Got this email from CMP about the 1911's they hope to get. Looks like they want to CTA with the extra hoops to jump through. Now if only they let the M! Garand's and Carbines back into the country.

CMP 1911 Information

To all CMP constituents:

The CMP Board of Directors has discussed at length how the sales of 1911s would be handled, if the CMP were to ever receive them from the United States Army.

Some preliminary decisions:

Decisions concerning the grade and pricing of the 1911s will not be made until inspection has occurred of a substantial quantity which will take an estimated 150 days post receipt.
All laws pertaining to the sale of 1911s by CMP will be strictly obeyed.
Potential purchasers will have to provide to CMP a new set of documents exhibiting: 1) proof of U.S. Citizenship, 2) proof of membership in a CMP affiliated club, 3) proof of participation in a marksmanship activity, 4) a new form 2A with notary, 5) successful completion of a NICS background check, 6) a signed copy of the 01 Federal Firearms License in which the 1911 will be transferred to.
The CMP customer will be required to complete a form 4473 in person and successfully complete another NICS check by the recipient FFL holder before the pistol can be transferred.
Qualified CMP customer will only be allowed to purchase one 1911 per calendar year.
No 1911s available in the CMP stores, or on line, only mail order sales.
CMP will set the date in which it will accept orders for the 1911s. The date will be posted to the world.
Orders will only be accepted via mail order delivery.
Orders will only be accepted post marked on the date or after, no early orders.
Once CMP receives 10,000 orders, customer names will be loaded into the Random Number Generator.
The Random Number Generator will provide a list of names in sequence order through a random picking process to CMP.
Customers will be contacted in the sequence provided by the Random Number Generator.
When the customer is contacted a list of 1911 grades and pricing options that are available will be offered for selection of one.
As CMP proceeds down the sequenced list less grade and pricing options will be available. Again, this done completely random.

Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program

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Psalm 23:4

I wont a SINGER.

Ready, willing, and able.

Proof of Citizenship and 2 background checks! If you enlist you could be issued a better grade weapon, And you don't have to be a citizen!

Ivan

That's a lot of red tape. I'd rather pay too much

Don`t hold your breath,rumor has it rack grade pistols will be 1000.00.All the high end pieces will go to CMP auction.

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SWCA#2288
SWHF#407

No doubts about that. Any pistol found to be entirely original (correct parts, finish, etc), regardless of overall condition, will probably go to auction and prospective purchasers will be bidding against serious collectors across the country. Deep pockets will prevail.

Not going through all that nonsense for a gun. Proof of citizenship, notaries, memberships, writing letters. Don't need another gun that bad

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Sorry, but they have said no auction - all will be graded and offered through the random number generated list. "No 1911s available in the CMP stores, or on line, only mail order sales." Which, IMHO, is far superior because it does not favor the wealthy over the enthusiast with less cash. I rather like most of what they said (the multiple background checks is complete BS but whatever).

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Who watches the watchers?

So what to refinished, rebuilt, mixmaster USGI 1911's go for out in the field?

I have seen this figure mentioned else where. I guess I don't have the collector mentality as I just don't see them worth that.

Will you be able to buy one in Californication?

Since they are over 50 years old, we should be able to, after state sales tax is collected and then you get to wait 10 days to pick it up, after the paperwork is completed at the receiving dealer.

You did note on the "revised" instructions that it requires two NCIS checks didn't you ? One by them before they ship a pistol and one by your FFL for you to pick it up. No C&R FFL's will be usable.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I would have thought that a copy of a DD form 214 or a copy of one's honorable discharge certificate would be an option instead of having to prove membership in a CMP affiliated club, etc. I would definitely have given priority to current service members and veterans - after all, these were the guns most vets learned to use while in the military. If they were trusted with them then, they should be trusted with them now.

As issued, 1911s are really not all that suitable for marksmanship competition, and that would usually not be the point of wanting to own one. Most would have to be accurized for precision use, and that would ruin any collector value.

Somebody in the CMP has their objectives, standards and priorities screwed up for politically correct reasons.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Question- how does one get a NICS check without a purchase, and what is the proof?

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

PALADIN85020 explained it in alot nicer terms than I was going to.

Well, here we go again with all the speculating and griping and looking for the CMP's hidden agenda regarding the 1911s.

I, too, got the e-mail this morning. Then shortly after received a second e-mail from the CMP, "clarifying" some things that were in the first e-mail.

So I'll post the two e-mails here for everyone to read.

Speaking for myself, as much as I love the old 1911s and 1911A1s, I'm probably going to pass on this.

I'd been looking forward to maybe getting one, but not now. Reading the e-mails, there's simply too much pure-T bureaucratic B.S. to go through to get one. I'm just not going to jump through all the CMP-required hoops.

Oh, and I could only buy one a year?!? And that's if I was lucky enough to be chosen in a group picked by some Random Number Generator six or seven months after the CMP gets the pistols? Get away from me with all that, just get away.

I've tried to be open minded about potential CMP requirements and time frames...but this pretty much puts the kibosh on this deal for me.

There are still beaucoup 1911s and 1911A1s on the open market. Yeah, they're expensive, for the most part, but if I wanted one, I could have it in a few days...not sometime next year or the year after.

Sorry, CMP...you lost my business.

Here is the information contained in the two e-mails I received this morning:

I figured the process would look something like this. They're only allowed to sell 10,000 per year. They'll sell out quickly.

The hoops aren't that much different then a typical CMP purchase. They are basically adding the requirement that the guns go through a FFL rather than sent directly to your house. I'm assuming the first background check will processed based on the info on your order form and you won't even know it happened (unless of course you are denied).

This system will help limit the number of guns being purchased for immediate resale.

I don't understand the logic behind people thinking they should give these away to former service members. I heard the statistic last night that there are nearly 1 million new service members since 9/11. How are you going to divide 100,000 pistols among 1,000,000+ people? Does everyone get 10% of a pistol?
If you start giving the pistols away they'll just end up on gunbroker going to the highest bidder anyways...

No one said anything about "giving away" the 1911's to vets.
Give veterans priority over civilians in social clubs who never served and only want to have a piece of U.S. Military history while never earning it.

I have to respectfully disagree with that, especially the part about "current service members" being given priority. There's a reason the CMP is called the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I served fifty years ago, but some boot recruit should get priority over me? I don't think so. I also don't see how the issue of "trust" should figure into the equation.

I just think this is another case of looking for a hidden agenda or motive that doesn't exist. That's just my opinion. I don't see some sort of 1911 marketing conspiracy here.

What do you think they're worth? Have you recently tried to buy a WWI or WWII era G.I. 1911 or 1911A1? Have you priced them on today's market? The days of $500 and $600 1911s are over, folks. Especially the harder-to-find ones like Union Switch & Signal or Remington UMC or Springfield. Or even just a plain ol' Colt in top notch condition.

In the threads about the CMP 1911s, there have been people talking about "I picked one up at a pawn shop for four hundred bucks?" Yeah? When was that? 1979?

I'm fairly certain the member meant "giving away" in a figurative sense.

People in Hell want ice water.

I'd really like for someone who's knowledgeable to explain the term "rack grade" to me. Seriously, what does that mean?

Because if I found a fully functional genuine G.I. 1911 for a grand, I'd pounce on it and as many others as I could afford (if I had the money).

Too much CMP nonsense to gain my interest. I guess I'll just have to spend the $$$ on a DW VBOB.

Where's my "sitting back eating popcorn" emoji?


Awful lot of sour grapes in this post . Not what I normally expect from this site.

That said, I have seen the same thing on all the sites with CMP 1911 threads.

To own a genuine USGI WWl, WWll, Korean War or Vietnam War era 1911 would be great - but cutting through all the red tape makes it a tedious ordeal. While I have not ruled going through the process out, we first need to see if they will ever be released.

Here you go - the names sound arbitrary but fair-excellent is more objective.

M1 Garand - Civilian Marksmanship ProgramCivilian Marksmanship Program

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It looks more daunting than it actually is. The only requirements you might not already meet is belonging to a CMP club and the proof of marksmanship activities. Spend $20 and joint th Garand Collectors Association, and the list of activities that qualify for the marksmanship is pretty lenient.

CMP has fairly clear definitions of the various grades used for the M1s. It's really all about wear and tear and original vs. replacement parts. Not that complicated.

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Who watches the watchers?

Maybe I just think differently than most (which is often the case) but if I could get my hands on the actual pistol I was issued/carried, then it would be worth a lot to me. Otherwise, there is no shortage of 1911s on the market, new and used, so to jump through all these hoops and delays and (possibly) pay a premium? Nah. (I do understand the historical value to many, but I'm just saying what I think.)

Once more, we're all shown that when it absolutely HAS to be fouled-up, convoluted and fu-barred, no one beats our government.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

While I agree that the double NICS check is pure stupidity. I must say: Wow, tough crowd.

CMP has mandates. The foremost mandate is to increase CIVILIAN marksmanship. They are tasked with providing weapons to civilians that will allow them to learn the fundamentals of good marksmanship, to practice said skills, and to work to better those skills. All their requirements make sense if you know what CMP is, and don't try to re-create it into an image you believe it should be.

If you really understand CMPs purpose then not giving veterans or active duty personnel preference makes perfect sense. Those people have had military marksmanship training (well, to be fair they have it on paper in most of the services).

Again, the rumors about the 1911s have been hot and heavy and nearly 100% wrong. I'm waiting for the final say from CMP, but have to say that their latest decisions have been a breath of fresh air compared to the speculations offered by the know-everything crowd.

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Who watches the watchers?

Great.
Gives me hope that I’ll be able to snag one or two.

I do find it funny that whenever someone says, $1000 - no way - then the next breath from someone else is, have you seen what really nice condition prices Colts, Remingtons, etc go for!

Sure, but most of the ones that will be rack grade will have been in service for 70 years - some will be nice, many will be very worn. AND you can pick up a serviceable 1911a1 that was stolen from the govt in the 40's, 50's or Vietnam era that is in nicer shape than many of these, for a decent price. If they sell like garands at CMP, I expect them to be just a few hundred under market value. NOT the mint ones that go for $4000 but the average rack grade and up, that you can still find for $700-$1100. They might be missing the gov't stamp (scrubbed off), or something wrong with them.

But on the lower end of CMP rating, it might be bomar sights on a slide, or very well used, replaced slide, or who knows what for the lower end ones.
I expect they will have rack grade close to a $1000 (Mark Johnson from CMP stated he guessed that was a rough value) and the less better shape Field grade will be maybe $150-$200 less and then more correct / better condition will shoot up. Just like the M1 Carbine and IHC releases in the last couple of years....

Too much red tape bs. Who’s going to get them? We ain’t in the click were screwed.

How does someone "in the click" have a better chance of getting one? The way they're doing this means anyone could get one, not just special people. Your request will be put in a random number generator. I don't think those play favors. If you've ever bought a gun or ammo through the CMP then you've been through most of the "red tape" already. Just a couple more have been added. I'd only be interested in one if I could be guaranteed it was WWII era, but that's not guaranteed. And, one gun a year means dealers won't be buying them up and reselling them at big prices at gun shows and gives more folks a chance of owning one. Sounds fair to me.

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Get off my lawn!

Just the other day in this thread, you said you weren't going to buy one anyway, so why are you complaining about it?

Who exactly is the clique?

If you're referring to the CMP, you're a bit off base on that.

The CMP is a federally chartered 501(c)(3) corporation, but is not run by the government.

The CMP is overseen by a Board of Governors, none of whom are government officials. Some may have held elected office in the past, but no longer do so. There are also retired military officers on the Board.

One member of the Board of Directors is Allan Cors, whose name should be familiar to all NRA members.

Sour grapes? Here? No, surely not.

To properly understand "rack grade" you must first understand "service grade", as used by CMP. "Service grade" indicates that the piece meets all criteria for issue to the troops under DOD guidelines. "Rack grade" indicates something less than service grade (muzzle erosion, extreme wear and tear, etc), based upon general standards for issue.

Fully functional GI pistols are not particularly rare. What is actually rare is the fully functional GI pistol in all original condition (all original parts, original finish, etc). The vast majority of remaining stocks of 1911 pistols have been arsenal overhauled at least once, some more than once, during which no effort was expended to reassemble pistols with original parts. Pistols made by Colt, Remington Rand, Ithaca, Union Switch & Signal, and the (very few) completed by Singer were all made under a contractual requirement that every part in every pistol must be fully interchangeable with every other pistol by every other manufacturer.

The last M1911A1 pistol order was completed in 1945. No other pistols were ever taken in by the military (other than special purpose pistols such as National Match guns, etc). All of the CMP guns are over 70 years old, most have been arsenal overhauled and/or refinished, and very few remain in original configuration.

Those hoping for a jackpot win with a CMP 1911 pistol order are likely to be disappointed. My last major purchase of service pistols was from a US Coast Guard vessel transitioning to the M9 Beretta, on which my son was a junior petty officer in about 1992. We acquired 11 M1911A1 pistols by lawful sale. None were fully original (Colt, Rem-Rand, Ithaca, US&S examples included). Four of the 11 had been arsenal overhauled, and were so marked.

I suspect that many of the CMP pistols will be worth more when reduced to used parts for the collector trade (to restore other pistols to as-issued condition) than they will be worth as delivered. 100,000 pistols, released at the rate of 10,000 per year, may have a slight impact on the collector market for a short time, but I doubt that existing examples of original pistols will suffer any loss of value due to CMP sales.

Any of the 1911's in original condition are probably going to auction. This will certainly be true for the more rare manufacturers, and it would not surprise me if the Remington Rands do so when NIB. I will try for one regardless of condition. My USMC M45A1 needs a buddy. I will try for Colt but it really does not matter what marque in the end.

As the letter states, none will be sold online/auctioned. Only by mail and if your name is chosen. The CMP email is above.

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Get off my lawn!

The first rule of The Clique is you don't talk about The Clique.

All I've managed to find out is that they're a group of nameless men usually described as having "deep pockets". They're supposedly conspiring to place volunteers within the CMP who will take part in repairing the 1911s, but who will hold out choice pieces for members of The Clique.

They could be anyone. They could be everywhere.

Heck....I'll sell you an original 1911A1.....and WITHOUT all the B.S.!!!

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

I think my feline friend has this nailed.

Attached Images

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Release the Kraken

I'm so used to anything rare or pristine that they get going to auction. Will be interesting to see how they decide to price the rare ones.

I got this in e-mail today. Guns America article by S.H. Blannelberry. It seems that CMP is selling these more as collectibles rather than simply firearms. Both the price and hoops designed for a major CYA just in case something bad happens with one of these guns. Can't really say I blame them.
I'm still on the fence. I have a G.I. issue 1911 already. I'm still waiting to see what they got and where actual prices will be. But I admit, I am tempted.

CMP Plan To Sell Army 1911s Reeks Of A Power Trip

Sorry I just can't see the logic in the way they went about CYA. Criminals aren't looking for historical firearms to commit crime with. Just like they aren't looking for bayonet lugs or Garands.

Proof of citizenship? As a former resident alien I was LEGALLY allowed to walk into a gun shop and buy whatever I could afford! How does a US born citizen prove citizenship? Apply for a passport? Send them a birth certificate?

Notorized? Why?

Mailed in requests? The only thing I can see this use is to avoid email spam but all they have to is create a new email for this purpose only.



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