Can't disagree with any of that. It is a good round which serves a purpose. I do think that the round is still pretty hard on the gun but I agree not as bad as shooting +p+ 9mm but I personally believe that is not necessary. These days for civilian usage a lot of the standard pressure 9mm will get the job done.

For LEO usage the parameters are different which is why I believe some agencies have chosen it. I just disagree that the Sig line was "designed" to shoot the .357 Sig and that the .357 Sig round is best shot out of a Sig.

Nope. The 229 was designed to handle the 40. The only other solution was to make such a stiff recoil spring for the 228 that it wouldn't be practical. The 229 was introduced in 1992 and Sig was one of the last manufacturers to add a 40s&w. The 357sig caliber was introduced in 1994 and Sig just added the 9mm barrel option to the 40s&w 229 to make it a 357sig

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This is not true your timeline is wrong. SIGARMS who later became Sig Sauer, Inc started production of the P229 in 40 S&W in 1992 when they moved to Exter, NH.

Again IIRC the .357 Sig was designed and introduced in 1994.

Arik beat me to it.

IIRC the 229 has a solid billet milled slide vs the 228 folded slide......giving the 229 a heavier slide.

I think the 228/229 frames are the same.....I could be wrong..... it happened once before!!!!

They are have always been slightly different but the mags worked in both guns initially. Currently mags no longer interchange. The changeover date was somewhere around 2010. They started to use the 40 S&W/.357 Sig frame for 9mms around that time so they no longer will work with P228 mags.

So you are right and wrong at the same time. LOL Schrodinger's Cat the pistol mag version.

You'd be surprised how many ranges have them for rent. I know when I was young, dumb, stupid 12 years ago, I was a "Glock-only" fanboy until a nice guy at Cabela's pulled a P226 out of the case (brand new, basic alloy model $700), field stripped it, and showed me how beefy and well built it was, I was almost sold. Until then, I didn't even bother to look at it in a case because it couldn't be as good as a Glock.

Once I found one to rent at range, I was sold.

Oh, I'd love to try one. Certainly none at my favorite/closest range but I'll keep an eye out. I owe a visit to a couple places (part of my endless search for pre-ban 5900-series magazines) and who knows? If I ever find one, I'll surely take the opportunity to try it.

I think the jist of what James is saying is that since Sig designed the .357 Sig round along with Federal, and hence did a tremendous amount of in-house testing with it before release, they had the inside track on designing guns for that round and have a deeper well on their intellectual database regarding it. I don't doubt that's true.

Today, after 22 years of it being on the market, I'm sure other manufacturers understand it pretty darn well also, but since it wasn't initially a caliber designed around thier own guns, they probably didn't do near the R&D that Sig did. I agree that Sig realized if a P229 or P226 with a stailness slide could handle a hot .40, it could with a few tweaks handle the hot .357 Sig. I don't think other makes are unsafe, I just think with Sig's name on it they may care a bit more about it working right and having longevity.

Personally, having shot the .357 Sig through Glocks, I would prefer to have a Sig when firing off that round, which may be the second point James was making. Frankly, I think the round is simply too much for any polymer striker fired platform because I just don't think they have the robust nature of a metal framed pistol. In 22 years of being an LEO Firearms Instructor, 99% of all "kB!'s" I've seen are polymer striker fired pistols (mainly Glocks) shooting either .40's, hot .45's or .357 Sig's. And when a polymer bodied striker fired does go BOOM, it goes right through the body of the pistol, which includes the portion serving as a grip, and into the shooter's hand.

The only Sig I've seen go kB! (and a Springfield 1911A1 10mm shooting hot loads) all blew the mag out and simply cracked the wooden grips or G10 Hogues. So yeah, I'm kind of with James that if you're going to shoot .357 Sig, you might be better off with a metal gun like a Sig that, due to the weight, can eat the recoil pretty easy, won't get battered and won't de-finger you if it goes go pop.

As far as performance, I understand the new FBI protocol and why many folks believe modern 9mm's are the equal of .40's and .357's. I simply think they're wrong because their manner of scoring is overweighted in bias for penetration, creating what I believe is unecessary penetration. I've shot the "new' style rounds against the older ones (.357 Sig, .357 Mag, hot lightweight 9mm) against steel and into meat, and despite what a certain overwrought, overfunded, overtly political, unaccountable federal bureaucracy says, transferring huge amounts of energy into a potentially murderous human is critical, and penetration is secondary. The old phrases of 'energy dump' and 'energy transfer' may be semantically incorrect but the concept of using more energy dynamically through faster, lighter rounds is no theory...it's been done for over 50 years on the streets with the aforementioned rounds and I simply do not believe that the Feds and Hornady have successfully repealed the laws of physics.

My agency is going to the Critical Defense 135 gr 9mm (simply because the FBI says the 9mm is now 'best'), but it'll take a lot of street results before I carry that round in lieu of the .357 Sig, which has been stellar in belt-buckle to belt-buckle incidents with our Troopers. Yeah, folks think it was designed with car doors and windshields in mind, but it has worked remarkably well in person to person calls, also.

It's a great concept and still valid today. What is interesting is that my agency, for probably a year or two, will have both on the street, so in essence they will be measured against each other in real time. Perhaps a 9mm can be designed that can replicate the .357 Sig's performance, or even exceed it, but for today and until a lot of supporting real world data comes in, I'm sticking with those proved Gold Dots.

As a Sig P series fan (239, 226, 220, & others) I believe they have already peaked. When a company begins to cut corners,& make an inferior product, to compete with the lower cost market, they have begun the downward spiral. IMO Sig never came close to reaching the heights of S&W revolvers, semi's, closer.

All of your points are valid and well thought out. I cannot argue with your real world usage of the .357 Sig and it seems you fully understand why it is the right choice for you. I guess I differ from James and maybe you in that I do not believe it is the right choice in a universal sense. It certainly was not the right choice for me. I prefer 9mm and 45 ACP. IMHO there is no perfect round, gun or bullet that is the right choice for everyone.

I also agree that there are ballistic differences in 9mm +P and .357 Sig. I don't think I did and did not intend to say that they are equal. What I did say is that 9mm JHP of today are superior to the 9mm JHPs of 1994 especially at higher weights like 124gr and 147gr. They behave a lot like older 40 S&W rounds and have closed the gap enough that lots of LEOs are going back to 9mm which apparently your department is also doing. For me I shot .357 Sig just ok. I shot it better that 40 S&W but not as good as 9mm. So for me .357 Sig was not worth the trade offs like the cost and availability of ammo. The extra wear and tear on the gun. The higher cost of initial ownership etc... I tried to love it but simply didn't. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree that the kaboom issue with polymer pistols is a greater danger than in alloy guns like the P229/P226 but that is not the way I read James post. It seems like he was talking more about shootability then safety when he talked about the Sig being the perfect platform for the .357 Sig and that the .357 Sig is the perfect round for P series Sigs.

Also I believe that the .357 round was developed by Sig and Federal with the existing P series platforms in mind using the 40 S&W models as the foundation. In the end they are basically the same guns which is why the mags interchange and you can buy a replacement barrel drop it in and have a 2 caliber gun. IMHO they built the round to fit into the existing platform they did not build the platform around the .357 Sig round as James alluded to.

Its a good thing you were here to tell us what James meant to say because I clearly misunderstood him. He clearly likes the .357 Sig round which is great. He just did not use accurate information to justify his love. His timeline of development of the various P series guns and the development of the .357 Sig round was off. In the end the Sig P series might be the best platform for the .357 Sig round but it does not mean the P series was built and developed for it. In the end it does not matter if he likes it and clearly he does he should shoot it to his hearts content!

I tend to agree with this. I do believe that Sig DA/SA guns were better than Gen 3 S&Ws but it is a matter of subjective personal preference.

I agree with Arik on this. In my uneducated opinion, Sig is like S&W during the 3rd generation, in that they make a lot of different metal-frame pistols, basically one for every size and caliber.

And unfortunately, like 3rd Gen S&W, I don't expect to see this continue very long. Most of the new contracts are now going to be the 320, polymer frame pistols. If/when the US moves away from the M9 and M11, I think Sig and Beretta will phase out their "classic" lines, and pull a S&W (the 320 etc will be the Sig version of the M&P).
A mildly troubling hint is that Sig has a 1911 in the mix. If you look, the 1911 is the only metal-frame centerfire pistol that S&W and Ruger now make; it wouldn't surprise me to see Sig follow that plan too.

I think they will scale them back but they have too much invested in the new manufacturing facility to scrap them entirely. I mean the just brought back the P225 sort of. The new P225A1 is sort of a frankengun. It is a mix of P239 parts and re-engineered P225 parts.

I think you will see less models being offered within each pistol line. For example they will not keep 21 models of the P226 which is what is currently on the website and that does not even include the Legion pistols.

I think they will go back to the standard P series stock guns and then the Legion series where you will see more and more production line custom type guns which have real functional differences from the standard instead of just cosmetic differences like it is now. I mean who really needs a P226 with tribal flash.

I would also like to see them do more work out of the custom shop. Allow dealers to place custom orders using Legion pistols as base guns. As I said I think they are headed in two different directions.

The P320 will become the meat and potatoes and the Legion pistols will become the high end. The classic P series will just be filler but they are not ready to go the way of the dodo yet.

I hope you're right. I think S&W over-compensated when they dropped the entire 39/59 lineup, they "should" have kept a base model for the non-1911 enthusiast. Probably a 59 series (fullsize double stack) available in 9 and 40, and let everything else go polymer.

Is the Legion series more of a Custom Shop equivalent, or more of a TSW equivalent?

Agreed!

Again, agreed!

That's where I tend to agree with him. The heavier slide and metal frame work well with that round. If a person wants to shoot the .357 Sig, I think Sig's own guns are among the best platform from which to do this.

I'm betting there was a bit more R&D than simply making a drop-in design.... 40 S&W runs about 35K psi and 357 Sig's run around 40K psi. I think their faster pulse and/or frequency along with the added pressure probably were heavily investigated and tested before the simple barrel swap was finalized, although I'm also willing to bet that was a design goal since the forty was very popular in the early to mid 90's and the forty is the parent cartridge to the .357.

LOL! I didn't mean to come across like I knew what anyone meant or put words in their mouth, I apologize if I did. I just read what he wrote and I though his points on shootability and Sig's probably greater expertise in developing and sustaining their own proprietary round were valid. Like him, I have a strong affinity for that round due to its great street record and, admittedly since my agency gives it to me, it has huge a affordability advantage...free!

But in the end, whatever one can shoot accurately, quickly and with spot on follow up shots, go with it. As an FI I once new used to say "Your hide, your choice."

I am not as versed in S&W history as Sig but hadn't the sales of the Gen 3 guns really slowed down by the time they discontinued them? Sig is still moving a lot of P series metal.

The Legions are sort of in between. They are not full custom shop guns but the triggers, sights and ignition parts are all upgraded. Triggers were designed by Bruce Gray IIRC. The frames are different and they have a unique beavertail and frame relieved undercut trigger guard like the X-5. To my eyes they are more like S&W performance center guns than the TSW.

I think that part of it was that Sig managed to hold onto some Gov contracts. I still see them in holsters here and there and as far as I know Secret Service still uses them along with the military. Along with that they are still used around the world in other militaries, unlike S&W. I know my state police went to Sig 227 from G21 but for other reasons

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The p229 was designed to handle both the added pressures of using the 40 cal and .357 Sig bullets. The p228 could not have handled this without a stiffer spring requiring a harder slide pull.

Now regardless if it was designed specifically for the 40 cal or the .357 Sig, the P229 was the first gun that could handle the added pressures of those rounds. The .357 Sig cartridge was developed in this same time frame and the round was developed to give a semi auto pistol the power of the .357 magnum revolver in a semi auto pistol with a lot more ammo capacity.

Wiley Capp with shooter's magazine actually got 80 fps quicker bullets out of the Sig shooting .357 Sigs than he did out of a Smith revolver shooting 357 magnums both at 125 grain. Now, I did not make that up it is in the magazine article but that is enough to prove that the Sig round can achieve the velocity and penetration of a much bigger cartridge such as the 40 and 357 mag.

That was the goal of the gun and regardless if it was strictly designed for the 40 cal and then Sig developed the .357 round for it or if the round was in R&D and they built the gun to handle the pressures. Either way, most every one that owns the Sig in p229 do so for the .357 Sig stigma not to shoot 40 cal bullets out of it.

I think a better argument against the pistol would be the cost of ammunition which is more than the 9mm, and which you added comments to represent. I once bought two boxes of .357 Remington hollow points which was mislabeled at FMJs for 20 bucks a box. That was a good day.

More than just the 9. It's more than the 40 or 45 at roughly 40 cents a round before shipping or $20/box on avg for range ammo. 40S&W is around $13 and 45 is around $15 a box.

Most people I know buy the 229 to shot 40. No one I know or even have heard in gun stores specifically want the 357. All the Sig 357 that I see in trades (and other 357sig chambered handguns) linger on the shelves for a long time.
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Yes energy is necessary and needed but so is penetration. Not everyone is 150 lbs and stands with their chest in full view facing you. This was actually the problem with why everyone ran to the 40 after the Miami shootout. A 9mm didn't penetrate one of the shooters deep enough. It stopped an inch from his heart after going through his hand first. Had something not been in the way there would have been less resistance and moat likely (obviously there is no way to know 100%) that it would have hit his heart and stopped him much faster.

Looking at Speer's balistics table
40s&w 165gr has 1150fps and 484ft-lbs at the muzzle. At 50 yards it has 1042fps and 398ft-lbs.

Meanwhile their 357sig has
1350fps and 506 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 1184fps with 389ft-lbs at 50 yards.

They are not that fad apart

The 10 mm round was developed after that, and I would imagine but do not know that they price the .357 Sig rounds like that because they do not want many avid shooters messing with the round. It is advantageous for them to keep the majority of them for LEOs/ governmental use only that way it makes it more easy to identify the bullets.

I understand the affordability argument and I do not range shoot the p229 a lot mostly use 9mms and 40s for that. However, in a situation where my life depended on it, then you bet I am using the Sig .357. No doubt.

Price has nothing to do with them wanting us to mess around with it or any advantages for LEO. Every ammo manufacturer makes a 357sig. I can buy German, Czech, Serbian, American, Italian 357sig. And there is tons of reloading data. It's expensive because it's not a heavily used round. Same reason as to why the 9mm is so cheap....everyone uses it, including the military. The more they make the cheaper it is. Just like the reason 38s&w short is $22/box....cause supply and demand. No one uses it so it's more expensive to make. This is not some super secret ammo.

It shoots a 9mm bullet. .355in. Same diameter as 9x19. .... .355in.

And if we're talking about penetration and energy then the 9x25 blows the 357sig out of the water with the same 125 grain bullet traveling at 1700fps and having 802ft-lbs of energy. Double the 357sig

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^ I understand economies of scale.

What does a Dillon have to do with a carry round, I am sure you are not very likely to find some carrying that as you are a .357 Sig.

Each gun with caliber has there own characteristics. You all know that, but you have a favorite round. I have a favorite round, it is what makes you different than me. To me the .357 is the perfect hand gun round. It is necked down so you will never ever have a failure to feed issue. It has the added velocity of a much larger cartridge with the penetration power as well. I can go to almost any store and buy ammo.

It is not an exotic or something that is unattainable. I have a PC 40 Smith and I like the p229 in .357 Sig I have just as good. I understand the one shot theory but I like the ability to be accurate and getting multiple shots off at the same time and being as accurate is important to me. It is like those people who carry 5 grand custom 45 ACPs in condition 1. Yeah good deal but what if the person comes across not one armed bad gun but 3 or 4. How quick can you actually be with a 45 ACP with multiple perps shooting at you.

It is expensive because compared to more popular calibers like 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP there is not enough economy of scale to drive the price down.

No one is controlling the flow of .357 Sig ammo to the general public because of LEO concerns. As has been pointed out in this thread being generous there are less than 20,000 LEO in the USA using the round.

Clearly you don't understand economy of scale if you think someone is keeping the cost of 357 Sig artificially high to make it more available to LEOs. You can't walk into Walmart and buy it for $13 for a box of 50. At just a quick glance the best price I would find was $.36 a round or $359 + shipping for a case. 9mm costs $200 for the same size bullet. 45 ACP cost $300 and you have almost double the raw materials.

If one carries multiple mags a guy with a 1911 can be very effective against multiple attackers. In the end it is more about the Indian than the arrow most of the time. In the end carry what you shoot best and enjoy doing so but don't use fuzzy logic to convince people to follow your lead.

It would not be the first time something like that has happened. Anyone remember the Saiga 12; however, this thread has really gotten off topic now.

I own multiple 1911s as you see by my screen name, but for some reason I never feel good carrying them. I shoot them ok but I much rather have 9mms, 40s and my Sig .357 at my side than have a 45 ACP. Do not know why?

personal preference.

LOL, here we go....
Nah man, I have to strongly disagree. Not fight picking or trying to be confrontational, but I'm old to enough to remember very clearly when this happened and its reverberation throughout law enforcement training circles. And what is clear from really studying that shootout in Miami is that the "lack of penetration" by that 115 gr 9mm was definitely NOT the problem. The FBI said it was, wasted millions on a bogus "Wound Ballistics Seminar" in 1987 to try to prove it was, but the fact is the reason for the Miami massacre was horrendous tactics and atrocious marksmanship. The Agent is question, Jerry Dove, fired multiple rounds of 115 grain Winchester Silvertip running about 1200 fps out of a 15 round S&W 459 from probably 20-30 feet, but only hit the suspect Michael Platt once. The round was a good round in its day and did a good job that day. But one bullet fired does not necessarily a gunfight make.

Blaming the Miami shootout on that single Silvertip is essentially blaming hardware (equipment) instead of software (training). The FBI has been famous for its lack of willingness in the modern era (1970’s and on) to teach Agents to be true gunfighters and in the 70's and 80's their tactical skills were very thin or nearly non-existent. The two suspects, Platt and Matix, were bank robbers that had made committed multiple robberies, were armed very well and both had military experience, had already shot multiple folks and probably murdered both their own wifes, one perhaps killed multiple spouses. These were not milquetoast wussies that would go gently into that good night.

Now, the FBI may not have known all that, but anyone whose had much experience as an LEO knows if you're going to take down a pair of serial bank robbers you had better darn well plan for the worst (heavily armed and very dangerous) accordingly and get as much help as possible. Instead, the FBI chose to ignore the available Miami-Metro Dade SWAT teams that were nearby and instead chose to ram these two suspects off the road into a tree in a residential neighborhood while armed with only two shotguns, three pistols and a host of six shot revolvers and pretty much no one wearing body armor...to take down bank robbers. That is a fairly good definition of horrible tactics and planning.

Now, I'm not judging or Monday morning QB'ing those Agents personally, especially the ones that tragically died, all I'm saying is the training and marksmanship the FBI administration had given them served them extremely poorly - any experienced city police detectives or state investigators would've called for SRT or SWAT once their car was spotted and waited for the big guns to arrive. No way they should have ever tried to make a stop like that, in that place, armed like they were. And when it did go down, the targets were often stationary, still in their car, and the distance was across about two car hoods. In fact, when Dove shot Platt, he was trying to climb out of a passenger car window, pretty much stationary for several seconds, but out of 15 shots in Dove’s S&W 459 magazine, only one shot connected with Platt.

This is why the FBI's protocol (still in place today) of 'penetration is everything' rings hollow. It's an argument designed to obscure the fact that their own administration provided horrible training to their field agents and got them hurt and/or killed. So instead of truthfully saying "Our tactics and training suck rocks" they did and continue to do what they always have and blame something else, in this case a single bullet.

Any good FI trainer will tell you that if you’re an LEO and you’re in a gunfight, you shoot until the deadly threat stops...you keep shooting accurately...no policeman ever counts on one bullet stopping an event, you simply can't do that. You plan on worse case scenarios and train likewise.

The bullet that hit Platt did what it was designed to do, and did it well. If five or six more rounds just like it had been accurately delivered, Platt would have certainly died in that passenger window and all eight agents could have focused on Matix. In fact, both suspects were initially prime targets since their car was pinned in on three sides by an FBI unit on the left, a tree in front and a parked car on the right. Sitting in their seats, they should've been fish in a barrel. Again, not judging, I'm not Bill Hickok and have never been in a gunfight, but if you're going to take on two deadly bank robbers, you'd better be thinking along the lines of tactical outcomes and marksmanship.

Sorry for the longwinded history lesson, but amongst firearms instructors who've been around awhile, the Miami Shootout is the example of why you don't take firearms and ammo advice from the FBI. They've been in 'cover their butt' mode for 30 years and still won't admit it was their own training, not that 9mm Silvertip, that failed horribly that day.

This is why when the 147 gr Subsonic came out in the early 90's (the perfect FBI recommended penetrating round adopted as a direct result from the Miami event) so many of us said "No way, give us street results first" because it was a slow, heavy bullet with a small hollow point mouth that drilled through meat and lacked sufficient velocity to expand. Sure enough, most every dept. that took the FBI's advice and adopted it ended up dropping it within 5 to 10 years because the reality on the street was "Sure it penetrates...all the way through, and it delivers little energy in the target". Its tendency towards over-penetration and its lack of velocity caused it to expand poorly and unreliably and, unless a brain or spine hit was achieved, few subjects went down very fast after being hit with it.

Now the FBI is back to preaching a doctrine that they've 'solved' gunfighting by finding this Great White Buffalo that magically combines heavier bullets with low recoil, small hollow point mouths, velocity around 900 fps, ease of rapid fire shooting and ballistics superior to 40's, 45's and .357 Sigs...sorry, but I've seen this movie before in the late 80's and throughout the 90's and I still don't buy in to it. The reason my agency went to the .357 Sig was because the FBI protocol-designed and approved 9mm's and 45's were over-penetrating, failing to expand and were not putting folks down *now*.

Given the fact that the .357 Sig is simply a hot rod 9mm to begin with, what we're really debating is how does one make the 9mm truly effective? Big, slow and narrow coned is the FBI method. Wide mouthed, lighter and travelling at Warp 9 is what many state police agencies, the Secret Service and the Air Marshalls prefer. Well, the street results since 1994 have shown that the .357 Sig version of the 9mm is very effective. But the FBI’s “new” stuff? I’m skeptical because it has no great database of street results yet; it's still theoretical in many respects.

Yes you can shoot a softer loaded 9mm quicker with less muzzle rise. But if I'm shooting to stop my own murderer, the idea of having the equivalent of two .357 Magnum revolvers loaded with old school 125 gr. SJHP rounds making a snot ton of energy that can be poured in that killer, all in one Sig pistol, well that makes me feel a bit more secure.

Sorry to drag this topic off into a massive drift, but I think there are quantifiable and justifiable points arguing in favor of the .357 Sig ‘moment of truth’ advantages over less powerful 9mm rounds.

But again, as already stated, carry what you’re willing to carry and what you shoot well accurately, quickly and repeatedly. Your skin, your choice.

So you are really basing your case/argument on a made up hypothesis you cannot prove? I remember the Sagia 12 back when CDNN was selling them for $399 back when EAA was still importing them. Prices jumped when Wolf became the importer IIRC. I am not sure what tenuous connection you are attempting to make.

I kinda got lost on the Saiga thing. Do you mean cause it got banned? In that case two things happened.
1. Prices went up
2. People stopped buying them. There was a very small initial mini panic that lasted about a day. In the end people basically said oh well and moved on.

There is still a Vepr 12 that doesn't require debanning

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I got lost when we left pistols and went to calibers . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I blame James&theGiant1911 LOL. He attempted to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the Sig P series was designed to shoot the .357 Sig and the best gun to shoot the .357 Sig is a Sig.

To get back on topic. Sig is IMHO is going to be heavily focusing on growing the contract base of the P320s which will become the meat and potatoes of the Sig volume model.

The P series will stick around but not be the focus. They will start to remove the excessive models of each gun that are not selling well.

They will improve and expand the Legion series pistols. I can see a Legion version of most of their pistols.

This is the general theme I have heard from industry people I have encountered on different boards, instructors who are closely tied to Bruce Gray and people who live near the plant and know people who work there.

So they are going to focus on poly models and move away from all metal units like Smith did?

dam, I hope not.

Well, that will be disappointing. I love the Sig lines and heft, and fit and finish of those original style Sig pistols is outstanding. I should have kept the 220 and 239 I recently let go . . .

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It is not that they are going away from them it is that you will not see 21 models of basically the same gun just with different finishes. I think you will be seeing alloy framed P series Sigs for a long time. Plus on top of that the used market has tons of LNIB guns everywhere.

You will be able to get that P220 or P239 back if and when you want to.

Probably not. Their P series is still widely used all over the world. S&W never really had that much of a international sales.

WVSIG is right. Having 21 models of each pistol is absurd. You don't need that many and it's just a waste of resources

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I own a Sig P239 .40 S&W and a .357 Sig barrel and mag; Glock 31 & 32 pistols (.357 Sig). My son has owned several Sig P229's and a Glock 33; currently has a P229 and a Glock 31, both .357 Sigs. My personal preference is the Glock 31 for shooting.

I agree. I'm admittedly a big fanboy when it comes to Sig, but they've really diluted their own brand with a senseless, dizzying array of variations on the same pistol. When the rainbow P938 and P239 came out, I thought "Oh man, here we go down the drain..."

Back on topic though, the OP asked if Sig was the 'new' 3rd Gen Smith. Well, in another way, yes they have been. Anyone deep in the hobby since about 1987 onward remembers the late 80's - early 90's S&W 'Gun of the Month' scheme that flooded the market with endless variations on same 3rd Gen theme. They even made posters you could buy breaking down all the model numbers so they made sense. Sig also went down that road of expanding too fast with way too many options, stretching themselves too thin, a la S&W. That's a bad thing.

Sig should consolidate its lineup and simply its offerings in both pistol and rifle and use the savings from a more streamlined system to permanently eliminate the new extended extractor (and go back to the legacy extractor like LEO depts. order and get) and drop all MIM parts. Make fewer, make them better.

I hope they keep making at least the P226 and P220 for years to come and they don't go down the same hole Smith did, building plastic guns as cheap as possible to soak up as much profit as they can while turning out bland, unextraordinary products. Sig's history, reputation and loyal customer base deserves better.

My SIGnificant other:

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

Good lord, I leave for a bit and a full fledged fight breaks out.

I think the main reason sales slowed was more with S&W collusion with the Clinton Administration. I really got into guns around 02/03 and the only S&Ws my local dealers would stock were used revolvers. Maybe there would be LEO trade-ins, but even after "peace" was declared, I never saw anything more than the value line or the SW99s in store.

I think the X5s and the Mastershop are a better comparison to the Performance Center while the Legions are the TSW equivalent. Supposedly, the US Mastershop will be up and running next year and we'll get more of these lovelies:


What I don't know (or if it's been mentioned) is if they'll get to full-on mental mode that's on the German Sig Sauer site:

Mastershop - Sig Sauer

So as not to start a new thread and because we kinda hit on the history of Sig a little, I have a question related to that.

Originally Sig had internal extractors. Now they are external. My questions ars about when did they switch to external and when did they go from small to large extractor and why?

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IIRC correctly the P229 has always had an external extractor because it has always had a milled stainless steel slide produced here in the US.

Sig change to the external extractor for the other models at the the same time they went to all stainless steel slide and rails on the rest of the classic P series guns, around 2007. It is a cost savings measure because it was cheaper to produce and mill the slide vs the internal extractor. They also created greater economy of scale by using the same or similar design on multiple guns. Plus there were issues with the internal extractor and the milled stainless slides on the P220.

The larger or longer extractor showed up in 2013. No one really knows why. The short extractor ran on the P229 for years without issue. There were not large reports of issues with them that I remember. I have never read a definitive reason for the change.

The reason for the longer extractor (E2 extractor) was because the machinery that made the short extractor (Legacy extractor) required drilling from three angles, where as the E2 requires a less expensive machine that drills from only two angles. This is why I like to look at used LEO guns when buying a used Sig, because almost all LEO contracts specify the short Legacy extractor, which is more robust and lasts longer.

I've been told by Sig folks that although the E2 isn't necessarily a bad thing, it isn't as strong and because of its design, has a greater possibility of failure than the Legacy. I have heard of a few cases of it breaking. Personally, I prefer the shorter Legacy immensely and was very disappointed the new pricey Legion series was released with the cheaper to mill E2 slide and extractor. If they really wanted to build it tough, they should've put in what police depts get, the Legacy version.

I also heard that once the machinery that drills the Legacy extractor slide wears out, they're gone for good. Oh, and Sig reputedly saved all of $100,000 by switching to the E2 2-angle machinery. That is not confidence inspiring.