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12-10-2015, 10:56 AM
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What was Charles Askin's logic here
There's something I never understood about Charles Askins. He has references in his book of carrying and using Colt New Services in .44-40 and .45 Colt (Fitz Special here). But he really raved about the four ton 4" New Service in .38 Special, even using one in WW2 where he wrote excitingly about killing a couple Germans with it. Yet he talked with scorn about the 1917 .45 with half moon clips. But he loved the .45 auto.
Why did he dislike the 1917 in a caliber he liked with the faster loading half moon clips, but he liked the very heavy .38 so much? Hey, he's the expert and based it all on really experience shooting people, but I just found it confusing. All I can figure is, maybe he didn't like the actions on the war production era guns. Beats me.
EDIT: Uh oh. Is this the wrong category? Maybe this should be in "Other Brands".
Last edited by Wyatt Burp; 12-10-2015 at 11:04 AM.
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12-10-2015, 11:27 AM
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Did he dislike the 1917 or dislike the moon clips?
I'm not a fan of them.
When I used to have a Colt 1917, I reloaded 45AR.
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12-10-2015, 11:44 AM
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Probably liked the ability to load or eject one round at a time. What do you do when you fire one or two rounds in a moon clip or one round in a half moon clip and you want to reload? Throw away a good round or five? Take the time to remove one spent case from the clip and reload it and then put the whole thing back in the cylinder? I also preferred auto rim rounds to acp in a revolver.
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12-10-2015, 12:05 PM
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I have several revolvers in .45 acp, a 1917 S&W, 1917 Colt, 1937 S&W
and two 1955 S&Ws. I tried the traditional half moon clips and quickly
came to despise them. I now only use AR brass.
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12-10-2015, 12:05 PM
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No telling, Maybe someone will uncover some more of his writing someday. He was a strange man and it has been told more than once that in these days he would be in prison for life for some of his "killins".
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12-10-2015, 12:12 PM
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If I recall correctly from my reading, S&W somehow made him angry, and, in revenge, he trashed their wares.
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12-10-2015, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp
There's something I never understood about Charles Askins.
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Reading about Askins, I always had the feeling there were things he never even understood about himself.
There's a kind of lengthy article on him here that just briefly touches on his dislike for Smith & Wesson, although it does not give his reasons.
It's an interesting writeup, and it includes the following quote from Askins:
"As the Great Depression eased some-what, the Border Patrol at my insistence purchased new revolvers for the entire service. I had small love for the Smith & Wesson, a dislike which I share to this day, and so I elected the Colt New Service in .38 Spl. caliber. The revolver had a 4" barrel, fixed sight and a square butt."
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12-10-2015, 12:50 PM
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I've talked about this before, and a search will find it, I'm sure. I came away with a completely different view of Askins after reading his biography "Unrepentant Sinner". That dude was nuts.
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12-10-2015, 01:12 PM
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Askins, was a different sort to say the least. It's possible that someone at Smith and Wesson did not give him, what he thought, was the respect he deserved?
From the small amount of information I've been able to gather about Mr. Askins, he was not the type of person I'd want to know or have anything to with.
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12-10-2015, 01:24 PM
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He was a man of another time. Like much that is occurring today, I do not think it is right ,or for that matter fair ,to apply what is happening today with "yesterday". As Col. Cooper said, "the past is like another country, they did things differently there". I personally met Col. Askins on a couple of different occasions and found him to be very interesting and very much a gentleman on those times. All my best, Joe.
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12-10-2015, 01:26 PM
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I too formed the opinion that while 'some' of his writings were interesting, they were never objective. HIS opinion came thru and mattered more than anything else. He was very proud of the bad things he got away with and was a braggart about them. I would not liked to have known him or heaven forbid have to work with him or for him. ................
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12-10-2015, 01:28 PM
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I don't know about Charlie Askins...even though I met him. There were more than one scary dude that came back after the war. My father in law included. He once told me he didn't take prisoners except one time. His squad captured about 60 Germans. He got the Silver Star for that escapade. I think losing so many of his men changed him in some way. But he had fought with the Brit Commando groups and they didn't seem to take prisoners. My Uncle was in the South Pacific and he was also a bit scary. He captured a japanese sword and carried it as well as a Japanese ceremonial knife of some sort(Katana??) He said there was "quote" a bit of hand to hand fighting so I am sure he used 'em. He even scared me 25 yrs later after I spent time in SE Asia. War truly is Hell...more for some than others
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12-10-2015, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlrhiner
That dude was nuts.
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That term's a bit too broad, I think.
It's easy to look back on a man from a historical point of view when all we have of him are words on paper, photographs, and some reminisces from his cohorts who may still be living. And in today's world, Askins would probably not be allowed any role in law enforcement.
But like it or not, he was a man of his times. There wasn't a lot of tolerance around in the Great Depression and war years. If you were in a border state in the early to mid-thirties, a wrong look or wrong word could get you killed. Being the wrong color could get you killed. And in the wars, Americans killed people. It's what you do in a war, doesn't much matter how you do it at the time, that's what you're there for.
You hear a lot of wannabe macho guys on the Internet talking big through their keyboards about how they'd do so-and-so if such-and-such happened, or they're second-guessing actions taken by cops and military guys and how we ought to allow this-and-that.
Well, Charles Askins was more than just talk. He also backed up his talk with weapons a lot of folks consider outdated today. And if he was nuts (which I don't believe), he had a lot of company in the military and in the law enforcement communities of his day.
I figure Askins was one of those guys who spend most of their lives just looking for a fight. We all know folks like that.
I don't think Askins was nuts. I don't believe he feared death, plus I really think he was just naturally mean.
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12-10-2015, 01:40 PM
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There were atrocities committed on both side in the European theater but that's been mostly forgotten and forgiven by the remaining vets I've talked to.
However I have NEVER met a Vet who fought against the Japanese say they were forgiven for the atrocities they committed.
Additionally I remember reading somewhere that Bill Jordan had stated that when on duty and confronting a criminal they used to have a contest of sorts to see who could shoot him first. Just how well do you think this would fly in today's environment?
Last edited by italiansport; 12-10-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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12-10-2015, 01:47 PM
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Being I read most of the gun magazines since Guns & Ammo first came out way back when, many tails about and many stores from the Colonel himself. Like him or not he most certainly was a very interesting character, heck even Skeeter and Bill Jordan gave him a lot of print space!
An old epithet that would be appropriate on his tombstone would be
KILL THEM ALL LET GOD SORT THEM OUT
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Last edited by NYlakesider; 12-10-2015 at 01:49 PM.
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12-10-2015, 02:23 PM
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I'm firmly on the fence about Askins. I will not use modern points of view to judge his gunfights in the 20s and 30s. Yet he did seem to take particular glee reminiscing in his writing about how much fun it was shooting people. But whether he felt remorseful, indifferent, or thrilled about it, the guys he shot were criminals, Nazis, and one North Vietnamese, and were just as bad,and just as dead regardless how he felt about it afterwards.
And I never thought half moon clips might be the reason he didn't like the 1917. I have one, but I shoot it rarely so I never encountered the concerns mentioned above.
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12-10-2015, 02:41 PM
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Many years ago, someone told me, "Never ask a man how many people he's shot. Never ask a man if he's ever been intimate with a particular woman. And never, ever brag about doing either one."
I've always believed that was good advice. Perhaps the good colonel should have followed it.
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12-10-2015, 02:55 PM
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People always scratch their head at the New Service being chambered for 38 Special, but wouldn't you be able to shoot the 38/44 through it as well? If Colt advertised back in the thirties that it was safe to shoot the 38/44 through the Official Police then I can't help but assume that the same was true for the big old heavy New Service. So hotter loads would have been an option.
Also I've got back issues of Guns & Ammo, Guns and American Rifleman from the sixties and there are numerous article by Askins. He writes more than once that he believed the 38 Special was a good load and plenty for most police officers. Askins understood that the majority of cops weren't (and this is still true today) gun people and the 38 Special was about the max they could carry. Perhaps this was why he got New Service revolvers in 38 Special. Big strong holster revolver that could handle hot loads (and hard use such as it would have received on the border in the thirties), but for those officers shooting 38 Special loads it would have been like shooting a 22. Therefore better shot placement.
Well it's just speculation, but based on the articles I've read by him I think I might be close.
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Last edited by Checkman; 12-10-2015 at 02:57 PM.
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12-10-2015, 03:10 PM
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Checkman, you are 100% right, the Colt NS can easily handle the 38/44 heavy loads. Also, the 4 in. barreled New Services handle and balance very well{and this from a dedicated S&W guy}. In my small collection of New Services I have both a Border Patrol issue 38 as well as a San Antonio issue 38. Both have 4 in barrels and shoot both light and heavy loaded 38 's very well. I do have grip adaptors on both however. All the best, Joe
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12-10-2015, 03:11 PM
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I remember one tale about him. He was walking down a street and saw a man walking in an alley with a long gun. Without a word of warning he threw 2 bullets at the man. He missed both shots. Come to find out, it was a deputy sheriff he shot at. He said he just could not understand how he missed.
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12-10-2015, 03:29 PM
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It seems to me the good colonel just liked to rile readers for his own amusement. You could read different opinions about guns in different articles. After all, most of us with a lot of experience know that there's really not that much difference in quality guns, just personal things we like - and those can change. So if you're a writer and having to write your 500th article about the latest Gee-Whiz-Bang gun or cartridge, you should be entitled to have a little fun.
Personally, I enjoyed his writing.
Last edited by Bullet Bob; 12-10-2015 at 03:37 PM.
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12-10-2015, 03:57 PM
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I don't think that the word 'logic' should be used when discussing Charles Askins.
He had a lot of experiences and a lot of opinions.
That do make for interesting reading!
In one of his articles, he mentioned that he moved to Chama, NM and became a forest ranger after he resigned from the BP.
That was the first time I ever heard of Chama.
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12-10-2015, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
No telling, Maybe someone will uncover some more of his writing someday. He was a strange man and it has been told more than once that in these days he would be in prison for life for some of his "killins".
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The first chapter or two of "Unrepentant Sinner" convinced me that he was a sociopath.
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12-10-2015, 04:53 PM
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I remember reading many of Col. Askins' writings in several venues. I suspect that he was more interested in selling his column inches than anything else.
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12-10-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
The first chapter or two of "Unrepentant Sinner" convinced me that he was a sociopath.
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Another label. Nut. Murderer. Killer. And now sociopath. And so what if he was? Probably could say the same thing about George Patton or William Sherman, and most assuredly about George Custer and John Chivington.
It's so easy, isn't it, to put labels on people from the past when we put them under the magnifying glass of today's standards.
At least Askins fought for his country. He enforced its laws...undoubtedly breaking some of them in the process, but still, he was theoretically one of the good guys.
It's probably just as well Charles Askins has passed on, though. If he were alive today, there'd be people wanting to erase him from history and apologize for killing Việt Cộng or something.
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12-10-2015, 06:15 PM
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Can not imagine Chivington NOT being called a murderer.
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12-10-2015, 06:21 PM
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Watchdog, have you read "Unrepentant Sinner"?
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12-10-2015, 06:34 PM
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It was about at this point in the previous thread that I mailed my copy of "Unrepentant Sinner" to a fellow forum member so he could read it.
I promised myself I wasn't going to do this, but here I am anyway.
At no time in our history was it acceptable for a Lawman to hide in ambush and shoot down unarmed men. Please inform me how this is a an unfair judgement of Col. Askins? And labeling him is also unfair? He readily acknowledges that he knew what he was doing.
I'm not a child. I am opinionated. I also grew up reading his writings. I was appalled when I read his biography. As far as Askins being the "real deal", he was. In the same way Manson was.
And for those that think he may have "embellished" his stories, that makes him a liar.
I strongly urge anyone who hasn't read UNREPENTANT SINNER to obtain a copy and read it.
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12-10-2015, 06:41 PM
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Lots of sociopaths rise to the top of their field...Whatever that may be. Narcissists too.... Being a sociopath wouldn't necessarily be a BAD thing, in the 1930's border patrol, I would think.....
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12-10-2015, 06:59 PM
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Just because a person seems nice in person and is a generally pleasant fella does not let him off the hook for dastardly deeds. My barber used to cut Ted Bundy's hair as well. He could not say enough good things about the pleasant young man.
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12-10-2015, 07:43 PM
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In 1983 I was standing in line to check in to our hotel in Phoenix where we were attending the Annual NRA Convention. There was something wrong with one whole floor of the hotel's rooms and travelers were being turned away and sent to other hotels. A gentleman ahead of us became extremely angry when advised of the situation and in a loud and agitated voice exclaimed, "Do you know who I am? I'm Col. Charles Askins!" I had never cared much for the Colonel's writings and this just reaffirmed my opinion of the man. Skeeter Skeleton was always my guy, him and Jack O'Connor.
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12-10-2015, 07:59 PM
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1. IIRC Askins disliked the moon clips. Preferred single rounds.
2. The 38 New Service was his duty weapon in the Border Patrol so maybe he was just accustomed to it? He used many guns including the 1911 but seemed to favor large frame, big bore revolvers. He claimed to be the first one to shoot a man with a 44 Magnum in 1956.
3. He wrote of the rough times and places where he lived and worked. He said gunfights on the Tex/Mex border in the 1930s were nightly affairs and you shot men on sight because they would shoot you if they saw you first.
4. He was a stone cold killer. He was also a man of his era, not ours. He was wildly racist, much like my grandfather. No doubt he was opinionated and arrogant. But he could back it up. How many times was he the pistol champ? How many gunfights did he survive? How many trophies did he take around the world? I have heard he was gracious and friendly until you crossed him. Then he became your worst nightmare.
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12-10-2015, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbadge8091
. Skeeter Skeleton was always my guy, him and Jack O'Connor.
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Jack O'Connor was my hero...till I met him.
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12-10-2015, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSanch111
Probably liked the ability to load or eject one round at a time. What do you do when you fire one or two rounds in a moon clip or one round in a half moon clip and you want to reload? Throw away a good round or five? Take the time to remove one spent case from the clip and reload it and then put the whole thing back in the cylinder? I also preferred auto rim rounds to acp in a revolver.
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I think moon clips are fine.
The complaint that it is hard to replace one or two spent cartridges has also been made about semi-auto pistols. Admittedly, you don't have to worry about spent cases, but would you want to remove the mag and top it back up? While doing this, remember that your pistol has one in the chamber and the hammer is cocked. All this in a high stress environment.
If you remove the mag and replace it with a full one, that's equivalent to removing / replacing moon clips. And with the revolver there is much less chance of an AD.
For personal defense, unclipped cartridges in a revolver may be adequate, but getting the military or Law Enforcement to revert to that would be a very hard sell indeed.
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12-10-2015, 09:27 PM
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Different times called for different men.No way to compare his time and place with now.Still on a dark and dangerous night.Who would you rather have at your side Col Askins or one of the current breed of metrosexual's .
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12-10-2015, 09:37 PM
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Check out this Askins article from 1956. He says good pistol shooters shoot better when they're falling-down drunk. He got to a point where he could write anything and people would pay him. Maybe a little bit of rationalizing his own alcoholism....?
colonel charles askins on guns and booze
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12-10-2015, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WATCHDOG
Another label. Nut. Murderer. Killer. And now sociopath. And so what if he was? Probably could say the same thing about George Patton or William Sherman, and most assuredly about George Custer and John Chivington.
It's so easy, isn't it, to put labels on people from the past when we put them under the magnifying glass of today's standards.
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At what point in this country's history was armed robbery considered acceptable?
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12-10-2015, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shell627
Different times called for different men.No way to compare his time and place with now.Still on a dark and dangerous night.Who would you rather have at your side Col Askins or one of the current breed of metrosexual's .
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I'd rather have Alvin York or John Basilone.
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12-10-2015, 10:04 PM
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Askins should not be judged by the standards of our times. Unnnfortunately he did not fit the standards of his own times either. He was transfer twice because he embarassed even the 1930's Border Patrol with his exploits (the ones they knew about). ( His son was a CIA operations officer, and learned confirmed and unconfirmed, but persistent accounts of his Dad's additional adventures that were left out of Unrepentant Sinner .)
Askins performed amazing feats of arms while under fire. Notwithstanding his teenage stint as a corrupt "game warden" , he served his country and law & order. He probably would have been happiest ( and fit in best) starting his career as a teenage Ranger for the late Republic of Texas, and eventually lying about his age to be the oldest Rough Rider , and passing away in Cuba.
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12-10-2015, 10:23 PM
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I attended that NRA convention in 83 also.....I saw Mr. Askin's on the convention floor, having read his articles for years, I introduced myself, extended my hand and said "Mr. Askins, it is a pleasure to meet you". He looked at me as if I had two heads, wrinkled his nose as if detecting a bad odor and exclaimed "Son, I haven't been a "Mr." for some time, people address me as "colonel"....all the while I was standing there with my hand extended....he finally shook my hand, after another disparaging remark....I was less than impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbadge8091
In 1983 I was standing in line to check in to our hotel in Phoenix where we were attending the Annual NRA Convention. There was something wrong with one whole floor of the hotel's rooms and travelers were being turned away and sent to other hotels. A gentleman ahead of us became extremely angry when advised of the situation and in a loud and agitated voice exclaimed, "Do you know who I am? I'm Col. Charles Askins!" I had never cared much for the Colonel's writings and this just reaffirmed my opinion of the man. Skeeter Skeleton was always my guy, him and Jack O'Connor.
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12-10-2015, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSanch111
Check out this Askins article from 1956. He says good pistol shooters shoot better when they're falling-down drunk. He got to a point where he could write anything and people would pay him. Maybe a little bit of rationalizing his own alcoholism....?
colonel charles askins on guns and booze
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Wow! That is pretty remarkable.
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12-10-2015, 11:06 PM
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The get drunk to shoot comment reminds me of the old school non-PC joke-
'You drive, you are way too drunk to sing.'
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12-10-2015, 11:19 PM
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Random thoughts about Col. Charles Askins:
- He often wrote shocking articles just to stir up debate in the "gun press."
- I do not believe he embellished much of his own gun fighting experience.
- I met him only one time, and he was very old at that time. Even at that age, I am not sure a team of armed men could have successfully taken him.
- He had a stone cold glare that was frightening even when the conversation was pleasant and the meeting cordial.
- He was friends with Bill Jordan, and they had hunted together on many continents. If I have met a nicer man than Jordan, I am not sure I could name him. If Bill Jordan thought enough of Askins to be as close as they were, I am willing to give him the "benefit of the doubt."
- Askins exploits, while likely not exaggerated, are shocking by today's standards. Then again, today's standards (by that I mean "political correctness," the idea that winners ought to apologize to losers and that the US deserved 9/11 because of the "way we are") are not exactly the model that I prefer.
- Were Askins alive today, I suspect his writings on the modern topics of the day would really start a debate. And that is what he liked to do.
- A young editor wrote, at the time of Askins' death, I believe, that early in the young editor's career, he made some suggestions to Askins by sending back an article for a rewrite. The young editor described that he received the exact same article back with a note attached, in Askins' handwriting which read something to the effect of, "I don't change my work for you or any other [here insert three letters denoting a four word phrase describing a direct descendant of a female canine]." (I hope that does not offend forum regulations. If so, please edit further.)
My final thought on Askins is that "they broke the mold" when they made him, and that may be our loss in this modern "kinder, gentler" world in which we live.
Last edited by shawn mccarver; 12-10-2015 at 11:44 PM.
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12-10-2015, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp
There's something I never understood about Charles Askins. He has references in his book of carrying and using Colt New Services in .44-40 and .45 Colt (Fitz Special here). But he really raved about the four ton 4" New Service in .38 Special, even using one in WW2 where he wrote excitingly about killing a couple Germans with it.
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Two things-
If I recall correctly, the New Service he took to war was a tricked out gun with a cockeyed hammer and King Sights.
He could get 38 ammo through supply channels and/or trading.
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12-10-2015, 11:53 PM
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The above linked article contained a great deal of humor and sarcasm.
That said , the era under discussion was before the rise of Mad Mothers, and the resurgence of Neo-Prohibitionism. It is well know that in the era that among top level pistol shooters ( back then all pistol matches were Bullseye) it was not uncommon for them to have a taste of hooch to settle match nerves. A single shot is more intuitive, and more supported by contemorary accounts than the over the top humor of Askins.
I didn't say in earlier post, but as to the origonal question; Moon or Half moon clips are a matter of taste, Askins didn't like them.
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12-11-2015, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028
Jack O'Connor was my hero...till I met him.
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Seems a lot of "heros" meet that same fate.
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12-11-2015, 12:39 AM
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I recall him saying that one shot of whiskey would calm the nerves and improve shooting. Don't think he said falling down drunk.
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12-11-2015, 01:41 AM
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Back to the original question, Askins once wrote an article about the purchase and issuing of the New Service to the Border Patrol. He wrote that he would have ordered revolvers from H&R before he would have ordered Smith & Wessons. The tone was a grudge against the company itself rather than their products.
On arrival, Askins test fired and sighted in every one of the new Colts himself, often bending the front sight blades to obtain correct windage. I think there were about 400 of them.
Last edited by BUFF; 12-11-2015 at 01:47 AM.
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12-11-2015, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM
The get drunk to shoot comment reminds me of the old school non-PC joke-
'You drive, you are way too drunk to sing.'
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Never heard that one, but it's true!
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12-11-2015, 02:55 AM
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I seem to remember him saying something about being able to get 38 ammo in the war. Of course if he had a supply guy order some the supply clerk would never fail a 2nd time.
On his revolver cartridge choice in WW II, He was very familiar with the revolver and the cartridge.
If all policepersons shot as well as the Col a K22 would work. Problem is some do not have ice water in their veins.
I too think he liked to stir the pot. If the Army had used Colt in 38 he would have used something else, like a modified CF 22 in the rimfire class.
My perception was he offered challenge too some to prove and remind himself of his manhood. I'm sure some of the folks needed killin, many did their job but did not brag about it.
I read much of his work when young. I decided I probably wouldn't care to ride with him.
But his life was interesting, he had many hunts world wide and enjoyed life to the fullest from his perspective.
Oh, his comments on alcohol were at national matches and I believe it was the PD from LA, but not sure, that won team each year, his spies told him those fellows retired to their area and took one drink to calm their nerves. A practice he immediately embraced. Or was it all BS to justify him having alcohol in one hand and a Colt 38 in the other.
And like JL and a few others I did not realize how far removed he was from sanity. I bought the book, read it, was dismayed and gave it away.
Judge, jury and executioner. Remember him saying something to this effect? When I shake the skull I can hear the 45 slug rattle around.
His time on the planet was closer to the William Bonney era rather than civilization, manners and due process.
Right or wrong men like this held the line for the settlers and sod busters.
Last edited by model70hunter; 12-12-2015 at 01:41 AM.
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