Mr. Cyrano, simple and to the point in regards to your last sentence sir. When one stops to reflect on that, I agree, sound, good advice! Those old Enfields have/still do, served as nightstand guns and simplicity of operation abounds with it. Thanks for your post!

David

What does a copy of, "The Webley Story" sell for these days?

I've never paid over $150 for a book. That was for a first edition of Jim Corbett's, "The Man-Eating Leopard of Rudraprayag." And I had a trade-in book.

Nonetheless, my teen daughter was surprised that books could cost that much. On the other hand, I was amazed at the prices that she cited for collectible Barbie dolls...

Texas, I balked at a "used" price of 400-dollars (Amazon, about a year ago). At the time this was the only area (Amazon) I could find any copy. I haven't checked lately and now is the time. I just can't see that high a price for the Webley Book. If I see any I will contact you on it. Our friend, Les, deals with ABLE and has good things to say about them.

Thanks Texas for your thoughtful, informative posts.

David

I have several Webleys from police agencies all over the Empire. But, this is my only Enfield .... a WWII .38/200 carried by the Federation of Malaya Police:





I'll post this Webley MkIV .38/200 from the Singapore Police Force because I bought it from Mark Stamps who wrote the book referenced above about Enfield revolvers...




Best,
Charles

British tradition: Warm beer, driving on the left hand side, Webley revolvers.

At least one works when the chips are down.

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S&WHF 366

David and Texas Star:

Abebooks has several copies of "The Webley Story", by William Chipchase Dowell, starting at about $120.

The Webley Story - AbeBooks

There is a much lower priced, similarly named book: "The Webley Service Revolver", by Robert Maze, available from Amazon and othe sources starting at about $14.95 used. I have this one on order from Amazon, plus the book that David recommended on the Enfield.

Guys, I know that you, David are former law enforcement, and you Texas, have a son who has served abroad for our country, and thought you might want to comment on a completely unrelated topic. I started a thread today about a self defense shooting by an 80 year old man here in my town less than 24 hours ago. If you would, check it out at:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/conceal...#post139052241

Apologizing in advance, David for the thread drift!!!

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Thanks for a great Webley thread, here on Smith & Wesson Forum. Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Webley are my favorite revolvers. No other brands need apply.

Only two Webleys live here. Both scruffy run-of-the-mill guns, an uncut "Boer War" Mark IV .455 and a World War II Mark IV .38/200. Both are fed "proper" handloads and both are loved.

Bryan, great photo in your post sir. Two "impressive" Brit subjects posing in front of all that great British literature. Thanks for showing us. Am very pleased to find you a friend of the Webley!

Policerevolvercollector, mighty fine set of Brit firearms in your collection sir, with lineage to former colonial interests of the Queen from both.

David

I agree with Texas Star. I do own "The Handgun" , "Sixguns" and the two volumes about the Webley revolver by Gordon Bruce. There is a good deal of info in them. Aldo I wished that the Gordon books where more specifik on date's of manufacture. I do own several Webley's wich I would like to show you. Probbebly some are posted early on this great forum.

Did you know that the Germans did have a devise to make a snap on the rim of a 9mm on 2 or three sides to use them in captured Webly MK IV revolvers. Ofcourse the pressure of the 9 mm is a lot stronger then the .38/200 so this wrecked the Webley after several shots. The Germans did not care about that. The had plenty of captured Webley MK IV revolvers.

What James Bond conserns. I was a bit suprised that after he recieved his Walther PPK I did saw a FN model 10 on his night stand.

On the pictures You find a MK V in .455 also a comercial MK III. You can easely pich out this model due is fat hammer and very small cilinderslots.
A 1951 made Webley MK IV used by the Dutch Police after WW II a Colt Police wich was on the picture I found of the MK IV. Prideauxloader for the Webley Fosbery ( or any other Webley .455) And the Webley Fosbery from 1906. Missed the MK VI photo. Reminds me that I do have to make more and better pictures of my loved Webley revolver. Hope to buy more good stuffin the future.

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Thuer: I just about fell through the floor!!! A Webley Fosbery!!! I don't know much about Webleys, but I know those are "scarcer than hen's teeth", if you will pardon an American idiom meaning "very rare"!!!!

You have some very nice Webleys there. Thank you for sharing with us.

I have been to your country five or six times, and love it there.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Tex--

That gun Connery displayed could also have been a 948 (in .22 LR) n'est ce pas?

Tim

Texas Star:

Well, if you think some books may be overpriced, wait til your daughter is in college. I'm still teaching, and I'm embarrassed at how much the textbooks for my classes cost. The publishers send them to faculty for free, but the students are paying outrageous prices for books. The PAPERBACK, not hardback book for my Introduction to Criminal Justice course is $198.00. Hardbacks can cost $300-$400 apiece. Heck, you can get a pretty nice revolver for what one of those books costs. It is a racket, if you ask me, and the publishers introduce new editions almost every year, so that it is hard to find used texts. But don't get me started on that.

I received one of the books that I ordered today, a modest little paperback: "The Webley Service Revolver" by Robert Maze published by Osprey, that British outfit that does a lot of military themed books. It is only about 80 pages, but costs only $18.95 at Amazon. I'll let you know what I think after I've read it.

Still waiting on the major books: The Handgun, and the one on Enfield revolvers.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I must confess that my love/study of the .380 Enfield would sometimes take me in directions that I loved to travel. Since the boys are all grown up and out making their path in life, my beautiful bride and I celebrated our 34th anniversary together down in Panama City Beach recently. We made the 4-hour trip from Columbus and stayed 4-days at one of the last Mom and Pop's left in PCB. This was in February and the crowd was very low. None of the summer time bumper to bumper traffic on Front Beach Road. Nowadays, I never leave home unarmed because I done got too old to fight and too old to run. My lovely bride still thinks of me as her strong warrior, I am anything but now. Most of the time my arm, for these special trips, is a snub nose Charter Arms Bulldog. A 2.5-inch stainless model that is easy to carry on my person in a inside-the-pants holster with a loose pull over shirt to conceal it from public view. This last Panama City Beach trip I added one of my Enfield's in a zipper gun rug, carefully positioned under the drivers seat. I also stoked 6-rounds of Remington .38S&W in my Brit arm and took 12-rounds of reloaded 200-gr. LRN as back up support. And off we went, carefully insured by Charter Arms and Enfield. I took much research material on the Enfield Revolver with me and had one of the "best" study sessions ever, sitting on the motel room balcony looking out upon "GOD'S" creation, in a beach sunset! Small simple things like this move me emotionally while reflecting upon "what" a Mighty Great God we have while observing his creation. Nothing man-made will ever compare!

The study of the Enfield Revolver was greatly enjoyed on this past, relaxing trip, I was able to get away with my best friend, to a special place made by GOD for our enjoyment. Study, the reflection of the material that I read, sipping a cold adult beverage, and praising GOD for His might, His perfection, and the many blessings HE has given me, like my British made Enfield No. 2 MK I* Revolvers! Another favorite Enfield story of mine. I hope it pleases my friends very much!

David

David, your stories are great!!! Glad to see a fellow former peace officer, as they used to call us, enjoying what he loves. I have a friend who used to teach with me here in WV, who lives a few miles north of Panama City. He just recently sold his other FL house in a little beach town called Navarre. Nice part of "Lower Alabama". I have enjoyed a number of trips to stay with him since he retired and moved there permanently.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les-

I recall very well that textbook publishers have a lot in common with the pharmacy business.

I had to sell several guns to buy textbooks when GI Bill checks arrived late and college had begun and I needed books. I'm still very bitter about that. One of those guns was a very nice Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Another was a S&W MK II .455 that would now be worth over a thousand dollars in that condition.

My daughter is now older than in the example that I gave and has her Master's Degree (with high honor) and is teaching. She, too, and her brother had to find money for those overpriced textbooks. Grants and scholarships helped a lot. And her brother had the GI Education Bill to help, as I did.

My SIL is not a veteran and didn't have that advantage. He was especially unhappy with book prices. My DIL hasn't mentioned what she paid for books, but she is a scientist in a specialized biological field, and I bet it was a bunch. Her dad is a professor, but not in that field, so no free books.

Textbook cost and the pharmacy industry are American scandals.

It amazes me that some gun and hunting books that originally sold for prices like $6.95 are now worth so much. And I'm sure that copies of the Gutenberg Bible were once much cheaper!

Tim--

Possibly, but the odds are that it was a .32 or .380. Even if a .22, which I think Boothroyd used in the film seen in a link here, it wasn't a .25, and Bond's Beretta .25 would be much smaller than a M-948.

I do know the 948. I have the Beretta books by Wilson and by Held & Morin and by Wood and am on the Beretta board.

BTW, a topic on that board showed which Beretta .22 the Mossad used. It was a fixed sight version of the M-71.They even showed pages from an Israeli manual about it, in Hebrew. To me, it may as well have been Greek, but was interesting to see.

Look carefully at that gun scene in, "Dr. No." Look at the Beretta as it was handled and moved. It seems to me to be the weight of a steel .380 M-34, not the lighter weight of the M-948, which normally had a light alloy frame.

Wartime captures alone would have had many more M-34 and M-35 Berettas in the UK when the film was made. But there's some chance it was a M-948. The only people who'd know are probably now dead. I doubt if Connery has any idea, nor would the producers, unless they know guns a LOT better than most film people do.

Bond gave the PPK box to Miss Moneypenney as he left the office. I hope she didn't throw it in the trash. In real life, I guess she'd have called Maj. B. to come get it and he'd have stored it in the armory.

BTW, I liked Mary Goodnight better than I did Moneypenney. She was played by a Swedish actress who was married at different times to both Peter Sellers and to Rod Stewart. She published an autobiography, "True Britt", which I recommend if you can find a copy. She is, of course, Britt Ekland. (Bond girl Maud Adams is also a Swede, despite her British sounding name.)

Texas Star:

Not only is the gun that Bond hands over to M not a Beretta 25, later in the movie, when he is waiting in the Chinese girls house in the hills for the guy who supposedly analyses the debris from the boat he has what looks like an FN or Browning model 1910 with a silencer (possibly the later model sold in this country as the Browning 1955).

Here's James Bond with "you've had your six"



Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

David, Texas Star, other posters on this thread:

Well, I just had to see what the excitement is all about. On a whim, I bid on this Enfield on Gunbroker this morning between classes, and just found out that I bought it. Talk about impulse buying.... Well, obviously I haven't seen the actual gun yet, bit here is a photo supplied by the seller:



I'll keep you guys posted about the results. I'm still waiting on "The Handgun", and the Enfield book, so will have some fun researching, as well as doing shooting tests when everything comes in.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les, it's not a whim. You're sick. Please, do not start looking at Enfield rifles in your present condition.
Nicely done!

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

Oh Les! Great, great catch fine sir! Now when that Enfield literature you ordered comes in, you may find yourself and new-to-you .380/200 No. 2 MK I* spending a lot of time together.

Les, congratulations on your Enfield. Please give us the data when convenient fine sir. A great day this is for you!

David

Les-

Yes, that's a Browning M-1910 that Bond used the silencer on. I spotted that in the theater when that was a newly released movie. I think I also recall seeing a Walther PP in one scene in lieu of the correct PPK. The prop department had shortages or was careless. Look at the analyst's gun that let him "have your six" and which was identified as an S&W. It's a Colt Govt Model.

I think in the book the black assassins who killed Cdr. Strangways and his secretary did use silenced .45 autos.

If the movie had trouble getting a silenced S&W (revolvers other than the Nagant can't easily be silenced), they need only have written the script to reflect that it was a Colt and had fired seven or eight shots. That was just careless.

In the book, Dr . No's men had .30 US carbines and S&W .38 revolvers, " the usual model". Fleming didn't know S&W models well, but he clearly had the M&P/Model 10 in mind. He'd have seen them in WWII. Could be Victory models (the book was published in 1958) or may have been commercial guns. The reader is free to visualize whichever version he prefers.

Our Dutch member, Theur, also mentioned that M-1910 Browning in this thread. BTW, does everyone here understand his board name? So many here know only about S&W that they may not catch that Colt association.

That Enfield .38 that you bought looks pretty rough. Did you just buy it to get a low price? I'd have held out for a better one, preferably with the earlier grips and the selective DA action. But let us know how it shoots ...at very close range! In one edition of his famous, "Small Arms of the World", W.H.B. Smith referred to the DA pull by saying, "And brother, we mean PULL!" But some are probably better than others in that regard. And the Buffalo Bore .38 S&W ammo should prove effective on snakes and small game and on most humans at close range. If you try it and the 125 grain lead SWC bullet shoots to the sights, let us know.

Les, for myself, I found all the "markings" found about an Enfield No. 2 a fascinating case study! The book by Stamps/Skennerton covers that in close detail with photos for thick-headed fellas, like me, to better understand. The brass disc on the grip was a mystery to me until I got my hands on that same detailed book. Any and everything about the Enfield has grabbed my interest since acquiring my first No. 2. The books you've got ordered will only make your interest grow. Thanks again Texas and Les! You guys have got my interest fire stoked again!

David

Can you believe that the British Army issued just 12 rounds per soldier armed with a revolver? That's for WWII; I don't know about earlier conflicts.

This seems to be confirmed in a book called, The Golden Carpet, about the war in the Middle East. Service model .38's were mentioned several times, probably Enfields as no brand was noted. The author was a member of Parliament, but serving as an officer. He borrowed some ammo from his general before a battle, due to difficulty in getting ammo through supply channels. The general wore a different gun, type not stated, so had no urgent need for his ration of .38 cartridges.

But in, The Brazen Chariots, the author seems not to have had trouble getting replacement ammo, as he sometimes fired his .38 at Germans from the turret hatch as his tank ran through them. Maybe he was scrounging ammo from British dead and severely wounded, who were being evacuated to hospitals. ?? One officer whose book I read said that he led his troops into battle at El Alamein with just nine cartridges for his .38!

Commando units seem to have gotten more ammo, as did paratroopers and others especially likely to use their handguns and who received extensive training with them.

David and Texas and others, I have an update on the local self defense shooting:check out my updated thread: "Elderly Man Defends Self in Home Invasion" Updated 4/22/2016

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Wel, David, Texas Star, and all the other Enfield/Webley fans, here's an update. I received the little Webley book yesterday. Today I received the Stamps/Skennerton book that David recommended. Very nice little book. Hard bound, sewn in signatures, so the pages won't be falling out when the glue dries up. I'm a book collector too, so little details like that are important. Of course, the content is the most important part. So far I love it. It's a technical history type narrative, but well written, reads as easy as a novel. I know it's reference material, but my usual approach on a small reference like this is to just read through like I would a novel, then go back and focus on areas that are of further interest, then to keep in my shelves for further reference. Just finished about the first 40 pages out of 125.

David: My Enfield, according to UPS, left Baton Rouge yesterday at about 4:11 PM. Remember, I only won the auction at about 11:00 yesterday morning, so this was exceptional service by the seller. It has now traveled to New Orleans, and from there to Montgomery, AL, and from the it has went to Doraville, GA, where it will continue its journey anon. I love tracking numbers. Expected arrival here is Tuesday, April 26th, 2016.

I'm still waiting on the big "The Handgun" book. But at Texas' recommendation, I consulted with my three older copies of "Small Arms of the World". Just doing my homework!!! When it comes to Enfields, you guys are the professors, and I am the student!!!

Texas: yes, the Enfield that I bought does look a little rough, but the bore looked shiny, and I didn't want to invest too much on my first venture. Thought I'd see what they were like, and then keep an eye out for a better condition specimen after I learn a little more about them. Oh, yes, I've seen a few of the little Colt derringers that I believe were associated with, and perhaps named after Theur. I almost bought an original up at our Cabela's once, but was able to restrain myself. I do collect some Colts, mostly revolvers. My oldest is one of the 38 Colt chambered 1877 Lightning models, in perfect working condition. I also have a small collection of Colt revolvers and automatics, I'm not sure how many, 15 or 20, I guess. I'll have to get them together for a family portrait someday. You have already seen my 38 super Colt Commander, and maybe (posted on another thread yesterday) my Army Special. Also posted recently was my 1917 New Service Colt. Well, enough thread drift....

Best regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les, glad to hear about the Stamps/Skennerton Book arriving. Mine is the paperback and was purchased not long after its first publication date in paperback. I must invest in the hardback version, like yours, because of the written notes/high-lighted paragraphs and such. I also recorded the serial numbers of my Enfields in it and added a few pages of additional Enfield data to it. A student of Enfield history here!

Texas, the Handgun book arrived yesterday afternoon. Everything you said, it was! It covers "all" the handguns I find interesting and is loaded down with data that I've never read before!

Texas, in reference to your previous post about "limited" .380 ammo availability, you are dead on. In the Enfield book, the author mentions a Armourer Sgt. that makes this statement in regards to .380 ammo for practice;

"TWO ROUNDS PER MAN PER YEAR PERHAPS!"

Texas/Les, thanks for the great posts. Les, I wish your Enfield a "speedy" arrival for your inspection.

David

Well, Tex & guys. I got the Boothroyd book from the library. It is a book from the day when books were heavy. Thumbed through it and found my Webley Mark III in a six inch version right away. I too found it full of most interesting info.
By the time it goes back to the library I'll have my own though. I just spent some money at Abe's.
I popped for the first edition American. It's kinda BS as a real first edition would be British. Anyway it's in VG shape, including the dust cover, and that's what I like.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

Couldn't stand it no longer. With all the interesting Enfield and Webley posts I put the 1965 movie, "Flight of the Phoenix" video in the player and re-watched a great movie with some great stars playing in it. Of course, a small portion of my interest was in the lone Enfield No. 2 Revolver. Two of the crash survivors were British soldiers, one an officer, and this is where the Enfield came from. There was a closeup of this same Enfield-in-action as the pilot, played by Jimmy Stewart, dispatched a lame camel with it. He (Stewart) put six-rounds of .380 into the animal, sort of a rebuttal against the murderous Arabs, that had killed two of the surviving passengers from the plane crash. The Arabs left the camel , after murdering/torturing the two passengers, behind because of its bad leg. A movie without political correctness as the 2004 remake of this movie, has Asian Nomads in Africa. Didn't want to offend the poor Muslim Arabs that are oppressing the West, and have been doing so for years! Anyway, I love the movie with the Enfield as a major co-star. It appeared to be a No. 2 MK I* Model very similar to the one my friend "Les" has bought. Thanks again all!

David

The markings about the Enfield Revolver are numerous. The book on Enfield No. 2 Revolver by Stamps/Skennerton has a chapter specifically on this subject. There is one marking that I have just a vague notion on its meaning. The marking I'm speaking of is common to the Enfield. It is located on the left-side of the barrel and is this;

*38" 767
3.5 TONS

Could someone give me a clear explanation on the 767 and what the 3.5 TONS means?

This subject matter is super-interesting to me and Les, I think you're gonna have a great time with your new Enfield and great book on the same.

David

I think that the 3.5 Tons refers to the "proof" it has had a proof cartrige fired through it which generated 3.5 tons of pressure per square inch, or 7,000 pounds per square inch. My Webley MK VI has a similar mark which has the poundage followed by a little picture of a square, followed by the " mark. It also has the opposing Broad Arrows, indicating that it has been released from Crown Service. This is mentioned briefly on page 115 of my copy of Stamps-Skennerton. It says that this is a post release commercial Nitro Proof Mark applied before commercial sale or export.

Here is a picture of the (BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof) proof marks on my Webley MK VI:



7:39 pm, 4/24/2016 - I corrected an error in the above posting. London and Birmingham have different prefixes to the proof poundage: in this photo, we are seeing the BNP, or Birmingham Mark.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les, your explanation clears it up for me now. I was just there part of the way, you've made it easy for me to understand now. I thank you sir!

David

David-

I'm not sure we can post it here, but try to find Churchill's evaluation of Islam, ca. 1898. Wilbur Smith excerpted part of it for the title of one of his novels, The Triumph of the Sun.

Although he was still just a junior cavalry officer then, he had fought Muslims and knew their culture and its effects.

You asked about the 767 markings on guns. I think it's the ctg. case length. 767".

Texas: take a look at the markings on my Webley MK VI above: it is marked .455" .760". I think that is it! Well, I hadn't given much thought to it at all til now, but I'll bet that is the length of the .455 Webley cartridge. Well, David, that clears up one more detail. I'll be in the shop tomorrow, and have some .455 cartridges there, and just to follow up, will measure the casing length. Unfortunately, my revolver has been modified to take the .45 ACP round, or the .45 Auto Rim, but I never shoot full power loads in it, hand loading some Auto Rims to about the power of the old Webley round.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Texas Star has it right: .767" is the length of the 38 S&W case.

For a long time I have puzzled over those "767" and the "tons" markings. I had a rough idea about the tons stamping but wasn't sure at all. The 767 was one, despite the data I had, eluded me. Thanks to my friends, these two are cleared up now. While working a part-time yesterday, I was able to record this info into my Webley & Enfield books for future reference.

I really appreciate my friend, Texas, on his Winston Churchill reference in his last post. Texas has opened some doors for me with his suggestions of resources/books to check out and continue my Webley/Enfield and World History education. In a world of political correctness propaganda, he (Texas) shows me the path to take with his suggestions.

The Handgun book is superb Texas! Thanks much!

David

Texas, I "googled" Winston Churchill and the subject matter of that post. In the writings of a 25-year old Churchill in 1899, he warns us today in 2016, the "real" threat this is. Thanks again Mr. Texas! As a sidebar, I have seen photos of a young Brit Officer (Churchill ) packing a Broomhandle Mauser as a personal sidearm.

Had the Enfield MK II .476 been completely removed from Army issue during the 1897-99 Sudan years of Churchill's career? I know the Webley had already took center stage then, but was wondering if the Webley Revolver supply had run thin, could the older Enfield MK II been brought back out for general issue to address shortages? Just speculation on my part.

David

David, Texas, and all the other posters who have been following this thread:

To day was a great day for me, I finally received my copy of Boothroyd's "The Handgun", I had already received the ".380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver", and "The Webley Service Revolver". Also, today I received my Enfield No. 2 MK I* revolver. I have not had time to read much of the new book, or do much with the revolver, but here is a quick picture of them altogether with a quick backyard target.



The "target" was fired at 30 feet, double action, naturally, since that's all you can do with this particular gun, using some of the commercial PPU Serbian 145 gr LRN .38 S&W ammunition. I have some British service ammo around some where that I will eventually try.

Quick impression: Texas was correct, the gun looks a little rough, but doesn't seem as rough in person as it does in the photos. Finish is mostly patina, but seems as though it has been carried and handled a lot, and shot not so much. The bore is bright, no frosting or corrosion or pitting. Looks like new, ditto for the chambers. It locks up tight, ad the trigger pull is smooth and not nearly as heavy as I imagined from everyone's description. Unfortunately, someone has removed the lanyard swivel. With this ammunition, and at 30 feet, it seems to be grouping about 4 1/2" low, and about an inch to the right. The group is about 2 1/2" by 1"... Not a bad group for ten yards.

Edit... I think I see why the group is an inch to the right... The gun is fitted with a sight blade marked L, and is cut so that it sets to the left of the barrel rib. It causes one to hold just about enough right to cause the group to shoot about an inch right.

I'll certainly share my further experiences with the forum, but just wanted to send out a quick update. So far I am still pretty excited to be playing around with something "new"...(to me at least).

David, I can see how you might have formed an attachment for these cool revolvers.

Texas, you were right about that book, can't imagine how I missed it all these years. So far I've just glanced at it, but it will make a valuable addition to my firearms library.

Best Regards for now...

Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Watch out for that British service ammo: It's corrosive.

Les, what treasures you have on display in photo! Your No. 2 MK I* Enfield looks beau-ti-ful! From the nice photo the grips and outside finish appear as you say, a carried much shot little or none Enfield. A great find for the collector and all around nice guy! Thanks so much for showing us sir!

David

This thread has peaked my interest more than any other on any forum in a long time. Great motivation from Dabney, Les and the rest of ya. I too have ordered some literature, have been enjoying hours researching the web, and am buying Webley and an Enfield Talk about great therapy for an old revolver guy !

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John

Just got a bad monkey off my back, called yearly qualification. Bad karma for myself and glad its in the rearview mirror of my life, now good karma is a British Enfield No. 2, like my friend Les just got. Wow, that is a real treasure for the Enfield No. 2 collector! After my first Enfield purchase, I really became interested in this firearm and would collect and save any Enfield articles I came across in gun publications/magazines. Built up a considerable amount of info on a favorite British subject of mine. Then, of course, I delved into the .380 British Webley MK IV and have managed two 5-inchers, the "War Model" versions. I wish that I had went ahead and gave that gentleman at a local gun show the 300-dollars he wanted for a nice .455 MK IV Webley back in the early 90's. My interest (then) resided with the .380 Models and I missed a great deal on a "legendary" British sidearm.

I mentioned in a previous post, meeting and becoming friends with an elderly WW2 vet who brought home an Enfield after the war. He is responsible for my Enfield love that continues to return to me time and again. Thanks to Les, Texas, and others here they got my Enfield-fever burning red hot again! This in turn returns me to a favorite time in my life as a small town Chief of Police and being introduced to the Brit revolver of WW2 fame by this same vet. He allowed me to shoot it on those lazy Sunday afternoons in a secluded area of the Chattahoochee River, on the bank-side. We swapped revolvers as he shot my duty arm, a Colt Official Police and I, his Enfield. Not long after my first Sunday afternoon shooting session with that wonderful man, I would purchase my first No. 2 MK I* Enfield. Got some factory ammo, Remington .38 S&W I believe, and became good friends with this Brit-made arm. Real good friends!

During my service as Chief, I would sometimes substitute my Colt OP for my British Enfield and actually carried it on duty a few times. I know some would balk, but in the low crime/no crime area of this small town I was just fine. I really became enamored with it and got a kick out of packing it (on-duty) from time to time. I had became acquainted with the idiosyncracies of the Enfield and was confident with it under that backdrop. I would later add four more of these revolvers for a small collection and continue on with my Enfield-Webley study. My thanks to you and I hope my duty carry doesn't upset too many because I really loved doing it. Frequent traveling companion to Panama City Beach, under my seat, in a zipper gun rug. It was good insurance for travel or that "bump-in-the-middle-of-the-night" that spells trouble.

David

David:

Glad you have that qualification behind you. I still keep up at least yearly qualification with my old department in order to keep my LEOSA active. I also have a West Virgina concealed carry permit, which is now accepted in something like 39 states. I also have a Florida Concealed carry permit. At one time, WV did not have reciprocity with either Georgia or Alabama, and there is no way to drive to Florida without going through one of those states. So I got a Florida permit, which was and still is good in GA and AL. I have a good friend, former Police Chief, and then college professor like myself who lives in Florida since he retired, and I go down to visit with him now and then, and always drive . Don't know if I'll renew it when it expires in 2018, since WV's is now good in, I believe all of the states that honor FL's. Well, we'll see. Why have both LEOSA and a Concealed Carry permit? Partly like a belt and suspenders thing. I'm always worried that I'll be somewhere where they don't know about LEOSA, but honor the state permit, or vice versa. Also, a backup in case I miss the yearly qualification necessary for retired guys to carry. heck, here in West Virginia, they just passed a law that you don't even need a permit to carry concealed. We have never had a law against open carry here, and have never had a problem with that, so I don't really anticipate any problems when this new law becomes effective June 5th of this year. I think everyone who wanted to carry a gun was already doing so anyway.

I always enjoy your stories, and am now enjoying tinkering with my "new" Enfield No 2. I have already found the issue with the front sight that I mentioned in my above post. It seems, based on my single specimen, that there were different blades that you could interchange to adjust for windage, and probably for elevation as well. Mine is marked "L", and clearly sits in the groove that is in the barrel rib off to the left. It is specifically machined to do so. I will try to photograph it and add to this post so you can see what I'm trying to describe. It would be neat to find a source for other blades, made to sit in the center of the rib, and on the right. This is probably something that others know about, but it is all new to me, even though most of these were made before I was born.

Here is the front sight viewed from the muzzle, see how it sets to the shooters left:



Here is a view looking down on the barrel from the shooters right, behind the sight. See how the blade is positioned to the left? Yet the channel in which it sets is dead center on the rib.



And here is another view, you can see the "L" stamp on the blade. I would deduce that there must be I stamped ordinary blades, and ones stamped "R", which would set to the shooters right.



Well, that's enough minutiae for tonight!!! Probably put some readers to sleep!!!

Best regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Texas Star,
My apologies for my post somehow convincing someone that your words were mine. That was never my intention. How you could be so certain that I had never seen the book amazes me..you are correct..how did you know?

I haven't read any of the Fleming novels since the mid 1960's or so. As I recall the stories & their details were not precisely followed from book to film. To put myself in the frying pan again..I seem to recall JB using a Colt Police Positive Special in the book "The Spy Who Loved me"

Best.

Les, you got my curiosity going and I went and retrieved my bedside Enfield for a quick check of the front sight. My battered, but unbowed Enfield, has a tiny marking on the front sight blade. Too small for me to see, even with my bi-focals. The blade seats dead center on the post however one of my Webley MK IV's has this off-center front sight like your Enfield. However in shooting, under 10-feet, it is accurate enough to be fatal. Les, you got a great firearm in your Enfield! Your enclosed target picture shows me that yours too, is accurate enough to be fatal! Thanks for your pictures and post Mr. Les!

David

Yesterday, "the book" was delivered from Abe's. Thought it would take two weeks, but three days is better.
Much nicer than the library copy. Published by Crown in 1970. I like my books, and The Handgun is a fine addition to the library.
Enjoying the thread too, so you guys just chatter away.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

The Enfield Revolver, whether it be the .476 Model or the .380 Model, has always been a symbol of "good" and was readily identified as an arm of the British Military. This also includes the legendary Webley Models. For myself, I see these firearms as symbols of British prestige, might, and power. I visualize the British Officer standing tall, standing proud, facing down over whelming adversity armed with Webley/Enfield Revolver, most likely ingrained from watching the movies "ZULU" and "ZULU DAWN" too many times. But make no mistake, these Brit guns captured my imagination as a young man, thrilled me to death when I finally acquired one, and made me a prisoner to collecting these wonderful arms. It is also rewarding to find like-minded people here that also appreciate these arms. The search for new data on these never ceases with the collector/shooter. When the Stamps/Skennerton book(.380 Enfield no. 2 Revolver) came out in the 1990's, it created a big "stir" to Enfield collectors. The Webley book, mentioned in previous posts, is just too expensive for my pocketbook. I would love to find one, reasonably priced. Anyway, thanks to all who have posted here. It is always interesting to hear what other Webley/Enfield friends have to say. Thank you again my friends!

David

David, just a footnote on the front sight issue I mentioned in my post #92 above, I found a reference in the Stamps-Skennerton book on p 61, to there being three different front sight blades. Standard, left off-set, .02", and right off-set, .02". So my initial deduction seems accurate. Remember, even though one of my first handguns was a Webley back in 1960s, this is my first Enfield, and all this is new to me.

M1A: I just got my "The Handgun" a few days ago also from "Abe's". It's quite a handful. I have a feeling that some of my summer vacation reading is just ahead. But I just recently finished all three volumes of the biography of Sir Bernard Montgomery (Monty), so I'm up for a little "heavy" reading. For those of you who haven't seen this book, and I had never heard of it until our friend Texas Star mentioned it, it is HEAVY. You literally get your money's worth, by the pound. By the way, Abebooks have copies of this book at very reasonable prices.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I just checked the front sight blade of my 1936 dated Enfield. It's marked 'N' on the right side near the front.

I'm not sure if I can post a link to see a whole movie here, so go to YouTube anD LOOK FOR A FILM FROM ABOUT 1960 CALleD, "fLAME oVER India". I JUst SAW IT THERE, AND YOU GET THE ENTRE FILM.

iT' S ONE OF THE BEST FOR SEEING Webley REVOLVERS AND Enfield RIFLES.

kEEP IN MIND THAT IT'S SET IN 1905. I GUESS THE RIFLES ARE MEANT TO BE smle nO. 1 mk i'S, ALThOUgH I BET Indian TROOPS THEN HAD MORE LONG LE'S. bUT LOOK AT THE RIFLES CARRIED BY THE EXTAS. SOME SOLDIers have No. 4 rifles! I think these men were real Indian soldiers, and carried what they had.

Sorry for the messy post . I'm up all night and going to bed. No time to re-type when the BLEEPING Caps Lock comes on. I look down to type and by the time I see the result, it takes forever to re-type. Sometimes, my patience fails.

Look carefully at the Captain's Webley (s) One is def. a MK VI, but I think I saw a different one in a scene or two. Look also for the old Maxim gun on the train. I think the barrel jacket is brass.

The officer couldn't have had a MK VI in 1905, as it wasn't made until ten years later. But Webley was then making an Army Model that looked a lot like a MK VI except for the front sight being like on a MK IV. The Wilkinson-Webley Model of 1905 had just come out, and it looked a lot like a MK VI. Could he have just bought a brand new one? Maybe. I'm sure the film people did the best they could.

You guys who bought the Boothroyd book can find Webleys of that day therein.

If you watch, "Flame Over India", let me know if you like it. It has a good cast, inc, Kenneth More and Lauren Bacall and Herbert Lom. I liked it so well that I bought the DVD. It was in theaters when I was a teen and I first saw it then.

QUOTE=Cyrano;139068170]I just checked the front sight blade of my 1936 dated Enfield. It's marked 'N' on the right side near the front.[/QUOTE]

Colin-

That means it's best sighted to hit enemy charging from the North.

Seriously, I bet it means, Normal. Not L or R.