Thanks for the extensive info. The micro sights are different. The rear is similar to the one pictured but is engraved "Micro" on the right side. The front is a tall flat faced partridge. Went to look at it again and came home with a equally clean Mode 27-2 w 8 3/8" barrel. I've always been a vintage S&W revolver fan and it has been a while since I owned a 27. This one will get shot!

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Dave

As a matter of fact, my LE firearms training was back in that day: S&W Model 15 revolvers and Remington 870 Police shotguns (four round mag tube). The semi-auto training came much later.

As I also learned, virtually all LE 'shootouts' are over in a matter of seconds. Yes, extended firefights are possible, but not too likely. We did train on 'topping off' both revolver and shotgun, but it was difficult to do well (only extract/replace the fired cases quickly) in low-light, high-stress circumstances with the revolver.

I just think many people make too much negative fuss about magazine safeties.

I've been told the term 'Hi Power' is in comparison to the other pistols FN was offering: the Browning 1900, 1910 and 1922 in calibers 32 and 380 ACP and the Browning Baby in 25 ACP. Compared to them the P 35 was really 'Hi Power". It was the first locked breech pistol produced by the company.

I say buy it. The GP35 is a solid gun.

Sounds like you never heard of a Patek Philippe, Rolex or even an Oris watch. I guess you think plastic guns are elegant?

You don't understand, at the time the HP came out most people were armed with 6 shot revolver's , bad and good guy's, and most were not magnums. 6 shots of 38 special or 7 shots of 45 acp were the norm. 14 shots of 9mm was a step up . It wasn't the power of the round but the number of rounds it holds. If you have 14 and he has 6...you have an edge.
Watch the movie Serpico and you will get an understanding of the times and why the HP put you ahead in a bad spot. Watch for what gun Frank Serpico arms himself with.
Gary

The big issue with the BHPs magazine disconnect is that it effects the trigger pull. IMHO Systems used by Beretta and S&W don't effect the trigger the way the BHP system does.

With that said I have no use for them and whenever possible I remove them.

"Hi Power" was Brownings way of allauding to the thirteen round magazine, when all other nines had a much smaller capacity. It did not infer FPS

Prior to 1955, I know my Maternal Grandfather owned one with the high capacity magazine. One night he emptied the mag at an intruder, just outside my bedroom window. Obviously, he was just scaring the intruder because he was an excellent shot. I've always wanted to own that particular handgun. I entered the USAF that year; he died a couple of years later. One of his sons was a serious collector; I was never able to get him to admit he had the gun. His son inherited the collection; I now suspect his son, my second cousin, has it. These folks rarely sold a good gun. The next time I'm in KY, I'll see if it's still in family; and try to buy it. Dealing with family members is not easy.

Understood.
It was "high power" for its time.
Today, it is a medium power, at best.

C series are the quality equivalent of the late T series, except for hammer changes (Ts had ring hammers, Cs had spur hammers) and maybe the power of the mainspring and recoil springs (I believe the mainspring was increased, the recoil spring decreased - but check me on that). I think a good C series is nearly as desirable as a T series, it's just that the barrel bushing changed slightly from the original P35 type so the front of the slide looks a bit different.

I understand the new version of the classic P-35 will be marked the "BROWNING SOME POWER."

Fact is, a quartz movement is much more precise, doesn't require maintenance, can stand abuse that would kill a Patek Philippe, Rolex, or even an Oris, and costs a percent or two of the former's price.

I also don't use my Koa guitar as a hammer.

From what I understand, the early C series are the same gun as the Ts, just a new way of serial numbering them. Also, the early Cs did come with ring hammers as well as spur hammers. I think spurs came more after 1970 or 71? Here's a 69C series HP, as nice as any "T" prefix HP.

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Your facts about watches don't carry over to guns, my Glocks aren't electric and today SIG Sauers are definitely not more durable than my SIG P210-6.

The FN High Power set the standard for 9mm pistols. You NEED one!

But.....the price on the one you're looking at is , IMHO, too high by about $150 or so unless the extra stocks you mention are something custom made etc.. You can do much better than that.Look around on the auction sites and in local shops before you give in to the BHP fever.

See, the thing about analogies is that you have to be aware it's an analogy or it doesn't make sense.

Again, have to disagree with your factual claims. You should be aware that firing +p or +p+ through either your I'm sure very nice Sig p210, or a folded-steel slide P series, will likely cause (in the P210's case) frame cracks, or in the soft-steel folded slide P series case, breech block roll pin failures if they are not regularly replaced. Modern Sigs all have one piece milled/forged stainless steel slides designed for high pressure cartridges and from a Metallurgical point of view are superior.

Fact is, metallurgy is different for each of the above examples and is also a independent factor from BUILD QUALITY.

Like the old cop show said, "Just the facts, Ma'am." Facts are, use the right tool for the job, just because your Koa guitar can be used for a hammer doesn't mean you use it for one, it also doesn't mean you don't like Koa guitars better than hammers. But there I go with those hard analogies again. Sorry bout that.

What are the differences that set these apart from the 245 series? Is that series regarded as inferior? Just wondering, I don't see those in discussions like the T or C series.

That, is a good question, and I don't have a lot of information on the difference between late C series and the 245 stuff. I do know that as time progressed post 1970, much of Browning's complex designs were simplified in the methodology of their manufacture (and many of the complex long guns were sourced to Miroku in Japan - which were excellent but don't have the same cache as the Belgian stuff). Like most things Firearm, as time wore on, the artisinal quality of the work was reduced. Browning was more resistant than most to this but not immune, and I think that's the ultimate reason behind the 245 series lesser value. That said, I think any pre-cast frame high power is still a very high quality firearm, even though they are not as strong in absolute terms. The cast frame guns are still better than 95% of mass-assembly autos made today (I'd put recent Colt and Springfield gov't 1911s right in there, though not finished nearly as nicely.)

I am sure you are right in your thinking about this. My remark was directed toward the majority of the C series guns, which do have the spur hammer and bushing changes. Excellent pieces nonetheless (although they bite my hand more than the ring hammer)

I bought my Mk III Hi-Power new in 88. One of the best guns I have ever owned. Most recently it safely handled a factory double load, causing the casing to be stuck in the chamber. After the gunsmith removed it, the gun was certified safe with no damage.

I am sold on mine. It's accurate and can handle some nasty loads.

I have seen these selling used for as much as $1000. I bought mine for $450.

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Hi, I'm a true Smith & Wesson addict but have an opportunity to pick up a Hi-power. My question is if it a true Browning Hi-Power or not. The condition does have some spots but I here too many good things about these firearms. I'm struggling a bit to attach another pic.

Mike

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Source? Reference? Or your opinion?

My high power (that i used to own) had an original mag from the original owner, that held 14 rounds.
The whole time i owned it, i only put 100 rounds through her. I kept it for years never building any sentimental value for it- because i would hardly shoot it.

Oh yes. And hi power refers to the higher capacity. Or "grand puissance. "
Truly trumping Brownings design in the 1911, he created it to "supercede" the 1911 in capacity! Only foreigners at the time adopted the design at first. You should read up on it. Its history

This is not exactly true. The name comes from the grand puissance but what we know as the BHP was not designed by JMB. He was dead and in the ground by the time the BHP as we know it was in production.

Saive designed the larger capacity mag and he finished the pistol. Many people claim incorrectly that the BHP was intended to surpass the 1911 but the truth is is that it was a contract gun for the French. Made to the spec of the contract. JMB simply started the design to meet the contract. The French never adopted the gun but the Belgians did in 1935.

The gun we know as the BHP is more Saive than JMB. It was Saive who after JMB passed who incorporated aspects of the 1911 because patients had expired. This is well documented by Stephen R Blake and Anthony Vanderlinden's books where are 2 of the better books on the BHP.

Sir. Are you implying that Savie started the design for the grand puissance.

John Moses Browning moved to Belgium and died before the High Power could be completed

I wanted that post to do a little digging and reading and find out for himself.

Although you do credit Dieudonné Savie, it was Browning who started it.

Replied in the other thread. It is a fake FN Hi Power made by FEG. The L serial number with only 5 digits and the fact it has more modern features like the external exactor tell the story. It does not make it a bad gun it just makes it what it is. IMHO a $200 gun.

Yes and no. In one sense Saive got the ball rolling in another sense JMB did sort of a chicken vs the egg deal. FN wanted to submit a pistol for consideration for the French pistol trials which were in development. FN asked Savie to design a magazine which held 15 rounds to satisfy the contact spec. He did and this mag was given to JMB so he could design a pistol based on it. JMB produced two protypes.

One was a blowback design with a striker fired mechanism the second was a locked breech design which was also fired by a striker. It had a complicated breech bolt mechanism. The locked breech design was chosen over the blowback by the French. It was patent by JMB. You can see it in these patent docs. This gun is known as the Grand Rendement = High Yield.




JMB died and this is the last pistol he ever design. It was in the testing process of the French trials but they were still tweaking the design the contract specs. JMB never worked on the Grande Puissance at the time of his death the Grand Rendement design was completed but not adopted and it was never put into production. There are prototypes but it never was produced beyond a handful of pistols used for testing.

It is not until 1928 when the Grande Puissance we know as the BHP came into existence. Several of the US patents for the 1911 ran out on January 14 of 1928. This allowed Saive to combine the features of the Grand Rendement and the 1911. He created a 14+1 pistol with a 1911 style takedown. The breech bolt was scraped at this point. It got the rebounding firing pin. This gun became known initially as the Browning Model 1928. This was Saive's 3rd modification of JMBs last design.

From there Saive completed the pistol. By 1934 the pistol was ready for production and it looked very much like the gun we call the BHP. As I stated before it was not adopted by the French but many other buyers came calling. The largest being Belgium. In 1935 FN formally delivered the first of the Grande Puissance or "High Power". This was the first large contract order for the pistol and it is why many in Europe refer to it as the P35.

So IMHO JMB did not design the Grande Puissance he designed the Grand Rendement based on Saive's magazine design. Saive took the Grand Rendement design after JMB's death and designed the BHP AKA the Grande Puissance, P35 & FN Hi Power that we know today. If JMB lived there is no guarantee that the gun would have turned out the same. Again this is all detailed in R Blake Stevens "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol" and Anthony Vanderlinden's book FN Browning Pistols.

The BHP bares JMBs name because even 90 years after his death the Browning name sells pistols, shotguns and rifles. It did in 1935 and it still does today. One can argue that it held more gravitas in 1935 then it does today. Back then each of his designs was considered a leap forward. FN had the ability and the rights to capitalize on that name recognition and they did so. That is why the gun bears his name not because he designed it. IMHO YMMV

The original browning breech lock design is what the gun was and emulated by every clone Semi-auto today. John Browning was a genius and his work has touched many firearm builders today. I would argue when he left Utah and decided to work for the "fabrique National Herstal" in Belgium that Saive was able to help co- collaborate in the end and it was a fact that he died in Leige working on it. It is well known that not every detail of the gun was finished.

How many guns do we have that wouldn't work if they weren't conceived by Browning?

The 1911 wouldn't have existed and that's the tip of it. Neither would the HP or GP or GP-35 usw.

None of that makes him the designer of the grand puissance, "High Power" as you have stated. Yes the gun world owes a lot to JMB but just because the it uses the same lock breech does not mean he designed it. Did JMB design the CZ 75?

He did not leave Utah to "work" for FN. He was at the time and until the day of his death a contract worker. He did work under contract for both FN and Colt. They had an agreement in place to divide up the world into sales and patent regions for all JMB designs.

No one is trying to dispute JMBs genius or his role in the development of firearms instead I am just trying to put it into an accurate perspective.

Wait a minute. On both the designs you showed, it has his name as the INVENTOR.
On both designs. Look on the bottom corners!

This is what Wikipedia shows....



John M. Browning created the high power. Finished by Dieudonné Savie after his death. Lets give credit where credit is due and not pass on misinformation.

Im right. Your passing misinformation.

Adieu!
Au Revoir!
Goodbye!

The argument I've heard FOR the mag safety is that if you're in a scuffle for the gun and can drop the mag, you won't be shot with your own weapon. Thankfully, I'm not likely to be in that scenario.

Yes Wikipedia is the best source for information about everything and it is never wrong. The information I am posting is accurate. Please tell me what facts I got wrong. Now you and I can differ on who should get the most credit for the BHP as we know it today but to call my statements miss information would be inaccurate.

I have given credit where credit is due. I have explained in detail the development of the BHP and who did what.

The 2 pictures I post in my previous post are both of the Grand Rendement which was completed in 1927. This is the pistol that JMB designed based around Saive's 15 round magazine. It has his name on the patent because he patented it. This is what the pistol JMB made looks like.



It is not the same as the Grande Puissance. You can see the resemblance but you can also clearly see the differences to what we refer to as the BHP. Saive is the one who did most of the refinement of the original design. JMB was not in Belgium and the French were constantly changing the specs of the contract. After the initial trials Saive was the lead designer. This was done to save the time and costs trans Atlantic travel. I believe the original patent still held for the later design but functionally and ascetically they are different. I am not a patent attorney so I am not sure how that works.





Also if we are going to get nitpicky about small details your original statement about the meaning of "grand puissance" is incorrect. FN released the pistol as "Pistolet Browning Grande Puissance" The Browning High Power Pistol. It does not translate to high capacity as you state. Many people infer that the meaning of "high power" to be referring to the high capacity of the then powerful 9mm round.

Either way I recommend everyone read both the Stevens and Vanderlindens books about the development of the BHP. They are very informative and go into great detail about how the pistol was developed. Both have their flaws in terms of info but both are on the whole much more reliable sources then Wikipedia. IMHO

In the end they are wonderful pistols and am thankful that both JMB and Saive made it happen. The only reason I chimed in was that too often people present the BHP as JMBs attempt to improve upon the 1911. This is simply not the case. It is revisionist history.

JMB in the 1920s was a contract worker under contract with Colt and FN exclusively for pistols. He worked for them under contract to win contracts like the French which gave birth to his Grand Rendement. He in fact did not think that the 15 rounds were necessary but as a contract employee working on a contract he designed 2 guns to meet the spec. If he had total control over the project it would not have been a 15+1 gun. He did not choose the spec. He did not choose the capacity of the new gun. Many of the features of the gun were not under his total control but he built the best pistol he could within the spec of the contract. Just like he did with the 1911.

I cannot remember off the top of my head where I heard it but one use for the mag disconnect safety was for inspection and storage of the pistol. Once the mag is removed it is safe for inspection. Any pistol in the rack that has no mag inserted is also considered safe.

The drop the mag if you are in a scuffle is the justification often given to the S&W autos which have the same feature. It was a selling feature to many LEO agencies who were concerned that officers could be shot with their own guns.

That's because they were!!!

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Stay protected my friends.

14+1???? Where did you get that fact?

I disagree. Since it was JMB who designed the 1911, all Saive was doing was incorporating one JMB design into another JMB design.

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Stay protected my friends.

There is a story that the pistol was originally designed at the behest of the French Army. Second Lieutenants!!...and a magazine safety suddenly makes lot of sense.

here's one I bought new back sometime in the 80's

14+1 is a typo. Should have read 15+1. I will correct it but it does not change the validity of the post.

As to the point of disagreement I offer this up . https://forums.1911forum.com/showthr...9+Joseph+Saive

This was posted by Submoa who I believe posts here from time to time and is who I consider one of the best sources for BHP info. He has vast knowledge of the developement of the pistol, its history, usage and the variations vintages of production.

It is worth reading IMHO.

Here is another post which I believe supports my thoughts. 1911tuner is one of the most well known 1911 experts in the forum world. He posts on THR, TFL, 1911forum etc... He knows his 1911s and is a devoted fan of JMB. His knowledge of the 1911 platform and JMBs designs is well known and respected. If you have posted on other forums regarding 1911s I am sure you have seen his name come up.

In a similar discussion he posted this:

The two opinions that I have sited, which both authors have repeated on many occasions and a critical reading of both the R Blake Steven's and Anthony Vanderlinden's books lead me to the conclusion I have posted here.

I fully understand that others do not share my thoughts on the matter but I think that I have laid out a pretty strong case for Saive being the "father" of what we call the BHP.

Either way I am glad that the gun is what it is. It fits my hand better than any other gun I have ever shot. It points naturally for me and with a little work the trigger is excellent and allows me to run the gun to the best of my ability. I also love the 1911 but when I head to the range there is always a BHP in the bag.

Thanks for a fun discussion.

There's another story that says the Brit SAS, Rhodesian SAS, assorted other similar units using the same HP never took those magazine disconnects out of their HPs being used for anti-terrorist work. Despite having latitude to do almost anything to their weapons that they wanted to. So apparently, the magazine disconnect didn't cause them the same angst as it does others not using pistols at that same level.

Maybe they were all Second Lieutenants?

Not sure if the FBI HRT decided to remove the magazine disconnects from their HPs when they were using them. If they didn't, maybe they were purchasing agents?

As far as that goes, I'm not aware of the Belgians, Brits, Canadian, etc militaries who issued and used the HP for decades, deciding the magazine disconnect was a bad thing and having the gun plumbers remove them. Even though those militaries made other changes to the pistol - the Canadians changing the sear in their Inglis pistols as just one example.

What an owner wants to do to their HP to make it suit them is entirely their business, whether they remove the magazine disconnect, change the sights, grips, whatever. But the idea that "everybody knows" the magazine disconnect is a bad thing just waiting to happen simply isn't true.

My carry 69C that I've owned for about 40 years now and is my daily carry most of the time has a trigger pull a shade over 4.5 lbs. The only "work" that pistol has ever had is regular replacement of springs and lots of shooting. On the other end of the scale with my HPs, I have a Practical whose trigger pull is 16 lbs. Something seriously wrong there, and pulling the magazine disconnect won't change that. It will be making a trip to Don Williams in the somewhat near future for a set of Novaks along with getting that trigger sorted out.

Other than that, I think WVSig pretty much laid out an accurate outline of the history. If he (and the authors who wrote those books on the HP) are wrong, then the person that knows otherwise ought to write their own book.

Don does great work and is great to work with. I wish he was local to me I had to ship him the pistol and correspond over the phone mad via email but I enjoyed our interaction.

He took the time to figure out what the best way to get what I wanted done. He is an awesome smith and a gentleman.

He is my go to guy for a "working" Hi Power because his builds are always rock solid reliable.

It sounds like you have the yearn/burn for this one. The only known cure, and it is only temporary, is to buy it.

Contrary to some opinions, there are really only two Second Lieutenant jokes...all the rest of the stories are true! Some folks sense of humor is almost as lost as a 2LT

The joke part of it was understood by folks like me, particularly when not a zipperhead. Even more so when retiring with 30 years as a senior NCO who has dealt with raising many of the aforementioned Second Lieutenants...

However, given that there was ongoing discussion in the thread on the magazine disconnect, it was usable as what folks like you might call "a teachable moment".

Actually, it should have read 13+1.

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Stay protected my friends.

The early pistols had longer magazines. That was one of the many things that changed in the long tangled history of what eventually became the BHP. Regarding the use of Brownings name: FN trademarked it early on in their relationship. They could put it on whatever they wanted. A good example is the Browning "Baby". This was a .25 Auto designed by Saive that eventually superseded the FN/Browning 1905 (also produced by Colt). The name "Browning" sold firearms, pure and simple. There are some really good posts in this thread that explain the history of the High Power and dispel a lot of myths. I think we can all agree that none of the facts threaten JMB's status as probably the greatest firearms designer ever.

If you want to trim your budget by $250 to $300, AIM Surplus has been offering these Hi-Power MK IIs from Israel ( IDF) for around $500. Mechanically excellent, and can be left as is or used as a great foundation for a custom gun ( just as many of us have done with old 1911s). I own several Hi Powers ( IMHO the finest 9mm pistol ever made), in pristine condition but this thing is my shooter

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John