps the curse of the Bren Ten is still in play as both attempts have faded into obscurity. Maybe CZ will one day make a version in 10mm, removing the need for a "CZ clone".

Whatever the case, the Bren Ten's legacy will continue. It will always be the gun that introduced the 10mm cartridge, and if you are a 80s kid like me, Sonny Crockett's gun.

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Old 06-21-2015, 02:19 PM
beetledude beetledude is offline
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You should read the article with this music playing in the background

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Old 06-21-2015, 02:26 PM
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I like the 10mm caliber. Never cared for the Bren 10. One, I find it ugly. Two, way too complicated. DA and SA system, two safeties, c'mon. KISS.

The problem with the magazines was well known. Not only did many not work, but they were hard to get. Some new guns were delivered with no magazine at all. In one episode of Miami Vice Crockett throws a magazine into the ocean. Bren 10 owners across the nation groaned in agony at the sight of functioning magazine going into the drink.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:17 PM
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Thanks for the write-up beetledude. Your "wordsmithing" skills pop-out as very professional.

While I was never a particular fan of Miami Vice, it did have some long lasting iconic features. As to that, I see advertisements about an upcoming T V series starring the long absent from public, Don Johnson.
He actually had a pretty strong acting background before landing that long running hit.

I am, as most fans of the 1911 style pistol, familiar with the writings of Jeff Cooper..... Somehow, I expect his USMC personality, (as a follow my orders Lt. Col.) would "over-ride" most opinions that differed from his; but, I never met the man, nor had a differing opinion so I can't say.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetledude View Post
...the Bren Ten's legacy will continue. It will always be the gun that introduced the 10mm cartridge, and if you are a 80s kid like me, Sonny Crockett's gun.
Most definitely! I loved Miami Vice. It was a cutting edge series in a lot of ways. I still watch it...have the first season on DVD...keep meaning to buy more. Any time I need an eighties fix, I put the disc in the player and crank up the volume when the opening scenes/theme music come on.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:51 PM
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Interesting, informative article. Thanks.

"Miami Vice" was a really dumb show in my opinion, but I admit to having watched it. If only so I could ask, "How does a vice cop who isn't on the take live on a sailboat and drive a Ferrari, much less pack a Bren Ten?" This was never answered to my satisfaction.
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Old 06-21-2015, 04:14 PM
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Thanks for the interesting article. I haven't thought about the Bren 10 in some time, let alone Miami Vice.
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Old 06-21-2015, 04:53 PM
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Beetle dude, Cool article, as a young cop in the early 80's, let me tell you we used to have Miami Vice parties. Although we wore socks Disco was King . HA!
I heard somewhere that the original BREN gun used in the series was a .45 cal . Maybe thats why Sonny finally went to 645 then 4506 later in the show.
Ive been cleaning out my desk in preparation to retire.Somewhere in my stuff, I just saw an original BREN catalog.Dont know the year. I dont collect them, so If you will PM me your address I will be glad to send it to you, if you want it ,its in great shape.
Thanks for the Flashback, those were good times. Bob
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rog8732 View Post
Thanks for the write-up beetledude. Your "wordsmithing" skills pop-out as very professional.
Thank you for the nice complement! One day after I retire I might actually try writing gun articles....

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Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Interesting, informative article. Thanks.

"Miami Vice" was a really dumb show in my opinion, but I admit to having watched it. If only so I could ask, "How does a vice cop who isn't on the take live on a sailboat and drive a Ferrari, much less pack a Bren Ten?" This was never answered to my satisfaction.
I just assumed that those items belonged to the department as a part of his cover. As an adolescent teen I focused on other parts of the show

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Beetle dude, Cool article, as a young cop in the early 80's, let me tell you we used to have Miami Vice parties. Although we wore socks Disco was King . HA!
I heard somewhere that the original BREN gun used in the series was a .45 cal . Maybe thats why Sonny finally went to 645 then 4506 later in the show.
Ive been cleaning out my desk in preparation to retire.Somewhere in my stuff, I just saw an original BREN catalog.Dont know the year. I dont collect them, so If you will PM me your address I will be glad to send it to you, if you want it ,its in great shape.
Thanks for the Flashback, those were good times. Bob
Bob thanks for the terrific offer. An original Bren catalog would go nicely with the rest of the kit. PM sent! Thank you!!!!

Yes the 10mm version was so hard to get that they just ended up using the .45 version for the TV show (and it was easier to get blanks, etc). They also chromed the slide to make it stand out more in night scenes. Today Bren collectors call post-factory chromed guns as being "viced". Only one version of the gun was not in the standard blue -- the Special Forces Light (my gun pictured). In this case the "Light" refers to the color of the gun and not the weight.

Last edited by beetledude; 06-21-2015 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:31 PM
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Very nice write up!

I've never seen a Miami Vise episode (was watching to much Adam-12 and Roy Rogers episodes. ) but you have made me want to look it up.
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:43 PM
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Nice article (and SFL Bren). The Bren Ten also came with what is arguably the most informative owner's manual ever (over 46 pages long).


Last edited by koz5614; 06-23-2015 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Better with photos
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Old 06-21-2015, 10:01 PM
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Great thread....I remember the "Bren Ten" from back in the day although never had any interest in it or the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm other than appreciating their uniqueness.

I do remember not carrying anything less than a 14 shot Model 59 when visiting Miami as it was a dangerous place to visit back then IMO.

Broward County was bad enough with the Miami spill over....: )
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Old 06-21-2015, 10:22 PM
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We used to joke that Sonny Crockett was the only Bren Ten owner with more than one magazine!
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Old 06-21-2015, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SaxonPig View Post
In one episode of Miami Vice Crockett throws a magazine into the ocean. Bren 10 owners across the nation groaned in agony at the sight of functioning magazine going into the drink.
Let's hope they used a 1911 mag as a stand-in.
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Old 06-21-2015, 11:42 PM
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I enjoyed that show a lot. I watch it now in the morning on El Ray.

I have had five Brens in my time. My first was a SFL, #84SFL0300. I still have the NY State pistol permit stub, but sadly, not the gun. I had three mags for it AND a .45 conversion slide. I also had two Marksman Specials - which were .45's.

That original Norma ammo was hot!

Shouldazagged (love that name) - I'm pretty sure it was actually mentioned in the show (in fact, I think Crockett says something about the department owning his clothes at one point) that the boat, cars, watches and clothes were all part of the cover. Even so, it is kind of like watching good scifi, you just have to suspend belief for a while!

(Cue the theme song...)
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:12 AM
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There was a topic on the SigForum awhile back, discussing whether 'Miami Vice' is watchable today or not, well being a good Reagan Baby, I defended it and said "Heck yeah it is!", in no small part due to the unique selection of weaponry Michael Mann would choose week to week.

Frankly, the Bren Ten is a Holy Grail gun for me, don't care how imperfect it is. It's more important now as a icon of firearms history, the 10mm caliber and the 80's generation than it is an actual shootable pistol, IMHO.

Nice written summary, thanks for sharing!
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:32 AM
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I was at Gunsight when the Bren 10 was introduced. I was not very impressed. I later bought a Colt Delta Elite and actually carried it CCW for a while. I also met the good Lt. Col. Cooper several times and just learned to avoid him if possible. I still like the 10mm cartridge very much and now when I feel the need for a very powerful cartridge, I carry my S&W 1066....

beetledude: My complements on a very well written, illustrated and organized essay. You should look into writing more of same.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
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We used to joke that Sonny Crockett was the only Bren Ten owner with more than one magazine!
You just reminded me, I remember reading a Mas Ayoob article back in the late, late 80's about handgun stopping power, and he quipped that no one knows yet about the ten because the only people as yet killed by a 10mm were killed by Sonny Crockett...
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:05 AM
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Not being able to supply magazines is a sorry reason to stop the manufacture of an expensive gun. But I have been around a while and know how the best intentions can be stymied at every turn. Does anybody make GOOD mags that will fit the Bren Ten now??
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:39 AM
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It was my favorite show at the time. The stories were good for the first few seasons. Always cool guns. It was clear in the script that the cars and other items were seized property from drug dealers.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:14 AM
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Those the that criticize Vice are usually know the least about the shows plot. The detectives depicted are not "regular detectives" they are members of OCB the organized crime bureau, that focussed on drug lords, large scale drug traffickers, black market arms dealers, violent pimps, and high end prostitution.
The Ferrari, Scarab and the Italian Clothes worn by Crockett were confiscated from criminals by the Department in day to day police operations. These props were used to fit into the criminal surroundings of the upscale Miami population.

http://miamivice.wikia.com/wiki/Organized_Crime_Bureau

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Old 06-22-2015, 10:08 AM
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I remember a rumor that Sonny ejected a magazine while shooting from cover behind some bushes in the green-belt between the lanes of some road in Miami. Some Bren owner went to the spot and found that magazine. Again, only rumor.

I remember gathering in a friend's room in the barracks at Travis AFB every week to watch the show. Even though there were several of us there, and all of us were gun owners and hobbyists, none of us ever remarked about the gun or the caliber- I suppose we might have had Sonny discussed them. We enjoyed the show merely because it was different and the shooting scenes were more 'realistic'* than anything else on TV. In season 1, second episode I think, they actually used a real competition shooter for one scene. He did a fast draw from concealment that left us speechless. I bought the series recently because I wanted to replay that scene. But like I said, none of us cared at all which gun Sonny carried or in which caliber- it meant absolutely nothing to us. I've never had the desire to own a Bren, and if one fell into my lap I'd immediately sell it off.

*By realistic I mean that the gun handling usually demonstrated proper form unlike other shows. I remember watching some cop show where the hero stood up and fired his snubby from the open top of a convertible, and hit the perp with one shot. He wasn't aiming either, he was 'throwing' the bullets with the gun. Sheesh. At least on MV most of the actors were holding their guns properly, although Sonny used a thumbs-tucked-under grip that was popular at the time.

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Old 06-22-2015, 12:09 PM
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In season 1, second episode I think, they actually used a real competition shooter for one scene. He did a fast draw from concealment that left us speechless.

You're right, his name is Jim Zubiena, and he's a top shooter, world class. He wrote in to former gunwriter Dean Speir's website about that scene, here's the link:

http://www.thegunzone.com/software/zubiena2.html

Here's a quick video showing that scene, about 50 seconds in, they superimpose a PACT Timer on him for that scene.

All that to say....he's good!

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Old 06-22-2015, 12:31 PM
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I never cared for Miami Vice, not that was alive when it was on. But I'll be honest, when I read Farrari I was expecting a Series 70 Government Model in 9mm Under a red Aloha shirt lol.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:58 PM
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Great article about the Bren Ten! At the very least it fathered the 10mm, even the FBI watered down version that S&W shortened and brought out as the .40 S&W.
I knew Col. Cooper, and yes he had an attitude, as do most Marines. He and I talked mostly about sports cars,(he preferred the Porsche) and flying.
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:29 PM
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Beetledude: You failed to mention the Aranow Cigarette boats!
But as far as the clothing goes, we called them " ice cream suits", they were cool, and those pastel colors...oh, baby...
I was working south Florida and the Bahamas for part of that Miami Vice era, and we used to get a kick out of trying to get in the background of a scene. One day an assistant director buttonholed me and my partner to step out of a nightclub ahead of Tubbs, because we were ALREADY DRESSED FOR THE PART!
I gotta go look for the DVD (and something to play it on )

(As an aside to all that, it was then I met and began a lasting friendship with Edward James Olmos, who is actually a very cool guy.)
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:37 PM
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Good write up, AWESOME H/D photos...thanks for bringing back fond memories of bad hair and good music.
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Old 06-22-2015, 01:58 PM
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Re: Cooper attitude. I used to shoot with an old veteran that used to share correspondence with Mr. Cooper, a John Pepper of pepper popper fame, old John had an old grizzeled vet attitude too, that only softened a little, after he figured that you knew what that hell you were doing.
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Old 06-22-2015, 02:46 PM
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Smile The 10mm and the Bren

I got involved in competitive shooting after the D&D fiasco. One of the Bren 10 by-products was the Colt Delta Elite. People who bought a DE and tried it with Norma ammo often reacted the way early 44 magnum shooters did, i.e. they sold the gun and remaining ammo. That's how I got mine and boy was it a handful! The combination of the Colt DE and Norma ammo made the 10mm cartridge acceptable to only a few hardy souls.

I had my Colt DE completely customized with a Clark full-ramp barrel, Bomar rear sight, beavertail grip safety, etc. Lastly, I handloaded my own 10mm ammo to make major power factor without beating me up. I shot that gun in several Single Stack Classics until they limited major PF to 8 rounds. The gun now rests in my safe and gets shot rarely.
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Old 06-22-2015, 04:19 PM
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For those who want a Bren 10, the EAA Witness in the steel frame version is a reasonable facsimilie - It's available in 10mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, and .38 Super. And calibers can be interchanged on the same frame. But it's fairly heavy. I've had one for about 9 years (.45 ACP and .38 Super), and it's one of my favorites.

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/wi...eel-full-size/

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Old 06-22-2015, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
the Italian Clothes worn by Crockett were confiscated from criminals by the Department in day to day police operations.
Just what everyone wants, to ware the same pants some pimp was waring two days ago. I hope they had a huge dry cleaning fund

Used/dirty clothing or not Miami Vice was cutting edge for it's time, and I usually enjoyed it.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:28 AM
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Going along with what dwalt said, the American Rifleman this month has a 10mm story and a picture of the Tanfoglio. This pistol looks somewhat like the Bren 10.
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Old 06-23-2015, 09:37 AM
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Interesting, informative article. Thanks.

"Miami Vice" was a really dumb show in my opinion, but I admit to having watched it. If only so I could ask, "How does a vice cop who isn't on the take live on a sailboat and drive a Ferrari, much less pack a Bren Ten?" This was never answered to my satisfaction.
That was his cover, he was always undercover. The expensive cars and boats were confiscated.

I started watching the old episodes ondemand. Jimmy Smits was in the pilot as Crockets partner. Then almost every episode has a no name actor who later became a household name. Seeing Ed Oneil (Al Bundy), and Michael Chickless as young actors was pretty cool.

Miami vice had a huge impact on the eighties. I don't think they were a product of the times, I think they made the eighties. The show had a huge impact on fashion, and music. A song from an unknown artist would be featured on an episode, andthe artist was an overnight sensation.

To me the biggest icon, is not the Bren Ten, cool as it is. To me the star of the show is the Galco, shoulder holster.

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Old 06-23-2015, 01:50 PM
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Very nice post, thank you for sharing.

I like Miami Vice and if you are on facebook you can connect with Michael Talbott (Stan Switek). He's very active, answers almost all the questions and shares cool stories and pictures
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Old 06-23-2015, 03:38 PM
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...As an adolescent teen I focused on other parts of the show...
I was a thirty-seven year old adult, and all I did was focus on the "other" parts of the show.
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Old 06-23-2015, 06:01 PM
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Default Jeff Cooper

Mr. Cooper favored big, wide bullets. I think this is what drew him into the Bren-Ten fiasco which, I think was out of character for him. I wonder what might have been if the gun followed more conventional lines and the magazine issue had not developed.

We must also remember that the FBI adopted the 10mm for a time. This usually draws the attention of all the other law enforcement agencies. Yet, a full power 10mm was a short range deer load but simply too powerful for law enforcement. So, they loaded it "lite" But, why buy a half gallon of milk in one-gallon containers? The 40 S&W put the 10 mm to bed as far as law enforcement is concerned.
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Old 06-23-2015, 06:08 PM
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I have fond memories of Jeff Cooper...............and Miami Vice.....
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:22 PM
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THE 1980s:
TV Cops with fancy cars, clothes, and weapons.
My children inquired why Dad carried a plain jane weapon, drove a plain vehicle, and wore Sears/Wards/Goodwill clothes ?
My Answer: The Cops on TV budgets their salary better than Dad.
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Interesting, informative article. Thanks.

"Miami Vice" was a really dumb show in my opinion, but I admit to having watched it. If only so I could ask, "How does a vice cop who isn't on the take live on a sailboat and drive a Ferrari, much less pack a Bren Ten?" This was never answered to my satisfaction.
Sonny got his Ferrari the same way I got my 1965 Olds 98 - forfeiture.
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Old 06-26-2015, 08:36 PM
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Very nice post. I too was a child of the 80's. I remember the ads in Shooting Times for the boxed Bren Ten before Miami Vice aired. I wanted one then, wanted one more when the show came out, wanted one all through the 90's when I couldn't afford one, wanted one when the Perigrine was rumored, stood in line at Bass Pro for the Vltor when that was rumored and still to this day hope to find and afford one that I can shoot.... There is just something special about a Bren.. no it might not be practical, might not even be useable but Gosh Darn it is one hell of a sexy beast of a pistol..
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:06 AM
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I met Col. Cooper once. Decided right then, I would NOT make that mistake again. We'll leave it at that.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:35 AM
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Mr. Cooper favored big, wide bullets. I think this is what drew him into the Bren-Ten fiasco which, I think was out of character for him. I wonder what might have been if the gun followed more conventional lines and the magazine issue had not developed.

We must also remember that the FBI adopted the 10mm for a time. This usually draws the attention of all the other law enforcement agencies. Yet, a full power 10mm was a short range deer load but simply too powerful for law enforcement. So, they loaded it "lite" But, why buy a half gallon of milk in one-gallon containers? The 40 S&W put the 10 mm to bed as far as law enforcement is concerned.

The .357 magnum was the preferred caliber of law enforcement and self-defense for decades. The 10mm was designed to give similar ballistics in a semi-auto and overlaps the .357 magnum ballistics. Yet the internet deems it too powerful for law enforcement or self defense. Maybe because too many modern shooters can't qualify with full power rounds and political correctness requires lower and lower powered guns and ammo.
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Old 06-30-2015, 12:21 PM
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@ LimaCharlie

I tend to agree on some points, differ on others.

Yes, LEO agencies have surrendered to PC silliness and don't teach gunfighting anymore, nor true pistolcraft. They teach to the test of 'qualification' so smaller, non-traditional police types (women and emo millennial males that grew up on Xbox, not on the gun range) can more easily pass. Sad. Generations of police handled the big S&W m28's just fine, but today they're seen as 'too cumbersome, heavy, have too little capacity and can't be fire accurately."

Horse apples. 19 year olds flew B-17's over Germany and bombed them into the stone age. Good instruction combined with willing students can overcome most obstacles.

As far as the 10mm goes, at the .357 Mag's most powerful levels, it does outpace the 10mm, and can outlast it, too. I don't think many autopistols could stand up to a 10mm loaded to the same levels as a topped out .357 Mag.

Having said that, I believe that properly loaded (which for me means a 135 to 155 gr HP bullet running around 1450-1550 fps) in 10mm seems to be pretty much the 'street equal' of the legendary 125 gr .357 Mag semi-jacketed lead hollow point.

For auto pistols, the 10mm may be the best it gets, although one pays a price in recoil and blast. The .357 Sig may be only about 85% of that performance, but it is more manageable and has more street history now than any 10mm.

The .40 was a solution in search of a problem. The best 9mm's of that time (the forty's intro) were near equal to the then-new .40 (the 115 gr +p or +p+ nines were awesome, just ask the Illinois State Police), were just as if not easier to shoot and had more capacity. The .40 really only served to emasculate the 10mm, nothing much else. Well, except for it's real, true success, which was one of marketing. That was brilliant, because it did sell.

In a perfect world where police administrators didn't fret over budgets, their bosses didn't worry over EEO dictates to 'diversify' the force, vendors didn't succeed at pushing "more more more!" with hi-cap polymers that really may not be necessary and "what works" is what actually got issued, I think there'd be a heck of a lot of 10mm's issued around the country and we'd have a much better real world database to look at in terms of street success.

But if a nightmare super-predator from the depths of ghetto Hades was coming at me with a tire iron, I certainly would wish I had a .357 Mag, properly loaded 10mm or at least a .357 Sig. An FBI "approved" 147 gr 9mm?

No. Freaking. Way.
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Old 06-30-2015, 05:42 PM
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I carry a 5" 1911 in either .45 ACP or 10mm about 95% of the time. My remote rural carry gun is the Glock G20 SF. I usually carry the Winchester Silvertip 175 grain in the Colt Delta Elite or Kimber Stainless Target II. I usually carry the Buffalo Bore or Underwood 180 grain in the Glock. I have some of the Underwood 155 grain XTP on order to try in the Glock.

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Old 06-30-2015, 06:28 PM
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Very good information on the Bren 10 and thanks for posting.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:02 PM
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Great article and photos. The only minor little issue I would point out is that Cooper was not a partner in the Bren Ten venture or the Dornaus and Dixon company in any legal sense of the word. Cooper had no ownership in the company, no rights to royalties or any other such connection. The only thing he did was promote the idea of the CZ75 being upsized for the 10mm.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:04 PM
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I love a good Bren Ten thread.

I still have a 1983 model NIB. I always thought they were one of the coolest looking pistols around...













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Old 06-30-2015, 08:12 PM
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@bc1023
Simply beautiful!
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:48 PM
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Great article, thanks for posting it. God, I miss the '80's.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:54 PM
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White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s White linen pants, a ferrari, and the gun superstar of the 80s  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 362
Likes: 200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calmex View Post
God, I miss the '80's.
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