Help with Webley & Scott Mark VI 455

Hoping someone can help identify the markings on this Webley & Scott Pistol. I have been searching around internet and can find a good source to decipher what I am looking at.
Any help would be appreciated.

You'll need to find a different way to post your pics, they won't open!

Ivan

Ok, let me work on that, thanks

Ivan the Butcher said:

You'll need to find a different way to post your pics, they won't open!

Ivan

Click to expand...

Got them uploaded

Interesting. You are dealing with two different sets of stampings here:

First there are the standard proofs applied “at birth” when the gun was new and before and when it was put into service in 1916.

Second, there is a beautiful set of post-war Birmingham Nitro Proofs that were applied at the proof house before the gun was released for commercial sale after being surplused out. Those include the stampings on the left front barrel frame, any BNP on frames and cylinder, and the crossed-sceptre view mark on the left side of the frame.
Specifically, the stamping on the left show the caliber .455, the proof load case length, .760 inch, and below the proof load pressure in tons per square inch. The view mark identifies Birmingham, the year (I believe 1958 if it’s post-WW II, but no guarantees), and the rank of the inspector.

The detailed interpretation of the older marks I’ll have to leave to someone more familiar with those.

It's hard to tell from the pictures posted, but it looks to me like it's probably been rechambered for .45ACP. The gap between the back of the cylinder and the breech face looks too large for the original .455 cartridge. The .45ACP with half moon or full moon clips requires a larger headspace gap, usually accomplished by facing off the cylinder.

If this is the case it is recommended that you do NOT use .45ACP but instead use .45 Auto Rim. .45AR is loaded to the same pressure as .455 whereas .45ACP ammo is the equivalent of a .455 proof load. (I don't have the numbers off the top of my head but a little research should find them.)

I am assuming that if it was rechambered in .45, they would not have marked it in any way to let someone know.
What is the best way to determine this conversion?

Company Man said:

I am assuming that if it was rechambered in .45, they would not have marked it in any way to let someone know.
What is the best way to determine this conversion?

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No, they didn't mark them to show the conversion.

If the rear of the cylinder doesn't have any stampings or marks, it usually means it has been faced off for .45 ACP. Most were converted. If you have some .45 ACP and moon clips you can see if they fit. If it is unconverted they won't.

I shoot mine with regular factory .45 ACP.

I agree that the revolver appears to have been shaved.

Many folks do shoot the converted .455s with factory .45 ACP, but it is a bit risky. I have one of these converted MK VIs and handload Auto Rim .45s to lower pressure for it. The proof says 6 tons per square inch, which would be like 12,000 pounds per square inch, (or if we're talking about "long tons" of 2200 lbs, then we are looking at 13,200 lbs) and the typical 45 ACP is loaded to a higher pressure (about 19,000 lbs, IIRC) than that. I don't really rely on one of these for self defense, so I think that it is prudent to treat them with a little courtesy...

Here are a couple of photos that I found of a Webley that had been fired with 45 ACPs:



Rounds in a full moon clip:



Yours looks to be in pretty good shape, and they are a really interesting relic of a different era. Have fun with it.

By the way, I got some of this information from the British Militaria Forum, at CAUTION RE .455 REVOLVERS ALTERED TO SHOOT .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim - British Militaria Forums and some from my personal experience in shooting and handloading for my MK VI.

Best Regards, Les

I just got it out and looked at the cylinder. I can see it was shaved, easy to see how the bottom of serial number stamped on cylinder is missing bottom of the numbers from the cylinder being shaven.
This is the first W&S that I have owned, so trying to learn as much as I can about them.

I won’t shoot this one, it came in a trade to even out the other party’s end. I probably won’t keep it as the more I learn about them, I will most likely want to get one in the original 455 chambering.

Well, I'm still looking for one myself, Company Man, but I wouldn't let that stop me from handloading some mild .45 Auto Rim cartridges, or even reloading some .45 ACP rounds to reduced chamber pressure. Lots of folks successfully shoot regular ACPs, but I don't think it's worth the risk.

I even have some .455 ammo set aside for the day when I find an unconverted MK VI, but I have so many revolver "irons in the fire", that it's not a high priority.

You might think of this nice one you have as a placeholder.... Have some fun with it, but treat it with respect!!

By the way, just for fun, here is mine, as you can see, the markings are similar, and you can see that when they machined off the rear of the cylinder, it cut through the serial number on it.




Best Regards, Les

Pic #4 of the left side shows the Birmingham post-war date code for proof ( 1950 to 1974 ).
The crossed swords form 4 quadrants
The B on the right is for Birmingham (Proof House)
The lower number (1 in this instance) is the Inspector #)
The 'I' in the right quadrant is a rare one!. This the year/code.
Starting with A for 1950 and going forward.
All accounts say that the letters 'I' and 'Q' were not used to avoid confusion in reading the small stampings.

Well,,here is an 'I'. A couple of other such date codes using an 'I' have been found also plus the use of the 'Q' has been reported.
So,,the 'I',,if correct and not a broken die or other ?? would represent that the revolver was post-war proofed for commercial sale in 1959 by the Birmingham Proof House.

The two opposed arrowheads near that marking is the 'Sold from Service' marking. A marking showing that the revolver was OK'd to be sold as surplus from British Military Property.

The marking underneath the Sold from Service mark I can't recall what it is. I'll have to pull the book out for that one.

The tiny Crown/ BNP stamp on the left side of the frame is part of the post war proof marks for commercial resale. Birmingham NitroProof.

Single BroadArrow marks are British Military Property marking. They were generous with the mark and spare parts were often each marked with it too as well as the revolver itself in several places.
Some people call the mark a 'Crows Foot'. That remark probably doesn't get you a lot of new friends in BritLand.

The 'Crown/number/italic B' marks are BSA inspector markings. The number being the individual inspectors ID#.
These are orig WW1 era markings when the Webley revolver was accepted into service, it was run through one of the Small Arms facilitys for proof and inspection.
If it had gone through Enfield,,the letter would be E instead of the italic B. LSA used an 'X'. Sparkbrook used a block letter 'B' and so on.

The 16/Crown/GR/crossed pennents/P. is the original Military proof mark.
(19)16 King George.

The rest have been explained.

Use very light loads in 45ACP cases w/ moon clips or 45AR cases.
The post-war pressure marks are in English Tonnes per sq/in. This is the Service Load rating of the cartridge, not the proof load.

Fun shooters, treat them kindly. Cylinders are almost no where to be found anymore. Small parts are sometimes available but not all of them.
It's nice to have an unaltered piece, but a converted Webley is just as much fun to shoot and easy to load for. With light pressure loads in acp cases, the gun doesn't know the difference.

2152hq said:

.....
The lower number (1 in this instance) is the Inspector #)
The 'I' in the right quadrant is a rare one!. This the year/code.
Starting with A for 1950 and going forward.
All accounts say that the letters 'I' and 'Q' were not used to avoid confusion in reading the small stampings.

Well,,here is an 'I'. A couple of other such date codes using an 'I' have been found also plus the use of the 'Q' has been reported.
So,,the 'I',,if correct and not a broken die or other ?? would represent that the revolver was post-war proofed for commercial sale in 1959 by the Birmingham Proof House.
.......

Click to expand...

I think you mean the left quadrant, as the right quadrant has the B for Birmingham in it.

Actually, 'K' is 1959. I've read about the 'I' not being used, but I've seen it too many times; I simply don't believe it.

I have a BSR that quite clearly has an 'I' that is an 'I' and not a mis-struck anything else.

On the other hand, I've never come across a 'J' which was supposed to be used for 1958, so I think the 'I' was actually used for that.

I find it amazing that all this information is deciphered from the stampings.
I will need to copy and save all this information since this pistol has so a long history of government service (basically 2 World Wars).
Is it common for the W&S pistols to remain in service this long or have this many stampings?

In a word: yes!

The British love stampings. If you are interested in the Military Webley Revolvers (they also supplied the civilian and police markets), there is a small book available, "The Webley Service Revolver", by Robert Maze, ISBN: 978 1 84908 804 9 , (link to publisher: The Webley Service Revolver - Osprey Publishing) that offers quite a bit of information.

Sometimes Webleys were so highly regarded by their owners that they were housed in nicely made cases:



Best Regards, Les

Interesting post.
Question: With a "Converted" cylinder, is it possible to install a original .45 cylinder ?

If you mean an original Webley .455 cylinder, Jimmy, the answer is yes. The problem is finding one. There used to be some surplus cylinders available, but the demand seems to have exceeded the supply. I suppose that one surfaces every now and then, but I have never been able to catch one.

Best Regards, Les

"...I think you mean the left quadrant, as the right quadrant has the B for Birmingham in it.

Actually, 'K' is 1959..."

Well,, you got the idea!!,
Dyslexia is hell ..


As far as that small marking under the Sold from Service stamp,, I think it may be a 'Separation Mark'.
An Armourers inspection mark used to show the firearm is being removed from Service use & issue. It's fate at that point would be unkn (could be destroyed, sold to another Country, sold onto the Commercial market, stripped for usable parts, ect.)
The Sold from Service mark stamped right over the top of it would not be unusual then when the arm was actually sold off.

Just a guess. My other was a QC mark for the frame batch but it doesn't quite look right as there's no Broadarrow mixed into the figure as usually seen.


Not ususual to see this many and even more stampings on a British or Commonwealth arm.
Repair, multiple Commonwealth ownership marks, civilian/commercial ownership, proof and reproof marks, Unit markings from one or more Wars or Dust-ups.
Rebuild (FTR) markings, ect, ect.
They can tell quite a story some times and other times leave you with an unfinished puzzle to wonder about.

Company Man said:

.....since this pistol has so a long history of government service (basically 2 World Wars).
Is it common for the W&S pistols to remain in service this long or have this many stampings?

Click to expand...

Once you look at the historical sequence, it does make sense, but the stampings do indeed accumulate.

When the .455 caliber was retired and the new .38 Enfield (for the military) and .38 Webley (adopted by most police in the Empire) was introduced around 1930, the old Webleys like yours ended up in a military storage depot somewhere, although some were apparently sold out of service already back then.

At the beginning of WW II, when the British government saw the size of its armed forces (and those of the Commonwealth) balloon, many of the .455 revolvers were reactivated, not for front-line military service, but they were given to home guards and to police in exchange for drafting their .38 Webleys. Remember the shortage of .38 revolvers that led to over half a million Smith & Wesson BSR’s shipped overseas.

Finally, in the second half of the 1950s, Britain began transitioning to the Browning HP as its military sidearm, although the official service revolver, the Enfield No.2 Mk I**, remained on duty into the 1960s.

That’s when Webleys (and S&W BSR’s) were finally “cleared out” and surplussed in significant numbers, requiring, however, commercial proofing before civilian sale as the military proofing during the war wasn’t deemed sufficient.

As was mentioned above, this does not even address the issue of a possible arsenal refinish and accompanying stamps (FTR) and any unit markings.

And if your gun had been imported into the US after a certain date, it would have been graced with the final indignity of an importer stamp