Back in the early 1980's, I became enamored with the WW2-era .380-200 British Enfield No. 2 MK I* Revolver. These break-top wheel guns were a throw-back to the .455 Webley of WW1 times and even further back to the Zulu Wars of the late 1800's. The image of the tall, brave British Officer, armed with his break top Enfield .476 Revolver, standing tall in the face of a fierce Zulu Warrior charge has always captured my imagination. The Enfield Revolvers of WW2 were chambered in the .380 British or our .38 Smith & Wesson cartridge. A short pudgy .38 round traveling at a very modest velocity served the British Military and home defense forces during the war and for many years after. I understand that India, a former Brit colony still uses this cartridge in Ruger Police Service-Six Revolvers for their home defense forces. The Enfield has always been interesting to me as a collector firearm and for a while could be had on the cheap-side. There were but three Enfield makers during WW2, the Enfield Factory itself, Howard Auto Cultivators (HAC) of Sydney, Australia, and Albion Motors of Scotland. These three put out Enfields during the War, with the biggest producer being the Enfield Factory. The Enfields were transferred to former colonial interests after the War, some in use to this day, I'm told. I've managed a modest collection of these British handguns down through the years due to the low cost. Nowadays, a pristine Enfield will bring 300-dollars or more and I keep my best one charged with Remington 145-grain LRN ammo as a house gun. From time to time, I enjoy capping off a few rounds at the range, and under 20-feet, a small group can be obtained. The ultra-reliable Enfield, chambered in .380-200, will make most intruders, with evil intent, leave your property (home) post hast! Drugged up terminators are not included here, cause my old bolt-action JC Higgins 12-gauge Shotgun loaded with No. 7 birdshot stands at the ready (closet). When viewing/examining the Enfield No. 2 MK I*, one notices the difference in craftsmanship and quality between our guns (S&W, Colt) and theirs. Sitting that aside, I love the British Enfield! Nostalgia rules with a tried and true veteran of WW2 for me. I know many wouldn't care for the light-hitting .38 S&W but, and a big but, most two-legged varmints won't take more than 1-hit from the British Enfield before moving, quickly, away from you and yours! Thank you my friends for your patience and kindness here!

David

The DAO trigger on mine takes a bit of getting used to, but I really enjoy shooting it. I wish someone loaded a good wad cutter for .38SW.

I was looking for an Enfield or Webley. Ended up with the Webley Mark III commercial/police (no lanyard ring), .38 S&W c.1927.
It is fun to shoot. I used the Remington ammo along with Privi Partisan. Now I just reload for it
It is a pop, pop, but I wouldn't want to catch them.
Some pics, guys.
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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

David, you know that pictures are always appreciated.

One of my first handguns when I was a teenager (my parents had to pick it up at the railway express office when it came in) was ordered from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. I think it cost about $16.00. It was a Webley No 4, if I remember correctly, and I still regret trading it off many years ago. Last year, in a fit of nostalgia, I bought a Webley from GunBroker, it was a post war model made for the Israelis, I believe, and is not quite the same as my old trusty sidekick from my youth!!! Oh, it shoots alright, but I think it has some sneaky "safety" mechanism incorporated in it somewhere. I don't have any photos right now, but will try to post some.

If I remember correctly, the enfield is DAO and the Webley is DA/SA. Webley designed the firearm, and submitted the design for approval to the government, and the rejected the design, made a few modifications, and then began to produce it with no recognition of Webley's original design!! I think (can't remember exactly) that Webley later sued, and received some royalties.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

The No. 2 MK I with selective DA trigger is better for aimed shots, as is the Webley MK IV .38. The Enfield with a DA-only trigger is hard to shoot well, and most have very heavy DA pulls.

My choice along these lines would be the Webley, but with a commercial blued finish; those marked War Finish are pretty rough.

Les-

Thanks for the Like.

BTW, you wrote earlier that the Webley was a "NO. 4." You may be thinking of the No. 4 .303 rifle! The Webley revolver was a MK IV .38 numbered in their commercial series, not the military series, in which the MK IV is a .455.

If I had the money, I'd be after the best Webley, in my view. That was the Wilkinson-Webley .455, Model 1911. It looks like the slightly later MK VI military model, but has a nice bright blue finish, hand-honed action, and walnut grips with a gold oval for the owner's initials. Model 1905 is almost identical, but the rifling varies. The Model WG, in several variations from 1889-at least 1896, is also a beautifully made gun, but the frame is longer than needed and the later guns are safer with smokeless ammo.

Dabney-

The Enfield .476 was not a top-break gun. It used a unique ejection system deigned by an American named Jones. The Enfield was not well liked, and was replaced after just seven or so years by the Webley MK I. The Enfields were sent to Canada, where the Mounties also disliked them.

Officers then bought their own swords and pistols, and I doubt that many preferred the Enfield. The .476 cartridge was pretty good at close ranges, a 265 grain or a 288 grain bullet at some 700 fps. Better than the later .455 MK II, but almost the same as the .455 MK I. The .455 Colt is basically the MK I.

Officers in the Second Zulu War of 1879 would probably have used Adams or Tranter arms, or Colts. The Enfield didn't even appear until about 1882-1883.

If you read, "King Solomon's Mines", by Sir Henry Rider Haggard, you'll see that he provided Colt SAA .45 revolvers for his heroes. That book was written in 1883, by a veteran of the Zulu war. In fact, his Kukuana fictional tribe had many resemblances to Zulu customs.

I've read that in the 1880s, the .44-40 and .45 Colt were so popular among officers that the British Army in India stocked ammo for both. Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, who later designed an automatic revolver for Webley, wrote that the .44-40 was the best handgun "stopper" that he saw in use along the NW Frontier of what is now Pakistan. But I don't know if he saw the .45 Colt results often.

When you remove the grip plates, do you see a small steel butt frame? I think they used the same frame for the pocket model as for those MK III .38's with longer barrels. That's probably just a full service size grip, not for target use.

But your gun is rare here, and I've never had the chance to
see one with the grips off.

How does your gun shoot? With the lighter bullets, it probably doesn't shoot to the sights, as it might with 200 grain loads like the old Super Police that Western once made here.

I will take some gripless pics & post.
It is stamped 38 not 38/200.
The seller called the grips target as well as folks on another forum.
Not much specific info on the Mark III.
I load 158 gr .358 SWC from Missouri Bullet with W231 or Titegroup.
Barrel slugs at .357 to the lands.
Groups well, but just a bit right.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

Texas Star:

You are absolutely right! I was wrong, it was a MK IV and not a No 4! By the way, I do still have another old Webley, a WWI era MK VI. It is in great shape, but unfortunately, someone "shaved" the back of the cylinder so that .45 ACP cartridges in moon clips can be used, or it can be loaded with .45 Auto Rims. Other than that, it has not been touched. I will try to get photos of both this and the MK IV soon and post them. I reload the Auto Rim for my Colt 1917, so that is what I use in the Webley. I load these at moderate velocities, so as not to strain the old girls.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les-

If it may make you feel better, there was a No. 4 Webley-Pryse .476. I think it was short-lived, as the Webley-Kaufman with the early stirrup lock arrived soon after and quickly became the normal system.

Darn Tex, you're right again.
I take the stocks off for cleaning, but was not sure until I took a specific look.
The OP and others need to post some pics.
Les, I wanted a MK VI too, but shaved cylinders seemed to be the norm.
[IMG][/IMG]

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

Texas, the Enfield MK I and II guns are hinged (break-top) revolvers, that is, the barrel assembly breaks for reloading, just like the break top Enfield/Webley shooters of WW2 fame. Please observe photos of these Enfield's for verification. You are right about the Zulu War, in regards to Tranter/Adams being packed in Zulu-land, and I thank you very much! From August 1880 thru January 1885, the Enfield .476 would engage in the following battles:
1-Battle of Kanahar (9-1-1880) Muslims in Egypt
2-Battle of Laing's Nek (1-28-1881) Boer S. Africa
3-Battle of Schuinshoogte (2-8-1881) Boer Conflict
4-Battle of Majuba Hill (2-27-81) Boer Conflict
5-Battle of Tel al-Kebir (1882) Muslim trouble
6-Battle of El Teb (2-4-1884) Muslim trouble
7-Battle of Tamai (3-13-1884) Muslim trouble
8-Battle of Khartoum (1-26-1885)

I'm sure I may have missed a battle during the time period of the Enfield .476 (1880-89), but you can see its baptism was in blood. Sure, some Brit officers did not care for the Enfield during that time, but this would be so later with the Webley offering and even later with the Enfield No. 2 MK I* guns of WW2. I would have preferred a Schofield or Colt SAA at that time too. Most did not, whether lack of personal funds or loyalty to a home built firearm. The Enfield MK I and II had a complicated action that required frequent manintenance, if used very much. The charge of Muslims at the Battle of Khartoum, I can visualize that Brit Officer, standing tall, in the face of the on-coming terror!

M1- I promise to post photos of my Enfield children ASAP. I'm just happy to find interested people at this great forum who would want to see pics of the Brit Enfield of WW 2 fame. Hopefully this evening, if my photographer (son, Colt) shows up, I'll get those photos out. And I thank everyone so very much cause I'm still a student of firearms history and love being corrected, when needed. Its the only way to grow in knowledge, to receive a rebuke and profit from it.

David

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Gents, here are my bonafides. Even threw in a couple of .380-200 Webley MK IV's to show the resemblance. All of these Enfield's are RSAF manufacture, dating from 1939 to 1945. I've never been able to capture an Albion Enfield or one of the rare Australian (HAC) Models. These war veterans were not as glamorous as our S&W or Colt revolvers of the same time period. I take great pride in our (USA) firearms manufacture might but still honor what our allies packed at the same time. I love shooting an Enfield with current ammo available. I procured a few rounds of surplus ammo a while back and used it for nice Sunday afternoons plinking. Wouldn't make a bad house gun, just get use to the unique action, DAO, that most No. 2's have. You may be a fortunate owner of an Enfield that never got the "FTR" business (Factory Through Repair DAO) and retains the single-action feature. These are older, pre-war samples that escaped the trip back to the factory for conversion. Thanks again!

David

The pics are certainly worth the wait. Great collection. Nicely photographed too. The kind of revolvers that got me looking and obtaining my one and only.
Thanks for the look, Dabney

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

David, Texas Star, M1A, and fellow forum members, I had to work today, but managed to get a quick shot of my Webley MK VI. You can probably see where they cut the cylinder serial number in half when they shaved the cylinder. I'm not complaining too much, as the ability to shoot .45 acp and .45 Auto Rim is not that bad. Back when they were doing this, these were probably a dime a dozen. I did some research, and if I remember correctly, the Webley cartridge was supposed to operate at a lower pressure. Since I reload, I have always shot mild loading a in this revolver in deference to her age and possible older metallurgical condition. It has a mirror bore, so I presume that if it was shot back in the old days with corrosive ammo, it was well taken care of.




David, I am happy to see your collection!!! Great stuff, and good photos also!!! If I were you, I would consider reloading for yours as well. I load for about 20 different cartridges, and once you have the equipment, you can avoid ammo shortages, and the lack of some of the more obscure cartridges in the retail marketplace. I use the Auto Rim cartridge in my Colt 1917 as well. The brass seems to last forever with the mild loads I use.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les-

Nice pic. One of those was my first handgun, when I was 13. My mother had to sign the paperwork, of course.

I only have two: a Webley Mk I, still in .455 caliber. I have two boxes of ammo (mostly fired cartridges now) and I reload for it. Great old Hand Cannon. Next a pre WWII Enfield MK II, which still has the single action capability. I's dated 1936. The holster is an early one, too. although there was a still earlier holster with a much longer drop down.

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I dug up my only other Webley, a MK IV of I believe recent vintage, and apparently imported from the Israelis. I photographed the two together, with some British issue ".380" (.38 S&W) ammo, and some .45 acp on half moon clips, along with some of my hand loads in .45 Auto Rim. This exhausts my Webley collection.



Thanks to all who posted photos here. You have all revived my interest in these cool revolvers. It's starting to look a little like spring around here, and that means that I can resume shooting in relative comfort in my backyard "range".

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Mr. Les, great looking Webley handguns you have sir. Many thanks for posting your Brit treasures so we could enjoy. I have always had a soft spot for these break-top revolvers of WW2 fame. I remember the tv character on "Magnum PI", Higgins, had a big-bore Webley Revolver he used for bad guys sometimes. I remember reading about his character on the show, a former Sgt.-Major in the British Army, turned private investigator as the background bio. Great show, with great guns on display.

The Enfield No. 2 MK I* has a small background in several movies and a few tv programs from past days. I remember seeing one used as a murder weapon in the 1980's tv program of "Columbo" with Robert Vaughn playing the bad guy part and using the Enfield to commit mayhem. The Enfield had a larger role in the first 1965 movie, "Flight of the Phoenix", starring James Stewart, who used it to put a "lame" camel out of misery. The Enfield is a British made firearm, that was used against a mighty adversary in WW2, the German soldier. Used by many former colonial home defense forces after the war, even up to the 70's, I've read. The ,380 Webley MK IV has its own great historical background and was still being manufactured up unto recent times. Several years ago, I purchased the "book" on the .380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver by Mark Stamps and Ian Skennerton. This book would enlightened me considerably on this firearm of great interest to me. The ins and outs of manufacture, names, places, any and all data of interest to the Enfield enthusiast, is covered in this book. Still available on Amazon for anyone interested in Enfields. Plinking away on those lazy Sunday afternoons after Church is wonderful "tonic" for relaxation for myself. The gun has so much history to it and, as mentioned before, doesn't make a bad house gun for no good two-legged varmints, up to bad-doing! I'm so thankful to find friends of the Enfield here at this forum.

David

David:

I have to admit that my collection of Webley's is limited to the two you see here, but as I said in post #4 above, an earlier Webley MK IV was one of my first handguns when I was very young. Seeing the posts of you and Texas Star, M1A, Cyrano and others has awakened my interest. I think that I will get that book that you mentioned, and read up a little on these most interesting British firearms. When I was a kid, I read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories, and was always fascinated by the Victorian era, Scotland Yard, and so forth. As an adult I traveled to (among many countries) England, where I obtained a graduate degree at Leicester University. One of my classmates was a senior officer at the London Metropolitan Police ... Scotland Yard, and I have had the great opportunity to vist there and dine in Peeler's Lounge, and tour the Black Museum. I am still very much interested in English history, and these firearms evoke images of past British glory. Thanks again for starting this thread... I hope that it stays alive for awhile, and others share some of their Enfields and Webley's with us.

Regards...Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

The Webley MkIII 38 was originaly considered for Brit military use as a possible replacement for the .455 Webley MkVI.
The Commission looking for a replacement in the years after WW1 liked the light weight MkIII and being from the favored Webley company, it was not much of a battle for first place.
Some design details were recommended to the MkIII before acceptance.

What the Brit Gov't did then was to take Webleys MkIII and the design changes and give them to their RSAF Enfield facility.
There they came up with their 'own design' for an issue 38cal sidearm,,the 'Enfield No2MkI' ,obviously heavily based on Webleys guns and designs.
The 'Enfield No2MkI was accepted by the Gov't.
Webley cried foul.
War broke out and the Gov't needed more handguns than they themselves could mfgr. So they let out contracts to Webley for their '38cal MkIV' revolver,, the almost was standard issue revolver.
The Webley MkIV38 became secondardy issue but great numbers were made.
Webley marked (most of their) MkIV 38 revolvers made during WW2 as 'War Finish'. A proud company,,as if to say we can and do much better than this.

Webley had a lawsuit against the gov't over the whole 'you stole our idea' thing. It was settled some years later with a payment made to the Webley company IIRC.

Thank you 2152. I will add that info to my binder. I get a bit here a sentence there. Never found any lengthy discussion of the Mark III, but it all adds up.
I may have enough to write my own paragraph.
Great thread.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

In years gone by, I was the Chief of Police in a small mill town here in Georgia. This would be the high point of my LE career, in those days in Bibb City. This town was composed mainly of mill workers and their families. I was honored to serve those wonderful people as their Chief, and would spend the best years of my life as their servant. This small, quaint city was very similar to the make-believe town of Mayberry on the "Andy Griffin Show" that still airs. There was an elderly, retired mill hand who lived there, that was also a WW2 vet. This gentleman was part of a community of people that loved this nation and championed the "American Way" every day that they lived. I come to tears remembering those God-fearing, Christ-loving people. Many had come from outside the immediate area, around Dothan, Eufaula, Auburn, and Pittsview Alabama during the "depression" of the 1930's. Many of the citizens that composed Bibb City were elderly and had already retired. This was during the early 1980's, and the gent mentioned earlier, and I, became good friends during my tenure there. He protected his home with but two firearms, an M-1 Carbine, manufactured by Winchester, and a British Enfield No. 2 MK I* Model. Being a WW2 vet, he had a warm spot for both of his guns, He had packed the M-1 during the War, and was given this Enfield .380 by a British Officer. A man that he soldiered along side while stationed in England and became close friends with. My friend told me that he had managed to get this Enfield back home in stealth. It was a "special" firearm near and dear to him in many ways. I would sometimes go to his house and pick him and his Enfield up, together, in the squad car, we all went to the river bank (Chattahoochee) and cap off a few rounds with that break-top Brit for a little plinking fun down on the river. I let him shoot my Colt Official Police (duty arm) and I got to shoot his treasure. This is where my love for the Enfield first developed. Each time I get my Enfields out for cleaning, I think of my elderly friend from a special time period in my life. All I can say about this is, What a man! What a gun! No longer present in this world, but always residing within my heart. My "special" Enfield story and I hope you enjoyed it.

David

Wow, David, that is a great story, and the sort of story that was probably once much more common than today. I remember my dad telling me, when I was just a youngster, that the world was "going to **** in a handbasket ". Although I would dearly love to have him back with me today, (he passed in 1972), I don't know what he would make of our society that has evolved in the 44 years since I lost him. Stories like that, and men like you and your friend are becoming rarer every day.

Thanks again for sharing, and I hope that others share stories and photos of their Enfields and Webleys with us.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Some minor points...

First, it was the improved MK IV .38 that Webley submitted to the govt. , not the MK III from which the new gun was developed.

Next, a post above said that Kandahar is in Egypt. It's in Afghanistan, and is in fact where Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC earned his Victoria Cross for gallantry.

I am a little puzzled at the flat military finish on Les's MK. IV .38 with four-inch barrel. Usually, guns with that barrel length with that late hammer, have the normal commercial blue finish. If this is an Israeli gun, maybe they specified that finish or it may be refinished. Note that some postwar MK IV .38's for the Singapore police were fitted with a crossbolt safety.

Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's.

I like Webley and the firm had a rich history. I think their last revolvers were made for Navy Arms about 1975. They came in a distinctive box. Shotgun production may have continued longer.

That would be the MkIII with the 'requested design changes'.

Per Stamps/Skennerton Book on the ".380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver" on page 9 (paperback edition):

"WEBLEY & SCOTT SUBMITTED A SAMPLE .38 REVOLVER TO THE WAR OFFICE ON JULY 19, 1921, ALONG WITH 200-ROUNDS OF .38 S&W AMMUNITION; IT WAS A (MODIFIED) MARK III HINGED FRAME, SELF EJECTING POCKET MODEL.....

This was the first submission and a few months later W&S would submit the "new" MK IV Model. From the above book on the same page number;

A FURTHER SAMPLE, A NEW MARK IV MODEL OF THE WEBLEY .38 REVOLVER, WAS FORWARDED IN JANUARY 1922 AND TESTS WERE PERFORMED AT THE SMALL ARMS SCHOOL, HYTHE.

The MK III .380 Webley, with some unidentified mods, went first followed closely by the MK IV. From Stamps/Skennerton the Enfield No. 2 .380 was most definitely influenced by the MK IV Webley Model. Later, as pointed out by post author, a court of British Law ruled in favor of W&S and a small award was rendered to W&S. For me, as a collector of both Brit firearms, the history is very interesting. So is my friends posts here on this highly favored British revolver. Each time someone posts on this subject matter, I profit in knowledge greatly. Thanks to all!

David

[QUOTE=Texas Star;139045652]Some minor points...

Snipped!
"Finally, I really, really wish that anyone interested in this subject or in handguns in general, would buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, about 1970. It'll probably be the best investment that you ever make in a book on handgun history. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns", revised 1961 edition, should be your second gun book, before you buy specialized books on S&W's."

From me.
Mr Boothroyd (if I'm not mistaken) was an advisor to Ian Flemming for firearms knowledge. In "From Russia With Love" the armorer who provided the Walther PPK to replace "that Damned Beretta" was identified as Boothroyd. In subsequent movies the more familliar "Q" character appeared.

Thread Drift..Sorry.

[quote=Andrew2105;139046683]I have a great Biography of Fleming...just don't have it with me now. I believe that you are correct about the Boothroyd in the James Bond book "armorer" being based on the real Boothroyd. I seem to remember that Boothroyd, who was a real expert on firearms, was an admirer of the first Bond books, but was appalled that Fleming had Bond armed with a .25 automatic. He contacted Fleming and the two corresponded and may have met in person. Fleming was so impressed by Boothroyd, that he incorporated him into... and this is where I think you may be wrong... I believe the sixth Bond book, which was Dr. No, if I remember correctly. The scene is then fairly accurately incorporated into the movie Dr. No. Boothroyd, in the book issues both the famous Walther PPK, but the Smith and Wesson Centennial AirWeight, .38 S&W Special. It was only used in this one movie, and was lost on Crab Key, never to appear again. I think the book came out about 1958.

Here is Bond getting his Walther in Dr. No:


And here's the real Boothroyd in a cool video:


I echo the previous posters apologies to the OP for thread drift.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

[quote=Andrew2105;139046683]Andrew, it sounds like the Boothroyd book, from your persuasive post, is a book I need terribly. I assume it covers the Enfield/Webley .380 of these posts here, as well as the earlier models. A preliminary check of ebay seems to have turned up a few. Thanks so much for your info on this book.

David

David,

I don't know if you had time yet, but the second video I posted above has an interview and demonstration by the real Geoffrey Boothroyd, author of the book you are inquiring about, and introduced by Sean Connery, who most guys our age identify as James Bond. I think you'll like it, it was made way back when...

Regards,

Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

BTW "The Handgun" is available at Amazon & the library.

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"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

I think there is a certain nostalgia attached to all the Webley and Enfield variations. I know there is for me,especially the Webleys. About 20 or so years ago I got to shoot a good friend's 1918 .455 Webley MK VI. It was cut for 45 ACP and he used light reloads with lead bullets. My old and dear friend died last year and I had the opportunity to purchase his old Webley from the estate. I have loaded some light ACP and Auto Rim ammunition for the old gun using lead bullets. Shoots as well as it ever did.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Andrew-

You missed the book mentioning the PPK's arrival. It was in, "Dr. No", which appeared in 1958, and was the first 007 book I read.

It was in, "From Russia, With Love" that Bond's Beretta .25 with silencer in place, hung up on his holster or waistband and let Col. Rosa Klebb, KGB agent, kick him with the concealed blade in her shoe. The blade was poisoned with fugu venom, from a blowfish, and Bond nearly died. He was saved by his French colleague, Rene Mathis.

I urge everyone to hit the link that Geoff provided and watch that BBC film featuring the real Geoffrey Boothroyd. But the film does NOT show the right Beretta in .25. It shows a M-1934 or 35 .32 or .380. That was also the case in the movie version of, "Dr. No." I guess the prop dept. didn't know Berettas well, or one in .25 was hard to find in the gun-phobic UK. I doubt if Sean Connery knows handguns very well at all.

BTW, "Fleming" is spelled that way, with just one "M".

Surely, you can locate copies of both Bond books mentioned and see where the gun issue was discussed.

Also, see the Mar. 19, 1962 issue of, "Sports Ill." for an article on the Bond guns, by the real Boothroyd. I may have the date off a little. Check all March and April issues of that year. That magazine is basically anti-gun, but evidently the Bond phenomenon surpassed that bias.

Boothroyd also discussed Bond guns in the US title, "Guns", but I don't recall the issue.

In the film link above, note how many personal guns Boothroyd owned. Until the recent (1997) law, many Britons owned quite a few guns. "Life" featured Ian Fleming and his books in the early 1960's, and the pictures showed Fleming with a couple of his own. Two more were seen in author photos on his books.

BTW, I have a letter from the real Boothroyd. It's on stationery from the set of, "Dr. No." I'm glad that I saved it. I was a Bond fan even in my teens and was delighted to see the first Bond film. But had no idea then what a massive success that franchise would become.

Mr. Les;
Thanks so much for those two video links to an "icon" like James Bond. The Boothroyd video was especially interesting.

Andrew, I ordered the Boothroyd book off ebay. I look forward to its arrival. Thanks again sir!,

These British firearms we are discussing are from a by-gone era that, sadly for me, has been placed into the pages of history. Their memories are made manifest within our Enfield/Webley relics from the past, that still operate just fine. Hardy, stout British craftsmanship. Thanks all for the wonderful posts.

David

In studying the .380 Enfield Revolver over a period of time, it would seem that the Enfield/Webley .380-200 Revolvers has traveled to some very far reaches of the world in serving the Queen's interests. I remember seeing photos of the Enfield in the black leather holsters of the Royal Hong Kong Police in early post war times. On a Fox News report a few years ago I saw an Iraqi citizen parading around the streets of a major city there. He was shooting an Enfield Revolver in the air, celebrating some kind of calamity there. Normally I don't give notice to Iraqi anything, but that Enfield caught my eye. On a lighter/better note, I recently viewed the 1965 movie, "Flight of the Phoenix", starring Jimmy Stewart. An Enfield No. 2 MK I* played a small part in it. The recent 2005 remake of "Flight of the Phoenix" has a Webley MK IV .380 starring in it. I enjoyed both movies but much prefer the older because of Stewart. Quaid is okay, but not a Jimmy Stewart. Great movies none-the-less and good to watch on Saturday afternoons, like today. Take care my friends. Your posts are awesome to the subject matter!

David

Dabney-

That suggestion to buy Boothroyd's, The Handgun came from me. I don't think Andrew has ever seen a copy. He was quoting from one of my posts. I've been preaching here about that book and Keith's, Sixguns for years. I'm always glad when someone orders a copy. I think it's out of print, but has never been widely publicized in the USA and prices are not high. It's about the size of many phone books, so don't drop it on your toes! I think you'll be astounded at the range of content and the excellence of that coverage.

You can see an Enfield .38 in, The Purple Plain with Gregory Peck and in ,The Guns of Navarone, carried by David Niven. Amusingly, Niven played a corporal. In real life, the actor became a Lt. Col. or a full Colonel; I forget which. Before he became an actor, he was a British officer and was recalled to duty for WWII. In his autobiography he referred to his revolver as a Webley. Probably a MK VI, as he owned it before the war. Issue of the then-new Enfield seems to have begun by 1931, perhaps earlier. It was adopted in 1927, but replacement was gradual and not all those equipped with revolvers had the .38 by 1939. BTW, Anthony Quinn also had an Enfield .38 in that film, holding it ready behind a newspaper as he met a guest who might be a German agent. The guns in the film are not the same as in the book, which I think was written by Alistair MacLean. Oddly, the book mentioned just one Colt. It would have been a .45 auto, but British special ops personnel usually carried that arm, and not just one per party. If you see, The Guns of Navarone, look for the Mauser .32 in the hand of one German officer. Because his hand hides the handle, I can't say if it was the M-1914 or the later M-1934. The latter has a more curved rear part of the handle.

This film is on DVD and is one of the very best of all WWII movies. I recall seeing it in the theater when it was released. Yeah, I was interested in this stuff at an early age.

I've seen photos of tank crews with the new .38's in the mid 1930's and in the film, Drums, you can also see the Pattern 37 webbing holsters. Pretty odd, as that movie appeared that year, I think, and was set in India. Maybe there was already a very similar holster in use?

I have long been interested in the British military in the 20th Century, when they still held much of their wide Empire. I look for mentions of both rifles and handguns in books, and for photos in magazines like, Life and National Geographic. Those are, of course, also very useful for those of you interested in the S&W Victory Model .38's.

A cover of Newsweek (?) showed the late King Hussein of Jordan wearing an S&W M-19 in an open-top webbing holster of the sort used by tankers for the Enfield .38. The color of the Goncalo alves stocks was pretty... well, pretty! The year was roughly 1970.

If you can find books like, Man-Hunt in Kenya, you'll learn about the early Patchett (later Sterling) SMG's and Browning Hi-Powers used in the battle to contain Mau-Mau terrorists. The paperback I have shows detailed drawings of those. The author was Inspector Ian Henderson, GM. He received the George Medal for his gallantry in working with converted Mau-Mau gang members and turning them against other terrorists. His forces captured the infamous Dedan Kimathi, a murderer many times over, often of his fellow terrorists if he felt they were disloyal.

Sometimes, the make of revolver isn't mentioned, as with, The Brazen Chariots by Major Robert Crisp, DSO, MC, etc. Crisp was a South African cricket star before WWII, in which he served in the Royal Tank Regiment in North Africa and later in Europe, after a lengthy convalescence following severe wounds. It was Crisp who named the US M-3 Stuart tank as the Honey in Commonwealth service. He took one for a test drive and was asked his opinion. "It's a honey!" he exclaimed, and the name stuck. But he just referred to his revolver as a .38. No brand name or model.

On the other hand, Lt. Ian MacHorton named his Colt .38, which he carried with a Thompson SMG in Burma. Look for his, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton" to read about his ordeal as he escaped the Japanese to return to India.

Texas, my apologies sir. I thank "you" very much sir! Is the Enfield/Webley .380's covered with detail in the Boothroyd book?

David

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The photos show a 1945 production Enfield. This particular model was purchased at a gun show last year for 300-dollars. The only reason I mentioned the price was to show the value climb of good condition Enfields. The first one I purchased (1980's) was under 100-dollars. Also interesting is the black paint , used at RSAF, for finish purposes. This Enfield has pristine grips and the appearance of lightly used (shot), if at all. My camera doesn't do justice to this British firearm. I do love the Enfield! I own one Brit canvas flap holster with the belt. These are affordable for me. The Enfield served many years after the war, a testament to their rugged durability. It would not surprise me to find out that a few may still be serving in former colonial interests of the Queen. The Enfield resonates with an exotic background in Middle Eastern quarters. The post war nights of British Officers finding the right bar, with the right belly dancer, and still in uniform with "trusty" Enfield in holster on hip. Didn't wanna be unarmed, surrounded by hostile Arabs, ungrateful at being a British colony. The Enfield did much and saw much! Thanks again Texas, Les, and other Enfield friends here!

David

David-

The Enfield is certainly covered in that book, but you may be unhappy that Boothroyd said the S&W was much preferred by most troops who had the choice. The hard trigger pull of the Enfield was part of the problem, if not most. But most of the Enfields after 1938 had the DA-only trigger pull, just adding to the problem.

The DA-only trigger was due to complaints by tank crews that the hammer spur caught on things in the tanks. Instead of simply making the holsters deeper to hide the spur, they decided to eliminate the hammers!

The old claim in US ads that these were guns designed for speed shooting by elite Commando units is just hogwash. In fact, those units tended to issue Colt .45 autos and S&W .38's, or later, 9mm Brownings made in Canada. Some had "odder" guns, like Lt. MacHorton's Colt Official Police or Commando model .38. He was part of a special force designed to penerate behind Japanese lines and study the enemy and how small units could harass them.

You'll find that the Boothroyd book doesn't miss many handguns of any fame at all. By contrast, Elmer Keith wrote almost exclusively about US guns. But he covered that aspect so well that his, Sixguns is a virtual must for gun enthusiasts. His comments on ammunition, inc. handloads, is classic. About 70% of the pistol questions asked on gun boards can be answered by one or the other of those books. Both are dated, the revised Keith book dating from 1961. But they contain the basic handgun knowledge so vital to the beginner and the journeyman gun enthusiast.

Texas, thanks for the info. In the Stamps/Skennerton book that was mentioned regarding some Brits seeking our S&W or Colt OP to replace their Enfield. I will quote a short few sentences from the book on this;

MANY DISCRIMINATING SOLDIERS READILY ABANDONED THE DAO ENFIELD FOR COMMERCIAL QUALITY SMITH & WESSON OR COLT REVOLVERS AT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY. ALTHOUGH SUCH REVOLVERS MAY HAVE BEEN FINER HANDGUNS THAN THE ENFIELD, WITH MORE DELICATE MECHANICAL FEATURES, IT WAS THE NATURE AND RELIABILITY OF THE ENFIELD WHICH WON THE HARD-EARNED RESPECT OF THE COMBAT SOLDIER TO WHOM DEPENDABILITY AND EASE OF MAINTENANCE REMAINED THE CRITERIA BY WHICH MANY SMALL ARMS WERE JUDGED.

Texas, even today, in the recent Desert Storm War, we had some of our US Military opting for 1911 .45's over the Beretta 92 9mm Pistol. If given the choice, during WW2, I too would have went for the S&W or Colt offerings over the Enfield. That being said, the DAO Enfield did serve with great honor and distinction in the War and for years after. Thanks again my friend for your thoughtful post. As always, appreciated so very much!

David

Texas Star:

Well, I'm following your advise yet again: just ordered a copy of Boothroyd's book. I'm not sure if you're familiar with "Abebooks", but I use them all the time to order books that are out of print. They are a consortium of independent booksellers from all over the world, so when you search for say Boothroyd, then you get all the books he has written and who all has them, and sorts them by price, and any other way you would like. I just ordered one at a very reasonable price, and am looking forward to getting it. I have had a copy of "Sixguns" for many years, and enjoy it immensely. I am also going to order a copy of the book that David recommended on Enfields, and another that I discovered on Webleys.

I only have the two handguns that I posted above, but you fellows have piqued my interest in learning more. I have been doing a lot of reading about WW II personalities, just finished the three volume Biography on Bernard Montgomery, and a number of other folks of that era, so I'm in the mood to read about some of the arms of the day as well.

I'll let you know when I get my copy, and have a chance to read it a little. I thought you might enjoy that film clip of Boothroyd with some of his firearms, can you imagine him in the U. K. With that setup today? It reminds me a little of Justice Scalia's story of traveling from Brooklyn to Manhattan on the subway with his rifle when he was in school and on the shooting team. Times sure change!

Best regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

David-

I know that. Not only do I read extensively in that area, my son was among those lucky enough to use both Colt .45 auto and Beretta 9 mm's in Iraq. He killed some insurgents with both, and found the .45 a little more effective with a single hit, but the 9mm was quite effective, if well placed. He also used a 9mm Browning MK III after leaving the Army and returning as a security contractor. He actually had some of his worst firefights in that capacity.

Some SpecOps units still use the .45 auto ,like USMC Force Recon units. Delta Force may also have some. Colt has recently made up new modified .45's for the Marines. I think they also sell those on the commercial market. At last report, Delta Force "operators" were supplied with two heavily customized .45's, in case one was in need of maintainance when required for a mission.

I think those guys kill quite a few Jihadists without it ever making the news.

In the 1950s, a friend lived in Cambridge, MA with his widowed mother in a huge, three story house with a basement. They rented the top floor to graduate students at Harvard, but still the two of them rattled around in the big house. It was probably one of the safest places in the country, but she became frightened and asked him for a pistol for her bedside. He produced an Enfield Mk II*, and after emtying it, had her try it to see if she could manage the DAO pull. She could. He loaded it put it on her bedside table, and gave her the most precise instructions I've ever heard; "If you have to use it, pick up the pistol, point it at him and pull the trigger.

Les-

You may also want to Seach for books by John Masters, DSO.
Prewar India was covered in, "Bugles and a Tiger" and WWII was in, "The Road Past Mandalay".

After the war, Masters moved to the USA and became a bestselling author. But I think his best books are these, about his time as an officer in the 4th Ghurka Rifles, The Prince of Wales's Own. He reached the rank of Brevet Brigadier, and retired as a Lt. Col. He received the Distinguished Service Order (one step beneath the Victoria Cross) for his command of an outpost in Burma that was besieged by the Japanese.

A graduate of Sandhurst, he was an articulate author. He was also a talented artist, as shown by his sketches in the first book. The second is ill. with photos.

Texas, I also appreciate the MK IV Webley .380 very much and own two of the War Models. I have never come across a book, written specifically on this great firearm. The internet search engines are of no help. I already own the Osprey paperback book on the Webley Revolver that gives a little background on the WW2 Webley but not a lot. Do you know of a book on the MK IV specifically? If not, maybe we, with much help from our friends here could make-that-happen. What say you, fine sir?

David

David-

I know of no such book. I once saw a copy of, "The Webley Story", by Wm. Chipchase Dowell, but couldn't afford it then. It's hard to find in the USA. Probably Amazon or Abe books can get it. That's your best bet.

However, Boothroyd gave the MK IV pretty good coverage. If you buy that book, I think you're going to be amazed at the depth and scope of its coverage. For me to recommend something, it has to be good.

You forgot to mention the advantages the Enfield has over the MK IV Webley. The Enfield has a solid frame with an integral trigger guard. The Webley has a screw-on trigger guard, as with most Webleys. The rear of the trigger guard on the MK VI bears uncomfortably on my finger, so I prefer the Enfield in that regard.

Also, if memory serves, the Enfield has a removable sideplate, like a Colt or S&W. These were the changes made by the Army designer, partly in hopes, no doubt, of evading Webley 's patent. But they also made a better designed gun.

Enfields made prior to 1940 and many even after, are well made guns with good, if dull, finishes. The commercial Webley, with a nice blue finish, is a finer made gun, with domed screws, maybe. ?? Been awhile since I saw one. The flathead screws of the Enfield are less attractive, but it was designed to be a military weapon, and the culture was not very pro-gun, even then. Look at the checkering on the prewar Enfield grips and compare that to the checkering on Colt or S&W arms. Boothroyd told me in a letter years ago that the Enfield was a sound military weapon, but not as desirable to the serious gun enthusiast as were its rivals. And he agreed that it was underpowered, which carried over to Colt and S&W .38's chambered for the official .38/200 ctg., of course.

Winston Churchill was pretty gun savvy. I've seen pics of his own guns. When he formed the Commando regiments in 1940, he insisted that their primary sidearm be the Colt .45 auto, a gun that he himself owned and sometimes carried in the war , under his suit coat. He also tried to get his police bodyguard to carry one, but that man thought it was too big and heavy and preferred a Webley .32 auto, the usual cop gun then. Those .45's were NOT then Lend-Lease guns. Britain bought them from Colt. The Lend-Lease examples came later in the war.

If the Prime Minister didn't trust the low powered .38, neither did many soldiers, and they made every effort to get something better. I know of one RAF ace who wangled a Beretta .32 and another bummed a Luger from a friend who was an Intelligence officer, with access to pistols taken from downed German aircrews. He was eventually shot down over German-occupied Denmark and the Germans who captured him were not pleased to find the P-08 on him...

Texas Star:

You guys are a bad influence on me!!! Not so bad convincing me to buy books and DVDs, but now I want to get my hands on a nice Enfield, as well. I'll try to suppress the urge, but it would make a nice comparison, since I already have a couple of Webleys. Anyway, thanks for the education I'm getting about these neat revolvers. Boy, I wish that I'd kept that first one from my teens. It was one of the older ones from the forties, I presume. Oh, well, live and learn. I have been enjoying all the lore that you and David, and Cyrano and all the other posters have been putting up. I have a DVD of "The Guns of Navarone" somewhere, and I'm going to have to dig it up and watch it.

Best regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Texas, I too looked real hard at the book, "The Webley Story" and found the price tag beyond my reach. Would love to own it though and continue my education on this great firearm. The price tag is just too high for a book. A great book I'm sure, but a book.

Les, gunbroker has Enfields and Webleys and from time to time and good prices (from time to time). I've never went down that path before as in earlier times my Dad had an FFL and I took advantage and was able to pick up two of those pictured Enfields that way. I'm like you Les, the posts here has rekindled my appetite for the Enfield/Webley greats.

It is great to find friends of the Enfield residing here.

David