I want a "modern sporting arm" but am confused by the many choices.

[CAJUNLAWYER]

For the past few days I've been torn about the S&W Sport II and the SKU# 811000 with te handle. From a bunch of you I had decided to go with the sport II. So looking on Cabella's site I come across a century arms CA39v2 that looks really sweet. Plus I found some place on the net that sells steel cased 7.62x39 for $259 per thousand. I figure that hey, the 7.62 is a bigger more powerful round, the ammo is cheaper (I am assuming that these things were made to run on steel cased ammo) and I already have a .223 (Ruger Mini 14). This gun looks to be very well made-milled receiver and all that rot-only thing missing is the cleaning rod and bayonet lug. SO what am I missing here? Or should I want for S&W to make their own AK47??

[tbgunner88]

Century Arms has a spotty history with their AKs, plus I'm pretty sure there is a law that says every American has to own at least one AR

[dmar]

Caj, you know the answer to your conundrum, get both! AKs are awesome guns, rugged, reliable, and great firepower with the 7.62 X 39 round. I've got an NPap (a Yugo) and it's a beast... I put a nice folding stock on it, and it's real handy. Don't know a lot about the Century Arms ones, but I've heard some folks don't care for the US made milled receivers and prefer the Eastern European and Russian stamped steel receivers. You'll probably get some better input from others in this.

That said, if you don't have an AR, you really need an AR. Lots you can do with them, very accurate, easy to put a scope, or (and) a red dot on it, etc. Since you're already into the .223 caliber, maybe this makes sense for you?

I just picked up a Sport II today, very nice rifle, and a good value, too.

Nice to have choices, but I'd try to nail down both...

[CATI1835]

I have two CIA AKs, both recent vintage. I have not had a single problem with either. Haven't cleaned my under-folder. Kinda curious how long it will run. I use steel case ammo in these exclusively.

[KLYDE]

Get the best of both worlds an AR chambered for the 7.62x39mm. Many companies making quality mags and the feeding problems of the past have been solved. 30 caliber round is legal for hunting. The lower is universal, so later on you could add a different upper for minimal cost.

If uncomfortable with an AR you can always get another Ruger. The Mini Thirty 7.62x39mm. Exact same platform as your Mini 14. Just have to buy some new mags.

I paid just over $700 with an LE discount but my LGS is selling new Windhams for $800 area. They are an excellent quality rifle.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...ack-rifle.html

Another thread when I put a Leupold on it.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...upold-vxr.html

[gregintenn]

I'm not a tactical guy by any stretch, but my family and myself have a lot of fun shooting both AKs and ARs. Ammo is cheap, they're easy to repair if something goes wrong, and something rarely ever goes wrong.

ARs seem to be easier to work on, and easier to fire more accurately. They are like legos for grown men. You can mix, match, and swap parts to your liking. There's no end to replacement parts and accessories for them.

AKs just seem to be built stronger and tougher. I can't imagine what you'd have to do to an AK for it to not operate properly. They also look cooler to me. They are designed to fire steel cased ammo.

$500-$600 should get you a serviceable rifle in either flavor.

As they are very different creatures, I'd go for both.

[NAM68]

Try looking at Classic Firearms.com poke around that site .

[Gpsman]

Get both.
The CA39V2 has excellent reports on its fit finish and performance.
A Mini 14 is nice, but you need an AR.
As has been stated, every American should have one.
Both are tons of fun to shoot.
It is nice to buy 1000 rounds for just over $200.

[JaPes]

I have a multi part answer:

1. If your budget has room, get both. 5.56 x 45mm NATO and 7.62 x 39mm are two of the most mass produced cartridges. While the AR-15 rules in the U.S.A., the AK-47 & AK-M is the most prolific rifle everywhere else.

2. If your purpose for acquiring a modern sporting rifle is primarily as a SHTF rifle, get a decent factory complete AR-15. As I said in #1, the ubiquitous AR-15 enjoys plentiful after-market support. That competition can drive down prices. 10 to 1 your friends have an AR-15 which means you can pool resources to keep your rifles up and running.

3. A Mini-14 and an AR-15 are designed to the same thing: close to intermediate range use. If you and your Mini-14 are accustomed to each other, the only reason to buy an AR-15 is in point #2.

4. An AK-47 or AK-M is its own special thing. There's nothing else like it. Does exactly what the AR-15 and Mini-14 are designed to do: close to intermediate range. It does it with a 30-caliber projectile. The AK has its quirks that you need to get used to, but IMO it is the ultimate SHTF rifle. Generous clearances, long stroke gas piston, tapered cartridge, low maintenance (it still needs to be maintained), and a generally simpler rifle. The only reason I don't prioritize it in the USA is because we are in the USA where the AR-15 is king.

Disclaimer:

While I advocate AR-15 ownership based on it being the most popular and ubiquitous modern sporting rifle in the U.S.A., I no longer own one. The AR-15 and I just don't get along. I prefer a long stroke or short stroke gas piston operating system. They're easier for me to maintain and keep running. I own an IWI Tavor and an RWC converted IZHMASH AK-M.

[hangnoose]

I don't know which I like less "evil assault rifle" or the PC correct "modern sporting rifle". My semi auto AK47 was a Romanian based Jim Fuller build with all the required US parts. You gotta love a gun that the instructions say not to clean it until after 1,000 rounds are fired. I'm partial to the "chopper", but like AR's also. I loaded my own 7.62x39 ammo with brass & good (clean) powder and have no idea how many thousands(?) of rounds it would fire before stopping. More than 1,000 I know for sure.

[sigp220.45]

Ugh, enough PC nonsense. We called them assault rifles forever, and they'll try to ban them no matter what we call them now. Same with "standard capacity" magazines.

[tbgunner88]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Ugh, enough PC nonsense. We called them assault rifles forever, and they'll try to ban them no matter what we call them now. Same with "standard capacity" magazines.

It's not so much PC nonsense as it is common sense, an inanimate object can't assault anything.

[M29since14]

At the risk of repeating myself (), I will say it again. If I didn't have an AR15 now and thought some day I might want one, I would be rounding one up. The S&W MP15s are nice but there are a slug of nice ones. If you'll only own one, maybe get the Colt and be done with it. In any case, I'd definitely put the AK thing on the back burner until the AR15 is nailed down... and don't forget the magazines.

[GatorFarmer]

I don't know. It seems a bit too modern, what to have a rifle that not only uses self contained cartridges, but smokeless powder too. Oh, I suppose a Krag or one of them '91 Mauser's might be worth taking a chance on, if you don't mind new things. But personally, I suggest an Enfield artillery carbine in .58 caliber...and then get rid of that new fangled percussion lock and find you a smith to convert it into a proper flintlock. It will still have that fancy riflin down the bore what kids want today, but you can cast your own bullets and bottle and process your own urine to make powder for it. Now it is true, they do not use a proper man size bullet like a .75 or .69 musket, and a .58 is a small bore....but it will get the job done.

[BigBill]

The Russian izhmash Saiga's ak/akm unmatched when it comes to dependability and reliability. Number one battle rifle on the planet. Battle field proven in any weather. Comes in 223, 7 62x39 & 308win. Very accurate.

[amazingflapjack]

I would prefer a gas cylinder plug operated rifle-and the 7.62X39 round as well.

[alwslate]

Nothing wrong with wanting an AK but the best choices in AKs remain
the same, the pre ban rifles. Probably the best pre ban AKs for the
money are the stamped receiver Chinese rifles. Several models were
made and the quality was high and the sheet metal was heavier than
the current crop and barrel dia was larger as well. As to ammo prices,
before the latest craze and prices brass cased 5.56 mm ammo could
be bought for $300.00 a case so there still is a good reason to
consider a good AR. For a one and only AR there are lots of options
but good buys in my opinion are the Colt 6720 and Bushmaster ORC.

[HOUSTON RICK]

Evidently, you have all the S&W revolvers and 1911's that you want?

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Originally Posted by HOUSTON RICK

Evidently, you have all the S&W revolvers and 1911's that you want?

Pretty much..........

[KLYDE]

Originally Posted by alwslate

......................................................................................................................................................................... For a one and only AR there are lots of options
but good buys in my opinion are the Colt 6720 and Bushmaster ORC.

I purchased a Bushmaster last Winter. Was not impressed with anything about it. I had gotten it on an LE promotion for a good price. I kept it new in the box. After getting my 39mm Windham and inspecting I promptly sold the Bushmaster and purchased another Windham in 5.56.

Windham was the original Bushmaster before Freedom Group bought them out and moved to Ilion NY. Windham reopened with most of the original employees. They are extremely dedicated to their product and I'll attest to it being excellent. Many quality components come standard. Chrome lined bore and chamber, M16 BCG, excellent triggers and quality attention to detail in the fit and finish. Hands down superior to the current Bushmaster. I have not owned a recent Colt. The last one I owned was a 2000 vintage. The Windham is at least equal to or better than that Colt, and I'd bet that Colt was better than the current crop. If you are serious about a decent priced, quality AR take a look at Windham.

If you are hesitant on an AR stay with the same platform you already have and get a Mini Thirty. I'll second what M29 posted above. Whatever you decide on getting, I'd get it quick. The clock is ticking.

[Arik]

Where to start. Ok.....for your intent Century MADE will probably be fine. Century has had SOOOO many problems over the years that many of us refuse to buy the guns they make. Coming back to the CA39 ....it's the 2nd version. The first had issues. This is revision #2. By all accounts it's fine. They did do away with the cleaning rod and bayo lug but you don't really need one. Again....for your purposes.

It will, or rather it should, run on steel case ammo. I say "should" only cause you don't know till you try it.

Stick with SURPLUS mags if you can. Used, besten, rusty battle mags still last longer and function better than commercial stuff. Aim Surplus has Polish surplus really arsenaled mags for $10/ea.

Look up on YouTube how to sight it in. It's not like an AR. AK47/74 Union has some good videos and explanations. Sight in with GOOD ammo.

[Sailfish 40]

Yugo Zastava NPAP DF AK Style Rifle, 7.62x39, with Underfolder Stock.

In my opinion this is currently the best deal on an AK.

[GatorFarmer]

The AK will seem more familiar if you are used to mag changes on the Mini 14. I had one of the Yugos before I left SC. It seemed a solid gun. I had the underfolder as I had wanted one. It was very 80s action movie cool, but I should have got a fixed stock. Eh.

I still say get a new model Mini14.

[BAM-BAM]

Life was so much simplier back in the days when the only choices were "ABC"..........Armalite , Bushmaster and Colt.

Remember the KISS principle.........Aimpoint, maybe a weapon's light and a sling.

My favorite for range/general use is an;14.5" old flat-top w/ fixed flash hider ( mid 90s) Bushmaster with an Ace fixed skeleton stock 1-4x20 Leupold scope (backup/flip up irons) and 10 round magpul mags.

At the range a lot of folks ask me what it is.... as it doesn't have much of an AR profile.



I also have a "new model" Mini...... one of the first run "NRA guns" w/ the new short (16.?") heavy barrel...... I'd had 2 mini's in the past and as a former Rifle Team shooter...I couldn't live with the stringing. The new ones are much better.... still not target rifles but a good to go utility .223. Mine wears a Hogue gillie green stock and a 1-3x20 Weaver V3 and I keep a mix of factory 10 and 20 round mags for it......10 round mags are very low profile.


I liked the "Lego's for men" comment.......

[gregintenn]

I'll throw another kink in this.

Caje, Do you own an SKS?

[rags]

Another 7.62x39 offering...




and the #811000 of which you speak.

[g8rb8]

Caj,
You know the "sporting rifles" are politically incorrect?

The good news is you've got a lot of good choices. The bad news is trying to sift through all the opinions.

Sound like you've already made up your mind on the S&W Sport II. I cannot comment on that choice as the only AR-15 platforms I've owned are Colt. S&W, along with a lot of other manufacturers, seem to have a good reputation so the S&W is probably a good choice.

Regarding AK-47's: Stamped versus milled receiver. Both are good and for all practical purposes the stamped receiver is probably as durable as a milled receiver. Buttstocks length: NATO (longer) versus Warsaw Pact (shorter). Most folks I know prefer the longer NATO buttstock. I could go on for a few paragraphs about subtle differences in various AK-47's but, from a practical viewpoint, it probably would affect your buying decision.

Over the years, as mentioned by Arik, the Century made products and some other "parts gun" products (foreign kits with U.S. receivers) have had a significant number of problems. I haven't followed those products the past 4-5 years to know if some of the issues have been fixed. A no-brainer for buying an AK-47 is to get a rifle 100% made in an arsenal that is dedicated to making the AK-47 which means a used pre-ban rifle, a "modified" or "sporsterized" post-ban rifle (i.e. a MAK-90), a rifle from Arsenal in Las Vegas or a Saiga Izhmash as mentioned by BigBill. There may be some other choices but those are the main ones I recall. Arsenal rifles are easy to order to your LGS via Davidson's Gallery of Guns with just a few clicks. My favorite AK-47's are pre-ban Chinese but they are getting hard to find and expensive. All said I imagine the Century product would probably be okay and $700 is cheap for a milled AK-47 rifle.

Just in case you're thinking of dragging it through creeks and the woods here is a "Cajun" review of the Century Arms CA39v2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFqsa_9qmE4

[BigBill]

I think in 7.62x39 the rifles don't get any better than a Chinese norinco sks wether it's a 20" barrel or a 16" paratrooper. There both very accurate.
The bore size is very important. The Chinese sks, Russian sks, Romanian sks, Albanian sks, are ok.

The yugo sks the bores are larger this runs into accuracy problems. Yugo bores can be as large as .3115". Now send a .308" bullet down the bore.

I think the yugo used the bore diameter for the industrial chrome linings. But had no chrome to line the bores and chambers.

The brand new Russian Izhmash Saiga sporting rifle is just that a Sporter.
I didn't want a used put away wet Ak/akm. I purchased saigas for hunting.

No matter which rifle you pick get the chromed line bore and chamber.

[RJJ 1971]

995TS 9mm carbine - just because I like to be different.
For me up to bout 100 yards with no optics needed (more skilled hands than mine) probably up to 150 -175 yards.

Plus for the price of the carbine and it's ammo - huge savings over AR or AK platform.

[alwslate]

I've seen a few articles about the Mini 30. 8" groups at 100 yds seems
to be the norm. I saw one test of a Mini 30 and a Chinese SKS
comparison. The 100 yd groups of the Mini 30 were double the size of
the SKS.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by GatorFarmer

The AK will seem more familiar if you are used to mag changes on the Mini 14. I had one of the Yugos before I left SC. It seemed a solid gun. I had the underfolder as I had wanted one. It was very 80s action movie cool, but I should have got a fixed stock. Eh.

I still say get a new model Mini14.

Originally Posted by Sailfish 40

Yugo Zastava NPAP DF AK Style Rifle, 7.62x39, with Underfolder Stock.

In my opinion this is currently the best deal on an AK.

Thus ^

Underfolder or downfolder.....same thing. Is cool till you try it. Either love it or hate it. Don't buy one till you shoot one

[Arik]

Originally Posted by BigBill

I think in 7.62x39 the rifles don't get any better than a Chinese norinco sks wether it's a 20" barrel or a 16" paratrooper. There both very accurate.
The bore size is very important. The Chinese sks, Russian sks, Romanian sks, Albanian sks, are ok.

The yugo sks the bores are larger this runs into accuracy problems. Yugo bores can be as large as .3115". Now send a .308" bullet down the bore.

I think the yugo used the bore diameter for the industrial chrome linings. But had no chrome to line the bores and chambers.

The brand new Russian Izhmash Saiga sporting rifle is just that a Sporter.
I didn't want a used put away wet Ak/akm. I purchased saigas for hunting.

No matter which rifle you pick get the chromed line bore and chamber.

As of last year there are no more Saigas imported. Ban!

SKS are fine but don't actually hold up to the use of AKs. In Russia they were a stop gap for 2 years then they went the way of the dodo. In Yugoslavia they were issued to 2nd line troops. Some saw action some didn't. Most SKS front line troops were there cause there was no AKs to arm them with. Even the Chinese and NK got rid of the SKS as a front line rifle in the 70s. Too many issues as a combat rifle.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by RJJ 1971

995TS 9mm carbine - just because I like to be different.
For me up to bout 100 yards with no optics needed (more skilled hands than mine) probably up to 150 -175 yards.

Plus for the price of the carbine and it's ammo - huge savings over AR or AK platform.

AK ammo per 1000 is only slightly more than 9mm

[KLYDE]

Originally Posted by g8rb8

Caj,

..................Just in case you're thinking of dragging it through creeks and the woods here is a "Cajun" review of the Century Arms CA39v2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFqsa_9qmE4

That video is an absolute classic.

[shotgun693]

If you want to hit anything with 7.62x39 beyond 100 yards get an SKS. With almost any AR you can actually hit a target out to 300+ yards.

[model70hunter]

I've owned 2 AK's. The 1st was 25 years ago, NIB yugo nice gun my son killed deer with it.

8 years ago I bought a cheap one in 223. The only good thing about it was I bought a few K rounds of 5.56. Maybe more than that.

It sat in my safe unboxed. I sold it and kept the ammo when the AK prices got pretty high and found an AR HBAR. I have fired many other AK's and worked on a few.

There is no comparison between the 2. Sure one may be the worlds #1 used battle rifle but it is only because of the friends they pick and the AK can be made with very little work.

The most important use of an AK is for firing in the air when celebrating.

I think the LE Colt or clone 6920 or similar is pretty nice.

But if one liked to be different and stir the pot one might buy an AK.

Wait a minute, on 2nd thought this gun was made for you. Pay attention to the good posts on brand, model and the best clips. No air fire celebrations at weddings or during duck season. $269 per K sounds good. Hope you find nice one.

P.S. I've watched some Matlocks, should regular folks get nervous when a lawyer says, wait a minute I'm confused, can you help me out here.......I vote we get nervous.

[GatorFarmer]

The SKS had a longer service life than most people realize. During the insurgency in Iraq, examples were still being captured by American forces. A Marine armorer I knew told me that these sometimes had cheap commercial Chinese optics on them. I had read that elsewhere as well. Apparently they were pressed into service as some sort of ersatz designated marksman rifle by insurgents.

They are also still used by liscensed hunters in Russia. Which means that there are ones that have seen 30 years of Siberia and kept on working.

As an added irony, guys during the Balkan wars grew up on American movies and would express a desire to visiting Americans for M16 type rifles. Grass is always greener.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by shotgun693

If you want to hit anything with 7.62x39 beyond 100 yards get an SKS. With almost any AR you can actually hit a target out to 300+ yards.

Um ok. Same sights, same twist, same bullet, similar barrel length. There is absolutely nothing magical about the SKS.

AK just under 100 yards. Ammo is Lapua


AK 200 yards Standing. Red dot




Same distance rapid fire


AK 300 yards. Red dot







I have some 400 yard shots. I'll post them when I find them

[Arik]

Originally Posted by GatorFarmer

The SKS had a longer service life than most people realize. During the insurgency in Iraq, examples were still being captured by American forces. A Marine armorer I knew told me that these sometimes had cheap commercial Chinese optics on them. I had read that elsewhere as well. Apparently they were pressed into service as some sort of ersatz designated marksman rifle by insurgents.

They are also still used by liscensed hunters in Russia. Which means that there are ones that have seen 30 years of Siberia and kept on working.

As an added irony, guys during the Balkan wars grew up on American movies and would express a desire to visiting Americans for M16 type rifles. Grass is always greener.

Russian SKS are smooth bore. There are laws against having rifles and how to obtain them. Most common rifles are smooth bore making them essentially shotguns.

There were lots of odd guns in Iraq and especially Afghanistan. Iraqis were using PPSH41 at one point during the war.

Balkan countries issued SKS to rear troops or when AKs were unavailable. Most countries dropped the SKS from front lines long ago.

[spad124]

I had a Century C15 A1, a repatriated M16 parts kit that Century built into an AR15A1, compete with a Century branded lower and triangular hand guards. It was ok, but the lower was sloppy and many of the parts were pretty worn. Accuracy was fair. Was it serviceable? Yes. That was traded for a shotgun.

Then I bought a Sport I. A much better rifle. The machining tolerances are much closer. It felt more like it was one gun instead of the Century which felt like an assembly of parts. Accurate also. If you want an good, inexpensive AR, get the Sport. If you want an AR with the carry handle, get the Sport and a $50 carry handle from fleabay and mount it. Many people take carry handles off to mount red dots so the handles are cheap. Much less expensive than the upcharge for a sku with a carry handle.

Personally, even though my Sport I was a very nice carbine I just didn't like a 16" barrel and a collapsible stock. So, the Sport was sold and I bought a quality M16 parts kit converted to semi auto, a quality 20" barrel and a quality lower. The result is what I think an AR should be-20" barrel, full stock and the triangular hand guards I used to see on the nightly news when I was a kid.

But, my Yugo SKS is still probably more fun to shoot and it likes the cheap steel cased Russian ammo best.

[KLYDE]

Thread wouldn't be complete without a review from the Guru.

YouTube

[ChattanoogaPhil]

You're right, there are a ton of choices.

Suggest getting an AR with folding front sight.
Learn to shoot it offhand, not like some guys we got at the Club who are glued to the bench.
Then get a decent trigger, red dot or scope.

[eveled]

Originally Posted by GatorFarmer

I still say get a new model Mini14.

This is my opinion too. I chose the mini, & I am sticking to it. I have one for each family member enough magazines, and lots of.ammo.

[M3Stuart]

Caj, I'm with you. I'm going down the same road. I've owned a SKS and a mini-14 but sold both when I could get my investment back out of them.

Here's the only contrarian opinion on this topic you're likely to hear: buy neither unless you have a real purpose for it. I own neither but keep thinking about it. Why? Because the topic keeps coming up and so many people have them.

If you think you'll need one when the SHTF, well, I hate to butcher Basil Plumley/Sam Elliott's quote in "We were soldier's once...", but here goes; '...by the time I need one there'll be plenty of them laying all over the ground...'.

IMHO; I have enough gun projects without messing with an AR or AK. But hey, if you need a hobby then go for it.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by M3Stuart

If you think you'll need one when the SHTF, well, I hate to butcher Basil Plumley/Sam Elliott's quote in "We were soldier's once...", but here goes; '...by the time I need one there'll be plenty of them laying all over the ground...'.

IMHO; I have enough gun projects without messing with an AR or AK. But hey, if you need a hobby then go for it.

SHTF doesn't have to be Mad Max apocalypse doomsday. Would Katrina count as SHTF? Didn't see too many firearms laying around.

Here's a guy guarding his house with a FAL

[M3Stuart]

With all due respect, that gentleman could defend his house with a .22, 20 gauge, revolver, 1911 or pretty much anything else.

[Irn-Bru]

I'd make my mind up and buy one ASAP. All the panic merchants are clearing the shelves.

[Philadelphia Patriot]

Originally Posted by Arik

SHTF doesn't have to be Mad Max apocalypse doomsday. Would Katrina count as SHTF? Didn't see too many firearms laying around.

Here's a guy guarding his house with a FAL

That's always been my response when somebody sarcastically asks me if I am preparing for "the revolution". I always reply "Not really, but more so for something like Hurricane Katrina or Sandy". When LEOs, National Guardsmen, and other first responders are thinly stretched around the area, who is going to protect your family and property from looters, criminals, and other dangerous people?

[Arik]

Originally Posted by M3Stuart

With all due respect, that gentleman could defend his house with a .22, 20 gauge, revolver, 1911 or pretty much anything else.

True. But he's sitting at an intersection with a view down 4 streets. A 20G isn't going to do much there

[M3Stuart]

I completely agree about the 20. But you kind of help make my point, because neither is a 5.56...that's why he has a .308. My point related to a 'specific purpose for the caliber'. In that particular pic, he probably needs something in a 308/30-06/270, AND, something like a riot (shot)gun.

Anyhoo, Caj will probably get the S&W and be done with it.