I have been debating for a long time whether to buy an AR10 .308 as it seems much more effective than 5.56 at close range. However, many critics argue that the .308 is really designed for a long range gun and for close quarters it would be too difficult to shoot fast.

I was thinking about getting Windham's SRC .308 in a 16inch barrel

If you are talking about shooting people in a close-in, self-defense situation it is, in my humble opinion, too much gun. A .223 will rarely shoot all the way thru a body in a solid body shot but will usually penetrate soft body armor. I would be afraid of overpenetration. In a military situation it is not an issue. In your hallway it might very well be. Plus, have you ever shot a .308 short-barreled rifle indoors. (I have.) It is very, very unpleasant, to the point of being disorienting. Just my opinion, for what that may be worth to you.

I have seen youtube review where the guy shooting a .308 said follow up shots for close quarters made it too slow. The only .308 I shot was the M1A and the recoil felt very mild but never shot a .308 out of a 16 inch barrel

CQB-don't doubt the 5.56 at all. I'm not an officer, but I trust ours to do it's job. I've seen what it can do and it's horrific close in.

I have a LMT MWS with a short barrel, much like the British Army issues to its designated marksmen. Wonderful rifle, accurate and reliable. But it is very heavy. I also have a number of AR-15s in various configurations, and I would choose any of them over the LMT for use indoors and at short range. The 5.56 cartridge actually does pretty well in those situations. It's the long range situations where it is lacking. The 7.62 is extremely harsh in closed environments and followup shots would be difficult. Stick with the AR platform for close quarters. It's plenty adequate and handles better close in.

The blast and concussion from a 16" .308 in a hallway is probably like shooting a .357 in a phone booth. You wouldn't dream of doing it.

I used to frequent a 15 yard, two lane range and shooting a 6" 686 with 125 gr JHP .357 loads @ around 1400 fps was quite an experience even with good ear defenders. The noise was "impressive" and after a short delay there was a return pressure wave off the backstop. The range also had some attempt at sound absorbing walls, I doubt your house does.

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Release the Kraken

CQB is best suited from a 12ga or 5.56.

Friends don't let friends buy Taurus.

If by close quarters you mean inside your house, the .308 is WAY too much gun. The blast of a 12ga. is pretty mean, but at least it won't shoot through all your interior walls, to the outside, and into your neighbor's house.

Larry

As stated any 308 Rifle is going to be much heavier than a 5.56 Carbine. The muzzle energy of the 5.56 is adequate for most purposes up close and personal. The problem is that after the first shot the time taken to make accurate second, third, and fourth shots can be of utmost importance to be QUICK. The heavier the rifle, the more the recoil, the more the muzzle blast and flame will only slow those shots down. IMHO, that could well be the difference between success and failure. Don't over gun yourself. Modern self defense bullet performance is outstanding with some 5.56 bullets. One very light short barreled 5.56 Carbine with a 30 round magazine is everything one needs and nothing that one doesn't need in close quarters. I have a top quality AR-10 type rifle that is very accurate and deadly out to 1,000 yds. It is in a 'drag bag' with extra loaded magazines. It is not my 'go to' rifle in case of anything 'needy' close to my house or property. The AR-15 Carbine with a red dot optic and a 16" bbl. is. And in the case that the AR-15 is not the optimum SD weapon I need, there is a Rem. 870 setting right next to it with extended magazine tube, side saddle with 00 Buck, Slugs and night sights a glowing. ..................

And a big Aside: My wife is a great pistol shooter, but only a mediocre rifle shooter. BUT, she can handle the AR-15 with aplomb. She actually likes to shoot it as long as she has ear muffs. .... :-)

Frankly, if there is actually an "argument" going on about this, it must be between keyboard "experts" needing to fill blog pages, not actual practitioners.

The .308/7.62mm is a medium to long-range rifle round, which is why it has been a standard chambering for sniper rifles as well as one of the most popular hunting rounds. But you will be hard-pressed to find any SWAT/HRT or other professional user that uses a .308 weapon for short-range/close-in work, let alone inside buildings. The universal choice for that used to be 9mm SMG's, but nowadays are .223/5.56mm rifles.

Bigger is NOT always better, for all the reasons others have already listed. A .308 semi-auto rifle (but then a longer-barreled one) may be a sensible option if you anticipate defending a rural property, shooting outside over longer distances, but it would be more of a liability in close-in self-defense situations more typical of inhabited areas.

If it's rough on the shooter, image what it's like on the receiving end!

Well I have never owned an AR in .308 so it is easy to think more power is better. I also quickly forget my one AR15 with a vortex strike eagle and a full 30 round clip feels very heavy so imagine the same load in .308 that has to be way too cumbersome. I guess there is a reason many are not using .308 for close quarters.

I Just figured the .308 was the best all around.

Bullet choice is as important as mass/weight and velocity. For 'light' work I load my 30-06 down. Problem with AR is the you can only go down so far before function stops.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

As already said, a bit much for in the house. However lets go outside, say there is baddy's in a vehicle in front of your house or a baddy behind hard cover that needs shot. The 5.56/.223 may or may not get the job done, the 7.62/.308 Win is much better (read penetration) for that sort of thing. Of course we can construct all sorts of scenario's but for all around use it's hard to go wrong with the .308 Win.

With that said I have three AR-15's and one M1 Garand in 7.62 and one Armalite AR-10 in 7.62 along with three AK-47's and several suitable 12 Gauge shotguns for this sort of thing. I do believe a "well dressed" man or woman is pretty snazzy!

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Stay safe people!

Oh, my, a debate that we should never have, but we are having it. Just my opinion....And EVERYONE will have a different opinion. So here we go....YMMV!!

A rifle is the WORST possible choice for home defense. IMHO. A carbine is not much better except it might maneuver better in narrow hallways. If you live in a huge, palatial home, MAYBE you can use a rifle but it is not the best choice except for this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/BHfWOavrqAKuA/giphy.gif

(c) Universal Pictures, et al


There you are, up on the second floor balcony, fighting off hordes of bad guys. If that's what you are preparing for so be it. If you are a normal person it is just silly. Even if you have baddies in the street out front as noted above you still do not need a rifle until and unless we are in the midst of an American meltdown. THEN you will need a rifle.

In the meantime, a tactical shotgun (or maybe any shotgun but the long ones will be unwieldy indoors) in any gauge and a handgun or two will be sufficient to defend your home without sending high velocity rounds over to visit all of your neighbors.

A .308 indoors? In a 16 inch gun? You better hit every home invader all at once with the first shot because that second shot is going to be hard to find! Even in semi-auto mode. I am an M-14/M1A fan, and believe me I would not ever pick that one up inside my house. I don't know who came up with the concept of using modern sporting rifles, tactical set up or just plain Jane, for home defense but they are just wrong. Home offense is different - if you are kicking in doors and prepared to shoot terrorists, drug dealers, or other ne'er-do-wells okay, bring a long arm but you are not on TV and not para-military and your 15 round M&P/3rd Gen/SIG/Beretta/Hi-Power/six-shooter handguns will do the job, especially if backed up by a shotgun (if you can get to it).

As I said, YMMV, but I am a firm believer in not using too much gun inside your home.

In my opinion it is way too much gun for inside a house! My ideal in house gun is a 12ga pump shotgun, 20 inch barrel, loaded with 00 buck.

A 12ga in 3" or 3 1/2" "00" buck will serve you well but it may get messy. The 12 ga 2 3/4" "00" is 9 balls close to 38 diameter. But the 400gr slug maybe a better man stopper in close quarters determined by the light conditions. The "00" maybe better in the dark when the intended target can't be fully seen. My point is to wing them first then do a quick follow up shot.

I'm really impressed with the Russian Izmash Saiga Sporter with a 16" barrel in 308 or in 223. She's very light you can toss it around plus it never jams. I never seen a semi auto spit out the 308 rounds like this saiga does. The Russians at Izmash ( the ak47/ ak/akm people) find the saiga is more accurate in the two American rounds of 223/308 over the Russian calibers. Shooting 1 1/2" groups using South African 308 surplus ammo at 100yds no scope isn't too shabby. The guys on the IZHMASH Saiga-12 Shotguns forum are shooting 1/2" moa's with better new ammo.

What is the follow up shot for? The first one should clear the hallway...at least three BGs deep.

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Because of the metric system?

"A .308 indoors? In a 16 inch gun? You better hit every home invader all at once with the first shot because that second shot is going to be hard to find."



So a semi-auto .308 has more recoil than a 12 gauge?

Use what you're most comfortable with OP. A 16" AR-10 is a wonderful rifle. The only reason I use a POF .308 for HD is because it has a 12" barrel. I just haven't got around to cutting the barrel down on the Armalite.

I use Hornady TAP Barrier. I want it to turn cover into concealment. I know my house layout, the bad guy doesn't.

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Smith & Wesson beat four aces

What you need is a .50 cal Beowulf with 12" barrel.
It will stop any rhino or grizzly you find lurking in the hallway.

But for human bad guys try a 45 acp 1911 pistol or a 20 gauge 18" pump shotgun. Whichever.

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2B1ASK1

Lots of misinformation all up in here.


db Environmental noise
0 Threshold of hearing
10 Normal breathing
20 Rusting leaves
30 Whisper at 30 feet
40 Quiet street
50 Interior home noise
60 Conversation
70 Crowded restaurant
75 Kitchen appliances
80 City traffic
85 Hearing damage possible
90 Lawn mower
100 Chain shaw
120 Threshold of pain
120 Siren
134 .22 LR rifle
140 Jet engine at take-off
150 .410 shotgun
152 .22 LR pistol
153 20 gauge shotgun
155 .223 rifle
155 .25 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
156 .30-.30 rifle
156 .308 rifle
156 .44 Special revolver
157 .22 Magnum pistol
157 .45 ACP pistol
158 .380 ACP pistol
158 .38 Special revolver
159 .30-06
160 9mm Para pistol
163 .41 Magnum revolver
164 .357 Magnum revolver
164 .44 Magnum revolver

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Smith & Wesson beat four aces

Thanks guys! I think the fact I do not own a .308 is why I think I need one. But been told over and over the .308 is designed to be used with a long range scope and for hitting way out there. I totally get that the recoil from the .308 would be extremely difficult to get follow up shots and why the 300 blackout or the 7.62x39 for 200 yards or less would be preferred. I am also lead to believe a .308 in a bolt action would be cheaper and also better if long range is what I am seeking.

My first tour in RVN was with the M14. With a full mag in the rifle and two 4 mag pouches, 2 canteens, helmet and flak jacket and 120 degree temperatures and 90% or more humidity it made for a miserable day.

Second tour was with the M16A1. Lighter, but still an *** kicker in the SEA environment. In combat of course no one wears hearing protection, but I didn't notice a great deal of difference in muzzle blast.

Like most of you I have an AR10 in .308 as well as a Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM with a 16" barrel. Compared to the standard 22" barrel of the M1A, it will get your attention quickly.

The recoil of a semi-auto .308 is negligible. Follow up shots are easy. Not sure where folks are getting that .308 has stout recoil. I guess if they're petite or recoil sensitive. It's less than a .410 shotgun.

Here's a little girl shooting full auto .308. She's not scared.

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Smith & Wesson beat four aces

Well, of course you need one! If you need to use the CQB angle to convince the wife, then so be it. We've got your back*wink wink*. I bought my Socom 16 using a similar argument.

That being said, I agree with everyone who says it's a bit too much gun to light off in close quarters in addition to the over penetration aspect. My personal preference is a short barreled 12 gauge pump with #4 shot for the first couple of shells for less penetration followed by 3 double ought if more firepower is needed for follow up.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Well it now seems .308 is not as bad as everybody says it is. If a 13 year old girl can double tap and make it look so easy, I guess now I have an excuse for actually buying one.

I don't have an AR right now so my rifle would have to be my 18' m-14 bush rifle. I think they came out in the mid 90's. While being a nice rifle my ears do not want to hear it go off indoors. I feel I could control it, but feel much better suited with an 870 or my glock. Oh wait your talking the other half into why you need it? Why yes it is the perfect home defense rifle but just in case you should get her an AR platform to back you up. ��

This thread got me googling penetration info,take a look and you may rethink your choices on whatever gun and caliber you use for home defense.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

Marathonrunner:

Frankly, I still haven't figured out what you plan on doing with your proposed AR-10...hunting, home defense, target work or something else?

You have mentioned shooting at long range as well as close quarters shooting. Also, you have made mention of an "all-around rifle", and you have also cited cost as a concern. Some of items on your "wish list" are contradictory, for example - using a bolt action rifle for long range accuracy and cost, but also wanting a rifle for close quarters shooting.

My guess is that you are looking to go into a medium caliber rifle, and you want to select one that can fill a variety of roles including long range target shooting, as well as home defense. If that's the case, one thing you could consider is simply buying an upper chambered in either 6.8 SPC or .300 Blackout and mate the upper to your existing lower receiver. (Note - for the 6.8 SPC you'll also need a BCG and new magazines, for the .300 you'll only need the barreled action as you can use the 5.56mm BCG and magazines). Either of these options will give you a rifle with enhanced lethality for antipersonnel use at close quarters, and out to ranges of about 200m or so. If either of these options work for you, then you can always buy a separate lower later on and then have a dedicated rifle in your new caliber.

The .308 Winchester is my favorite medium caliber round, and I have a lever action rifle (Savage 99c) that will shoot dime-sized groups with factory ammo from the bench at 100 yards. Then again, I hunt game - not humans, and it would be unusual for me to shoot much past 150 yards where I hunt. The point is, I have yet to find one rifle that can do it all. At some point you have to make some decisions and accept some compromises with regards to your long guns.

By the way, I have been the lucky recipient of 2 actual, and 1 attempted home invasion while I was at home. In both of the actual break-ins, my weapon of choice was a Colt's Government Model chambered in .45 ACP, and for the attempted break-in, I repelled boarders with a S&W Model 66-2 chambered in .357 Magnum. In my experience and training, handguns are preferable at close quarters.

Regards,

Dave

Actually 556 is well suited. Shoot a 12G is good if you're in one room

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

For indoors I like to use a 4.5 foot long Mosin with the 2ft long bayonet extended. Bringing it to a nice 6.5 ft long CQB rifle. I can reach with either the bullet or the bayonet!



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

You are absolutely correct in that with so many different calibers of rifles, it's so hard to just pick one and stick to it. When you look at 7.62x39 vs 300 blackout, and .308 they are basically all .30 caliber but at different velocities so it is easy to just want the most powerful. Pistols are cheaper so you can buy one of each caliber and then make your mind up, but with rifles each rifle costs well over 1000 dollars if you get a good quality so I don't want to buy something that I have not test drove.

In reality, I doubt I will ever see Zombies or Red China will be invading us, so I doubt a SHTF will really become reality but I guess 5.56 in that scenario would be better since I will want more ammo than more powerful but less.

Marathonrunner:

Our white tail deer here in Central Texas aren't very big, and I have successfully taken them with my 5.56mm Colt CRE-18. However, I wanted to move up to a larger caliber in the AR platform. I did quite a bit of research, and was very impressed with the ballistics of the 6.8 SPC. It is the .270 caliber rifle in the semi auto world, and bullet diameter and performance is mid way between the 5.56mm and the 7.62mm. I purchased a used, but NIB and unfired PSA 6.8 SPC upper from a local for a good price (it also came with the BCG). I added a charging handle, magazine, Burris PEPR mount, and a Vortex 2-7x scope and mated it to my Colt lower. Later, I purchased a PSA "blemished" lower and now have 2 dedicated AR platform rifles. I didn't get a chance to hunt with it last year, but I hope to rectify that soon with a hog hunt. All told, I believe I have under $700.00 in my 6.8 SPC rifle. I really think this is a good way to go.

Good luck,

Dave

Ar10 in 308 recoil is a lot your kidding me right?

Try a 12ga pump with no butt pad/cushion?

I been shooting and hunting with a 30-06 bolt action for most of my 50 years of hunting.

Two big rotties would solve a home invasion problem?

My good friend , Big Cholla, is right on the money as well as a number of other posters above. Most of us have a number of " tools" in the tool box and are able to select the right one for the job at hand.

Okay, I will concede that in a semi-auto a .308/7.62 NATO is not exactly the same as a .416 Rigby. My primary hunting rifle is a nearly 50 year old Remington 788 in .308 and its recoil doesn't actually bother me much, either. But I admit to not being particularly recoil sensitive (I think because I like it but that's the shooting lover in me, I suppose). Also, it is my personal favorite rifle caliber. (.35 Whelen is next.)

Nevertheless, it is still my personal opinion that it is too much gun for home defense. If you are a revolver guy as I am a 686+ loaded with high quality defensive rounds in .38 Special (or +P if you must - but I don't) should suffice for almost any home threat scenario unless you live in Suffolk County, New York, and think MS-13 is going to be kicking in your door.

Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says you use your handgun to fight your way to your long gun. I do have shotguns ready for use but the handguns are 100% accessible, day and night. The shotguns are less easy to reach. Jus' sayin' - YMMV.

Everyone should have a 12 gauge shotgun, AR-15, and an AR-10 for defense/SHTF.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

You don't need an excuse from us to buy a medium bore rifle.

The way I would look at this is - think about what our military Special Forces use, with unlimited training, big budgets and fewer restrictions as to what they can buy and use (within reason) than the rest of the services (not to mention civilians). They have used 9 mm pistols and SMGs, .45 pistols (although the end of that era seems to have arrived), 5.56 mm for most longarm functions and the occasional .308/.300 Win. Mag/.338 Lapua Mag - for long range use, like snipers.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220