OK, I watch too much news and most of it is not good! I've been a wheel gun guy forever with the exception of my old 1911. I'm beginning to feel out classed and way under gunned. So I'm starting to look at something that will shoot more than 6xs. I'm thinking about an AK-47 type rifle with an underfolder stock. But I have never shot one, so I need schooling on the best type/brand. This will be for defending home and country. What are my options? Who makes the best most reliable gun.

Saiga is well thought of sir.
Not too much money and they run like a clock.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I have had several, Egyptian, Bulgarian, Chinese, all were good with the exception of rifles imported into the United States as stripped receivers, then have cheaply made trigger parts installed here in the U.S.

I had to have quality trigger parts installed in my Egyptian AK when the trigger failed in a dramatic fashion, the trigger pivot pin backed out and allowed all the trigger parts to come loose inside the rifle, leaving it locked up with a round chambered.

So, if I were to buy one today, I'd get one that was imported with all stock trigger parts, such as a Chinese Norinco. The Norinco underfolder is nice, though not currently imported, you would have to find a used one.

I agree with the above. To be sure of getting a good AK you would
want to find an early import and they aren't cheap for obvious reasons.
The AR 15 is extremely popular today and prices are very reasonable
right now. Buy any brand with a good reputation and quality is pretty
well assured. Part of their popularity is no doubt due to the lack of
competition from quality imports but reliability seems to be excellent.
Plenty of ammo and quality mags and accessories are available.

I've owned a Bulgy, a Yugo and a Saiga I converted to AK form. Fun bullet hoses for cheap. Problem is they're not cheap anymore nor is the 7.62x39 ammo. The military surplus is long gone. For the same money as a good AK you can get a good AR now. Parts and accessories for AR's is plentiful (yes, AK's too) and 5.56 ammo is priced at 7.62x39 levels.
For me personally I much prefer the AR and just wanted to bring it up before your sold on AK's.

Century Arms offers an American made AK underfolder, as well as other variations. They seem to be generally well reviewed. The underfolder is the AK-63D. I am considering one myself. There might be some long term advantage to an American rifle with US made magazines...

I have a Yugo and I like the gun. It is fun to shoot but not made for all day range sessions. There are ways to make it better like a butt stock pad and a cheek weld piece that slides onto the stock but for all day shooting a traditional stock is the way to go.

The other thing is that Yugos do not have a chrome lined barrel.

If I were getting a AK47 for defense I would look at an Arsenal Side Folder. It will be a high quality build with a side folder which is much better for actual shooting. It is pricey but it is an excellent weapon.

Arsenal SLR107FR-31 762x39 Side Folding Rifle

Bullpup designs are being carried by security forces everywhere. Something like the 5.56 Tavor carries even smaller than than a folded stock AR, yet can still be shouldered without unfolding anything. There is also a 9mm kit for it. I've handled it and it feels good. Well balanced and fast pointing. Another option to chew on.

BTW... Our local Academy Sports has a Tavor, and its priced well.

I own several ak's and they are very reliable and fun to shoot.I do not remember any malfunction with them.I cannot say the same about my ar15s.I would stay away from American made ak's they do not have a good reputation.I like my underfolder but you can not get a cheek weld.So it takes a little getting used to.

Did someone mention AK?











If you have never shot an underfolder do so before buying. They look cool but shooting them is a love it or hate it thing. Personally I don't like it. The but portion of the stock doesn't fit into my shoulder well and I can either have it on one side of the metal oval or the other but not flat against my shoulder. The stock itself is thin metal. It's plenty thick for reliability use but once it's in your cheek you're going to feel the recoil in your cheek bone. Also there is no side rail because it gets in the way of the folder.

The best of both worlds would be a side folding polymer stock.

They don't all interchange but they all function the same. Like anything else, if built right they will function properly.

Problems with the Egyptian MADI was that 1) Egypt never really built top notch rifles 2) many that were sold were actually MISR90. Which was basically Chinese and Egyptian parts that Century force fit together to make one rifle. Those were problematic.
You don't need to find an early import. Arsenal still imports from Bulgaria, Century imports from Romania, Vepr from Russia.

There is really too much to list as far as what's good and bad. Most current "made in the US" rifles use cast trunions from Korea. Quality???? IO has had their share of cracked trunions from unknown (to us) suppliers. Very few US made barrels are worth the price. One guy on another forum just shot out his barrel after a little over 6k rounds.

The Yugo under-folder is very good. I have one. It's hard to beat. If I was in the market for a good under-folder, that's what I'd buy. They cost around $600.00.

Here's a photo of a Yugo:

ak002-1.jpg Photo by aristotle133 | Photobucket

Here's some more info:
Yugo M70AB2 AK Style Semi Auto Rifle, 7.62x39, with Underfolder Stock, Grenade Sight.






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I have had good luck with my Romanian underfolder as far as function and reliability go. I am pleased with the construction as well. As for anything less than a full stock, heed the advice already stated above. They are not fun 'range guns' without a full stock, but certainly serve well for other purposes. As with most other things, define for yourself what your use and needs will be and buy accordingly. The best one I ever had was a Russian milled receiver that I picked up, and actually used, in SEA. Sadly it is long gone. It is on my growing list of things that I should never have sold.

My-Ohh-My Arik, looks like your ready for the black helicopters.

You seem to be getting plenty of good advice on AKs from folks who know way more than me on that subject. My choice for a auto loader rifle is the Mini-14. Anyway, I don't understand why you feel outgunned or in adequate with a collection of wheel guns and a 1911. If you need more firepower for self defense, I'd recommend a high capacity auto pistol like the S&W M&P 9 or .40. My carry gun is usually a .38 or .44 five shooter.

The Russian Izmash Saiga in 223 / 308win would be my choice. The 223 / 308 rounds in the Saiga are more accurate over the 7.62x39 Russian. Anything norinco manufacturers is ok too. Norinco 1911, AK's and M14's. If you want a semi auto in 7.62x39 the sks is tops.

I still prefer the 100 year old Swedish 6.5mm mauser for there long distance accuracy. One shot one death.

All handguns are outgunned by semi-auto rifles, simply a matter of ease of use and being able to hit what you are aiming at.7.62 X 39 vs 9mm, 30 rds vs 15. A good functioning AK/AR both would work. If you want tula ammo price is about the same. Options for both are available. AR's are at the lowest price in recent memory, while good AK's are at their peak ( short of panic mode). Many underfolders are uncomfortable to shoot, side folding stock AR/AK's seem to be more comfortable. Tula ammo with " bi-metal" bullets will eat your barrel. There is a post of someone who did the testing with "bi-metal" bullets in AR's somewhere in the forum. If you truly want to be prepared go to a Hydra from MGI. You can change barrels, mags, mag wells, and go from 22 lr to 458 socom, with a 16" barrel it fits in a thick briefcase. See if any friends have something you can try before you buy. I have various AK/AR, prefer romanians/ DPMS, but the options are endless. I would do it now( soon) before the election cycle hits full steam. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

I am not knocking AK's, if that is what you want. But I recommend getting a good quality AR15. Right now, prices on AR's are about as low as they are likely to ever be. There are many good models out there, but right now I would recommend getting a Colt 6920 M4 carbine. They are readily available on-line for under $800.00 lately. I have seen them as low as $750.00. True mil-spec quality, with great re-sale value, if that is of any importance to you.

I completely agree with the above. Having at one time or the other owned most of the pre ban and post ban AK's except for the pre ban Valmet 62 none of them were accurate enough for me and except for 1 Arsenal all are gone replaced by Ar 15's.

I agree. The big downside to an AK is that they aren't that accurate. If you want good accuracy, get an AR15 (a Colt or a BCM, and don't use ****** Russian ammo in it, either. Also, you must keep an AR15 clean, unlike an AK, which seems to like dirt and grime ).


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Agree with the previous posters! Ten years ago, when a decent AR was $700 and AKs were $250 (and the ammo was half the price or less) it was a good way to go. Heck SKSes were $100 or less. Hard to beat.

There are some features of the AK platform that can be taken advantage of. I'm currently building an AK pistol (Zastava PAP M92) with a folding SIG brace. 7.62x39 doesn't lose as much pop as a 5.56x45 out of the shorter barrel and of course the AK doesn't need a buffer tube which makes the folding part possible. A compact (albeit heavy) package with a lot of firepower that someone with a CPL in my state can carry loaded in their car. An aftermarket trigger and grip plus a 2 point sling and it'll be done.

If you're into full sized rifles I'd look into the Veprs in .308 or 7.62x54R.

I'm not sure where everyone is getting these accurate problems. It's not a sniper rifle and wasn't ment to be one. They have great accuracy on man size targets at 400 - 500 yards....center mass. Their accuracy is no different than that of a FAL or a G3.

If one wants to bench it and shoot little sniper like groups then it's the wrong rifle for that. Anyone who thinks it's not accurate I dare to stand 400 yards away. Problem is most people use the cheapest ammo possible and sight them in wrong

Here are some BCM middies:

AR-15, M16 16" Mid Length Upper Group

You can use almost any good lower with the middie. I have a S&W lower on my BCM middie.



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I'll try to find some more pics

Here is 80 yards with LAPUA ammo benched


200 yards standing rapid fire. Red dot

Duuh, what exactly are ya tryin' to say, Arik? Are you sayin' dat I spent $1,300 on a BCM AR15 fer nuthin'? Iff'n dats what yer sayin........anyone wanna buy a BCM middie?

But seriously, your point is noted, to a point, at least.




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Lol no. I just didn't feel like editing my previous post. BCM makes great rifles. It's just that while both are rifles and both shoot a center fire rifle bullet, the way they are used are slightly different and how they are sighted in is different as well.

People bash AKs accuracy all the time but the criteria they are using to do that is not what the AK was built for. It was not built to shoot sub MOA groups. It was made to reliably hit man sized targets at bad breath range to 400 yards.

Most people cannot out shoot their rifles. Most people cannot shoot their rifles to the potential unless they are strapped into a bench with the wind just right on a sunny day etc... but they still want a rifle that is going to shoot sub MOA.

Personally I love the AK platform for what it is and don't ask or expect it to do something it is not.

I would chose an AR over an AK for your intended purposes, but I am of the perspective a rifle has fairly limited practical applications in civilian self-defense roles such as when you have a lengthy lead time and/or have taken a fixed position such as in a safe room or similar scenarios. 5.56/.223 makes more sense than 7.62 x 62 for a home defense carbine or "urban rifle" irregardless of which platform is chosen. I think first getting a high capacity semi-automatic pistol for home and carry would probably be more useful than a rifle for the scenarios that would be most probable.

And keep in mind that active shooter cases and terrorist attacks although high profile media stories, are extremely rare here. The scenarios civilians are most likely to encounter(armed robberies, physical assaults, muggings, car-jackings, rape attempts, home burglaries) can all generally be resolved effectively with what you already have. As a civilian, it is not your job/responsibility to proactively respond, engage and pursue like the Military/Police.

I asked Massad Ayoob his opinion on AK's. Here's his response...

"Generally clunky, mediocre accuracy, ****** ergonomics. The best AK I've seen is the American version by Arsenal, Inc. (don't have the address handy, but Google should, I think they're in Vegas.) Their .223 version is particularly sweet. However, prices are comparable to low end ARs like the DPMS Sportical, which is a much better rifle, or the Ruger Mini-14 , ditto."

And here's a quote from Clint Smith from the 2008 issue of American Handgunners Personal Defense magazine.....

"There is somewhat of a myth promoted that an AR or AK rifle is mandatory for personal defense. For the cops and military, in the infantry-like environments in which they function, I think a rifle is helpful. For civilians, the need for a combat rifle could be a reality, but I often think it is simply a well-developed sense of something else. The public-some of them-sort of wants to play army or cop if they can and buying the gear helps make the dream come true."

Before the AR and AK guys start throwing rocks at each other let me propose something else for the OP. Quick handling, light, accurate home defense/shtf rifle? Lever action! I bought a Marlin in 44 mag and love it. I wouldn't hesitate to grab it for any "social situation" and would only fall short up against a AR/AK, and at that point I'm calling the Marines!

I own a Polish AK and a Chinese SKS and I'll tell you what makes them special, the 7.62X39 round they shoot. not a pipsqueak with near 30-30 numbers and the recoil is almost addictive.


Old school AK.

Attached Images

ak with muzzle nut.jpg (77.8 KB, 24 views)

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

He's definitely not the person to ask. It's like asking a Glock guy what he thinks of SAA. First Arsenal imports. They don't make American AKs. Their import Bulgarian AKs. Made by Arsenal Bulgaria. They did do some Russian Saigas as well. Prices are double what a DPMS is but at the time he said it they may have been similar. The quality is leaps and bounds better. In the AR world DPMS isn't considered a good rifle, at least not by those who do any kind of serious shooting. Arsenal rifles are top notch when it comes to their metal and build. 223 AK tend to be the red headed step child. They are export only and no military uses them although a few have toyed with the idea, usually special forces types. Polish Archer is the only 556 military AK that I can think of. One can argue GALIL as well but it's no longer made in any mass quantity and it's kinda an copy of a Fin Valmet which is based on an AK. The galil is used to some degree by Estonian troops (go figure). Anyway ...... Arsenal is anything but cheap or low end. Ayoob may know guns in general but he has no experience with AKs

Btw Fins still use their AKs as front line rifles

Accuracy @ 250 yards

https://youtu.be/-alBbL_gg6s

I previously posted recommending a Colt AR15, but if you are set on an AK, I noticed you mentioned an under folder. I strongly recommend you get a fixed stock, or quality side folding stock instead. The combloc under folder is very uncomfortable for shooting. It's only virtue is compactness when folded IMHO. And I have owned and shot a couple of the under folders, the fixed stock AK's were much better.

Another " OLD SCHOOL" AK.. Chinese Pre Ban Norinco

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Here's my pick of all the AKs, the original pre ban Poly Tech Legend.
I'm lucky that I bought it new back before the ban when they were
priced at about 50% more than the stamped Chinese AKs because
there's no way I would pay what they sell for these days. If I didn't
have an AK or AR and wanted one today I would just buy a quality
AR like the Colt. Easier and cheaper than trying to buy a good AK
and the AR is more user friendly. I have a few of each.

Attached Images

020.jpg (104.4 KB, 15 views)

SKS prices are low right now. If money is an issue, swap out a few parts and you have a reliable rifle with a 20 or 30rd mag in 7.62x39mm for half to a third the price of an AK or AR.

Steel cased 7.62x39mm is cheaper than brass cased .223, about the same as steel cased .223, but not every AR will like steel cased ammo whereas every Commie gun seems to do fine on it.

You could also buy an M1A, give it a girl's name, and sleep with it. There are many like it but that one is yours...

Someone say old school?



Norinco Mak 90 circa sometime in the "80's".

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Isaiah 41:10

Looks more Romanian than Chinese

I have both AR and AK and if I need to use either of these for its intended purpose I'll take the AK every time. It's very simple, very reliable, very durable and very low maintenance, and the 7.62x39 is the ideal cartridge. The 1mm stamped receiver will serve you just fine, just like it serves the Russian military. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a de-milled kit gun built on a No Dak Spud receiver and even better if built on a kit with an original barrel before the ATF decided that original barrels can no longer be included with de-milled kits. If you need optics, replace the gas tube with an Ultimak gas tube/rail, install an Aimpoint Micro and you will have the best fighting utensil fit for any occasion.

why the duct tape?

Not accurate ak/akm saiga??

My Russian Izmash Saiga Sporter in 308win. with 16" barrel using south African surplus 308 ball ammo at 100yds no scope will shoot constantly 1 1/2" groups. I read on the Saiga site with better new ammo 1" MOA is possible. Lube your Ak with moly it's a totally different gun. Put some on the trigger sear. It's been noted the scoped Saiga 308/16" is hitting gongs at 500+yards.
I haven't tried my 223/16" and 308/22" Saiga yet. Both are scoped with BDC bullet drop compisation we dope the scope to the range finder. Somewhere the 308/16" accuracy will drop off and the 308/22" will pick up where the 16" barrel falls off.

The Russians @ Izmash designed the Saiga to be more accurate than its Ak variants. They admitted the USA calibers of 223/308 to be more accurate than the Russian calibers. They think it's the design of our brass case.

Like I said if you want the best rifle in 7.62x39 the sks is it.

The accuracy difference in the 7.62x39 rifles is due to the difference in bore diameters and ammo diameter. The bores can run from .308" to .311" the ammo runs from 308" to .3115". You need to Mic your bore and bullets.
You need to roll your own for accuracy.

The yugo sks has the largest bore. Avg .311"

The early us made 7.62x39 ammo was .308"

It's not the gun that's inaccurate the ammo diameter is too small.

Here's my favorite AK:
It an AMD65 I had built as an SBR so it's registered. A very important point is WHO built a particular rifle from the parts kit as there are big difference in quality!
Jim

Buy a few Saigas, get a grip with a Tapco G2 trigger on each, and you are set. Or, buy a couple of Veprs. Tapco makes nice side folders, too. Both Russian manufacturers have great rifles. Golden Tiger and a Saiga will shoot with the best AKM-47s in 7.62x39. The earlier Romanian rifles are amazingly accurate, too. Never had a Chinese.


Tapco side folder on a Saiga 12.



Saiga in .308, stock; my walking in the woods gun.

In my opinion the best AK-47's are pre-ban Eastern European and Chinese (Norinco) made in the arsenals/factories that make or made the military versions. My personal favorites for the best made stamped receiver AK-47's are from China (Norinco) because the receivers are 1.5 mm versus 1.0 mm. They are a bit heavier but feel much more robust. There's a long running debate whether the heavier receiver offers any real or practical durability advantage. The problem is these pre-ban guns are getting harder to find and more expensive. A post-ban MAK-90 is made with the same receiver and barrel. SC_Mike shows a post-ban MAK-90 converted* to look pre-ban. Another durability and quality debate is regarding a milled versus stamped receiver and to my knowledge it's never been settled. You'll pay more for a milled receiver gun and likely not get any advantages over a quality stamped receiver.

One member pointed out to be leery of AK-47's built from parts kits on U.S. receivers and I would echo that warning. Be very leery. Do your homework if you go this route.

A no-brainer, if you don't want to search for a pre-ban AK-47 would be to order from Arsenal out of Las Vegas. They make a quality AK-47, essentially a Bulgarian (i.e. Eastern European) gun, and offers a significant number of variations. They can be easily ordered to your local FFL through Davidson's or other suppliers.

Saiga's and Veprs are supposedly good firearms and having examined a number of them I would guess they are but they are not exactly a AK-47 built exactly like most other AK-47's so some parts may not be interchangeable. If you go this route do your homework.

*If you do a conversion from a post-ban to look like a pre-ban be sure to do your homework.

Since nobody has shown an AK-47 oddball here is my Norinco 86S. It is extremely compact at about 26" total length:

[IMG][/IMG]

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Scoundrel & Ne'er-Do-Well

Why it holds the front sight on of course!

Naaa was coyote hunting from a blind and wrapped it with camo tape.

Arik its Norinco, stamped on the receiver and slightly bubba'd up front sight.

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Isaiah 41:10

Those Norincos are rare.

Vepr is an AK it's just made by a different company, Molot. Everything They Make for the Military Is RPK so with their civilian versions that's essentially what you're getting....an RPK. Heavier and bulged receiver with a thicker barrel and adjustable rear sights.

Izhmash, the makers of Saiga, make military AKM and AK74.

I still say the Saiga sporter w/16" barrel in 223 and in 308win. Leave them original lube them with moly. These have the chrome lined chambers and bores the Russians are famous for. The Saiga is a brand new Russian Izmash ak/akm

Century Arms makes a decent under-folder that retails for between $450 and $600, depending on who you buy it from. It is a great plinker and defense weapon, and could double as a hunting rifle for medium sized game. Of course with an under-folder you're not going to get that cheek weld that most people desire on a rifle. But it's compact and cool to look at. FYI, if you live in The People's Republik of Kalifornia, you have to install a device that prevents the stock from folding. However, this can be easily removed if you ever decide to leave the state.

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US Navy Vet, and NRA Life Member - America is still the greatest country in the history of the world!

Be careful with century rifles. Inspect it closely make sure it's a good fitted gun.

^
This

Dpapa has a good idea. Century makes a folder, AK63D (an AK-47 variant) with a milled receiver... but an unlined barrel. Blackheart International makes a stamped receiver, with an Amerian-made chrome-lined barrel... and I heard it was good.

I have an old, IMI Galil 5.56mm (AK-47 variant) that is NIB... and never been shot. It was give to me. Back then... I would not have bought it if I had a choice. Dam thang is heavy (nearly 9 pds)... but it does have a folding stock... and built-in bi-pod. Israelis liked it... cause the wood was cooler to the touch in the desert heat...