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04-25-2017, 06:12 PM
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Another Model 12 thread... I hope I did not screw up
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6518John, bigolddave, Breakaway500, CZU, Fat Frank, Frank46, Lee Barner, Mike, SC Hunter, sigp220.45, Texas Star, Watchdog |
04-25-2017, 07:16 PM
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I'm no expert on Model 12s, okay. Looking at what I can see of the serial number, it looks to be from around 1952.
I can't tell a lot from your photos, but I'm looking at the ventilated rib. I believe it's factory installed, and may be a Simmons rib. Simmons did send some ribs to Winchester (not a whole lot), and a factory installed rib will show the proof marks on the barrel and receiver to the left of the rib. If Simmons had installed it, the center stamped proof marks would have been covered, and the rib would be stamped on the left side as a Simmons. Factory installed ribs are not marked.
A lot of Model 12 trap guns had a Monte Carlo stock. Some trap guns were stamped "WS-1" on the left side of the barrel instead of the choke designation, but I have no idea what that means.
What kind of imprint/logo is on the recoil pad?
Can I tell if your gun is unmolested? Nope, sorry. It sure looks good, though. Depending on what you paid for it, I wouldn't be worried about having made a mistake buying it.
Last edited by Watchdog; 04-25-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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04-25-2017, 07:27 PM
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I can't see the top rear of the receiver very well, but it appears to be what is referred to as a "milled back". This is knurling from the end of the rib to the end of the receiver. If it is, this would indicate that it has the original ventilated rib style, as opposed to the less desirable but still fine "special rib", which is essentially a Simmons rib, but is probably original. When you work the action, is there a piece that comes up along the ejection port? This was a feature on the trap and skeet guns, and it served to improve feeding for shooting doubles.
If it has that feature, it would certainly be an original trap model if it has a long barrel and full choke. The gun looks very similar to two original traps I had years ago; one was a very late pre-war, and the other a very early post war. They are excellent guns, and I would still be shooting mine in competition if they had not become too expensive to repair. Fifty or sixty thousand rounds will tend to wear out most guns; the takedown adjustment was almost infinite, but the bolts will eventually need to be replaced or have to be welded to replace metal.
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04-25-2017, 07:30 PM
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It would be very unlikely that a trap model would be marked WS-1. That is the mark for one of the two Skeet chokes, WS-1 and WS-2, for Skeet In or Skeet Out. I have never seen a WS-2 stamp on other than Model 21 doubles.
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04-25-2017, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigolddave
I can't see the top rear of the receiver very well, but it appears to be what is referred to as a "milled back". This is knurling from the end of the rib to the end of the receiver. If it is, this would indicate that it has the original ventilated rib style, as opposed to the less desirable but still fine "special rib", which is essentially a Simmons rib, but is probably original. When you work the action, is there a piece that comes up along the ejection port? This was a feature on the trap and skeet guns, and it served to improve feeding for shooting doubles.
If it has that feature, it would certainly be an original trap model if it has a long barrel and full choke. The gun looks very similar to two original traps I had years ago; one was a very late pre-war, and the other a very early post war. They are excellent guns, and I would still be shooting mine in competition if they had not become too expensive to repair. Fifty or sixty thousand rounds will tend to wear out most guns; the takedown adjustment was almost infinite, but the bolts will eventually need to be replaced or have to be welded to replace metal.
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Hope this helps... Proof marks are left of the rib and it is 30", marked full.
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04-25-2017, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RdrBill
Sir.
Trap gun and Trap Grade are two different things. Trap gun refers to stock comb and rib configuration, this makes it shoot as a trap gun. Trap Grade is embellishments, this makes it pretty. Does it say TRAP GRADE on the lower portion of the magazine tube. There is a Model 12 book with all the answers, just like the SCS&W.
Bill@Yuma
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Thanks! It does not say trap grade.
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04-25-2017, 09:08 PM
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The stock looks to have a of drop for a trap gun, looks more like a field gun. That is a Winchester "Duckbill rib", not a Simmons. Not all Trap guns are marked so on the bottom of the magazine tube. I have a same era model 12 Skeet that isn't marked, but letters to a Skeet gun. Mine has pattern B checkering. Check and see if the take down threads have been taken up (Google it). If it has and there's still play, Midwest Gun Works makes oversized threads for it. Looks like a great gun that I would be proud to own.
Last edited by Mike in Reedley; 04-25-2017 at 09:12 PM.
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04-25-2017, 09:59 PM
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Two firms that I am aware of specialize in Model 12 work, Nu-Line in Missouri, and Wright's in Pinckneyville, IL. Both were highly recommended back in the day. Had my pre-war to Wright's twice, never used Nu-Line. Wright's had the reputation for quicker turn around, important if you need work done during the trap season.
I mentioned welding on the bolt above; I misspoke. The welding was actually on the locking recess in the receiver.
Do not make a practice of taking the gun apart. The principal wear problem is in the takedown. There is an adjustment that can be made to tighten the fit; Winchester had EIGHT adjusting collars of increasing "draw" so you know they anticipated wear.
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04-25-2017, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchdog
What kind of imprint/logo is on the recoil pad?
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Here you go.
To my eye, it looks pretty close to this competed auction:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/636759139
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04-26-2017, 07:54 AM
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Absent Comrade
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Beautiful gun, by the way, you can't have to many Model 12 threads.
Have a blessed day,
Leon
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04-26-2017, 09:14 AM
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Their 'Trap Gun' came off the shelf with a 30" Full, 12ga, VR configuration. A different order# was assigned if you were buying a plain stock from a montecarlo. But the other specs were the same.
Another out of the book order# was assigned to the Trap Gun w/a solid rib. But again,,12ga, 30" Full choke.
From there you could add extras or options. Different bbl lengths, gauges and chokes (from what they offered as stock). Different stock dimensions within reason, even a cheek piece left or right. Extra length forend, spec wood, A & B carve checkering, engraving, ect.
Many of the latter options came as standard if you ordered the gun as a Pigeon Grade.
So some will have the small hand engraved pigeon on the bottom of the bbl extension to signify that grade but will also be listed as a Trap (or Skeet, or Heavy Duck Gun).
So you can have a Pigeon Grade Trap, or Pigeon Grade Skeet. Any one of them with bbl, gauge choke and stock that doesn't necessarily look like it would conform to what you think of when you hear 'Trap' gun or Skeet' gun.
The Trap, Skeet and Heavy Duck guns were off the line production guns when ordered w/o any options.
Once the special order items began being added by the customers, the gun was then assembled by the Custom Shop at Winchester.
All the Pigeon Grade guns were Custom Shop guns.
No special ser# ranges for these, just the standard run #'s from production.
IIRC, the Trap forend had 2 diamond shaped patterns on the bottom. The butt stock may have had an open diamond in the center of the pistol grip pattern on the Trap, but I'm not sure now.
The Skeet and Trap are similar and they did change over the long production.
(But ,,you could order a Trap gun with Skeet pattern checkering!)
Their literature stated that a Winchester recoil pad would be fitted but if the customer requested, most any commercially available recoil pad would be installed at extra cost. So if you don't see the standard red Winchester pad on a gun it doesn't mean it's not original. You will have a hard time convincing a buyer of that though,,a major tire kicking point.
A Jostam or No-Shoc pad gets less of a skeptic glare than a no-name white line.
The one on the gun looks alot like the slightly later M12 pad used by Winchester but w/o the normal WINCHESTER lettering in the now blank area on the rear face.
These were white line pads made by Pachmyer (sp?) and used in the early 60's to the end of M12 production. I don't know if the post 64 'Y' series M12's used them also.
The pad on the gun appears to fit the wood perfectly,,not a later aftermarket add on unless the wood was refinished right along with the pad to get that nice fit.
The blank area on the rear face does appear to have been ground as to remove an existing logo/lettering (Pachmyer?). You can see the round swirls of a cutter not quite perfectly outlining the inlet.
I'm not sure how early those whiteline Pachm pads were used by Winchester. Perhaps a redo by them or aftermarket w/a stock refinish. Nicely done who ever did it.
Just my observations
The recoil pad would be my biggest question about the guns originality just seeing the pics and not having it in hand.
More home work I guess.
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04-26-2017, 09:24 AM
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Very nice!! I'd say it's a trap model. LOVE the wood and that oil finish. That GB auction made me sit back in my chair..I had no idea model 12s were bringing that kind of coin. I guess it makes 100% sense, seeing as the 12 is one of the all time great classics. Nice find!
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Last edited by Breakaway500; 04-26-2017 at 09:25 AM.
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