Questioning Why the Colt .38 Super

DWalt said:

The M1905 Colt was not designed for the later M1911 .45 cartridge. Rather it used a cartridge having a lighter 200 grain bullet at a lower chamber pressure (cataloged as the .45 Colt's Automatic). While post-1911 .45 ACP ammunition can be used in the M1905, sooner or later it will result in cracking of the slide around the barrel wedge at the front of the slide. Use of .38 Super ammunition in the Colt M1902 and M1903 pistols can result in the same slide failure. There is no good way to repair it. I have seen many M1902/03/05 pistols with such slide cracks. I once owned a M1903 in fairly high condition, and I handloaded only lead bullet .38 ACP loads just powerful enough to function its action reliably.

I believe that the development of the .357 Magnum cartridge and revolver for LE use by S&W was a direct competitive challenge to Colt's .38 Super pistol for the LE market, and most certainly negatively affected the future market popularity of the Colt .38 Super. Remember that there were also numerous powerful 9mm cartridges similar to the .38 Super in existence prior to its development. such as the 9mm Steyr , the 9mm Mauser Export, and the 9mm Bergman-Bayard (9mm Largo). And several other 9mm cartridges most have never heard of.

Click to expand...

%%%%%

I agree about the 1905 Colt as a convenient way to establish the feasibility of a .45 semi auto toward deveopment of a modern replacement of the unsatifactory .38 revolver. The success was the 1911 after a variety of interim development improve models.

About cracking frames at the muzzle slide lock, I restored two of them by closing the crack mechanically best I could, then ground into the crack deep enuf to get MIG weld all the way thru & put weld in to refit for the cross slide. When near final finish I heated the worked area to a red, finished polish & had it Turnbulls charcoal blue. They cautioned the blue wouldn't hide the weld which was true because I knew where to look but nobody discovered it.

Another similar 1905 was cracked over 1/16", so much an owner had shimmed the forward movement of the side, probably to restore alignment with the disconnector. Same fix.

I had a 1902 with major distress by bubba filing & grinding, about welds to fix. One one I failed to do my red reheat & it was visible but all the others were as above.

My data base is small of about 10 1905s & over 20 .38s & never saw one of them with distress in the muzzle crack area, which leads me to believe the frequent Super caution is overblown -- something like the cautions about +P ammo for business but not for practice ----->

Pre War Colt .38 Super Match & Colt 1902 Sporting

I'm lucky to have a couple of .38ACP's. Sorry for the crappy pic's.

I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
Only reason it stays a 9mm is the cost of ammo. I reload both but since I seem to loose 10% of the brass, the 9 is shot more.

As to "why" the .38 Super, I think because J. M. Browning wasn't welded to the .45 Auto as the be-all caliber it has become in post-modern America - not the rest of the world.
In fact, the introduction of the .38 Auto, and later .38 Super would seem to be Browning's answer to the then young, 9mm "Luger" in an existing American platform. Terminal ballistics between the 9mm and .38 Super weren't then, and aren't today that far different. I own both and have found the greatest advantage for the Super to be Underwood ammo, which is about 100 fpe more than the 9mm standard pressure, though +P+ 9mm gets pretty close.
It's worth noting that further along in Browning's firearms development came the Hi-Power, which still today fully competitive with modern 9mm handguns.

From an engineering standpoint, the .38 Super is more reliable in feeding due to the cartridge mid-line sitting closer to the bore axis. Supers tend to be very slick feeders.

IMO, if I'm gonna carry a .38 caliber in a 1911, I might as well favor the Super over the 9mm for a couple of reasons. First, believe it or not, one can fire 9mm ammo from a Super chamber all day including Sunday with no problem...so much for worrying about a supply of scarce Super ammo. Second, the Super CAN be loaded hotter than the 9mm which gives an edge with any bullet style. Third, the Super can be barreled to handle the even more powerful 9x23 Winchester which is basically a true .357 Magnum in an auto pistol.

What with all the fascination of shooting the .357 Remington Magnum from semiautomatic handguns that drives sales of Coonan pistols, people should stop and compare some numbers and realize they can have that in the 9x23. THAT is the caliber that needs to be resurrected in a factory chambering!

Having said all that, the other side of the "why" question comes with the fact that the .40 S&W 165 grain FMJ loads are quite potent, in smaller actions, plus the 10mm is fare more potent in full-size actions.

I don't understand the question? Why the 38 supper over the acp?

Why the 38 supper when there were 1900s? Because know what you have to use! It's like why 357 doesn't fit into a 38spl cylinder! Because someone is going to do something stupid. Otherwise know your gun and what can be used in it. Ammo manufacturers shouldn't be your mommy and daddy. Know what you have

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Get one of each. I have .45 ACP, 38 Super, and 380 magnum, oops, I mean 9mm.

Have wanted a Super for years, as I've somehow accumulated a hodge-podge of 1911's in .22, 9mm, 10mm and several .45's.
My 9mm is an older Colt Commander.

From what I've heard, I can replace barrel and magazine(s) with .38 Super and go. Anyone here ever done this?

Sorry to be O/T some....

In south Texas, it's a border thing.

Old Corp said:

Have wanted a Super for years, as I've somehow accumulated a hodge-podge of 1911's in .22, 9mm, 10mm and several .45's.
My 9mm is an older Colt Commander.

From what I've heard, I can replace barrel and magazine(s) with .38 Super and go. Anyone here ever done this?

Sorry to be O/T some....

Click to expand...

Yes, yes, yes. All you need is a .38 Super barrel and magazine and your 9mm GM becomes a .38 Super GM. Likewise, you can easily convert a .38 Super GM to 9mm in the same way using the same slide. Correct recoil springs are needed. You can also add a .45 slide, barrel, magazine and ejector to a .38 Super or 9mm frame to fire .45 ACP. Or you can convert a .45 frame to 9mm and/or .38 Super. Again with proper slide, magazine, recoil springs and ejector. BTW, if you have a spare 9mm barrel, it can easily be chambered to .38 Super. Add a .22 conversion unit, and you have 4-caliber capability on the same frame. While you can fire 9mm from a .38 Super barrel, I don't recommend it. Likewise, 9mm does not feed reliably from a .38 Super magazine. At least that has been my experience.

I have used such a setup successfully for many years. I am surprised more do not do it. I like the idea of multi-caliber capable guns.

"Third, the Super can be barreled to handle the even more powerful 9x23 Winchester which is basically a true .357 Magnum in an auto pistol."

9x23 Win works fine in a .38 Super chamber and vice versa. I have used the two interchangeably in the same barrel for many years. Some say that can't be done but they are flat wrong. And I use .38 Super reloading dies for both calibers. I have a 9x23 die set but I don't need it or use it.

No use beating a dead horse I heard early in life & I stop beating this one herewith. -- With stated 1930s mind set -- Boiled down to essentials, I was interested in a possible bottlenecked .45AcP to a .45-38 or .45-40 cal to upgrade upgrade 1911 performance by simple replacement of the barrel, rather than upgrade its innards for the .38 Super.

In the scores of responses I saw only one reference the neckdown subject being unpopular in the market place. The rest had some perhaps useful history, periphal info & a huge amount of bloviating scarcely subject related but did have some nice images & interesting dog & pony stories.

I did a google search about bottleneck pistol cartridges & found there is one now in existence, the .400 Cor-Bon, a neckdown of the .45ACP now a lifetime after my wondering about 1930s --

So thanks a lot for keeping me interested in my late 95th year ----->

At one time you could buy .400 Cor-Bon barrels cheaply. I think I paid about $40 for one from eBay. Making brass is simple, just FL size .45 ACP brass in a .400 Cor-Bon die. I have heard you can buy 7.63mm Mauser/Russian barrels for the GM also, but I never saw one. They will fit in a .38 Super magazine but you can load only about 5 rounds before you get interference and jamming problems due to the excessive COAL.

I have formed several hundred .400 Cor-Bon cases. I have fired maybe 500 rounds. For some reason I could never get too excited about that caliber (or the .40 S&W and 10 mm for that matter), but I can't say anything bad either. One thing is that there are never any feeding problems. Any .40 bullets work, but most of those I have loaded use lead bullets.

I personally have a Colt frame which I use for 9mm, .38 Super, .45 ACP, 9x23 Win/Steyr/Largo, .400 Cor-Bon, and .22 LR. It takes only a few minutes to change calibers. It gets the most use for .38 Super.

DWalt said:

9x23 Win works fine in a .38 Super chamber and vice versa. I have used the two interchangeably in the same barrel for many years. Some say that can't be done but they are flat wrong. And I use .38 Super reloading dies for both calibers. I have a 9x23 die set but I don't need it or use it.

Click to expand...

DWalt, would you please elaborate on this statement? I have two Colts in .38 Super - one pre-WW2, and one from just after WW2. A 9x23 case drops into the chamber and sinks way below the position it would have if properly headspaced. There's no way it would be safe to fire a 9x23 in either of these pistols.

There are .38 Super barrels being made now that are designed to headspace on the case mouth. Perhaps that's what you are referring to. I don't have one of those. What .38 Super barrel are you using?

Thx,
Curl

kwill1911 said:

Yes, that is incorrect. Colt advertising and promotional material in 1929 and the early 1930s promoted it for big game hunting and target shooting and never mentions law enforcement at all. The copy usually said "The Ideal "One-hand-gun" for Big Game. Will stop any animal on the American Continent. This new Colt is brought out to meet the demand of the Target Shooter and Big-Game Hunter to handle the powerful .38-caliber Automatic Cartridge."

Click to expand...

And I think Colt's early ads made it clear that the Super WAS loaded hot from the first. I just don't believe what I read here about the warm load not arriving until 1932.

I can check my copy of Haven & Belden, but think I recall Colt ads in that volume making it clear that the Super was hot at the outset.

I do NOT believe it was especially promoted for target shooting. Accuracy was awful in my .38 Super Match, made about 1936. I sold the gun.

Not until barrels began to be head-spaced on the case mouth was accuracy good.

Today, I won't buy a Super. I'd choose a .357 SIG or rely on Plus P 9mm ammo.

CptCurl said:

DWalt, would you please elaborate on this statement? I have two Colts in .38 Super - one pre-WW2, and one from just after WW2. A 9x23 case drops into the chamber and sinks way below the position it would have if properly headspaced. There's no way it would be safe to fire a 9x23 in either of these pistols.

There are .38 Super barrels being made now that are designed to headspace on the case mouth. Perhaps that's what you are referring to. I don't have one of those. What .38 Super barrel are you using?

Thx,
Curl

Click to expand...

My two barrels are later, and both headspace on the case mouth. Both barrels handle .38 Super and 9x23 equally well. That may not be the case for an earlier barrel that headspaces on the semi-rim of the .38 Super case.

I just don't believe what I read here about the warm load not arriving until 1932.

Click to expand...

Facts don't require belief.

This ad DOES mention police officers and personal protection but many of their ads had drawings of bears or mountain lions and the big push was on big game hunting.

Whether Colt had the LE market in mind when they added the .38 Super caliber, I have no idea. I believe that they simply sensed that their old M1902 and M1903 pistols were way past their prime and needed to be replaced with a .38 pistol which was stronger and used a more powerful round than the .38 ACP.

Incidentally Stephen Hunter's hero Earl Swagger, in one of his earlier novels "Havana," uses his .38 Super Colt with great effect. He likes it because it holds 9 rounds.

Well, I don't need much incentive to post a picture of my Colt Commander .38 Super!!!:



I think it is a great cartridge, but I'm not sure if I could only one gun, that I wouldn't choose something different. Fortunately, I won't be choosing anytime soon.

Best Regards, Les

Jeff Cooper in a book from the 60's " Fighting Handguns" mentions it was useful as a trail gun for those who carried an 1911 45 for duty. He also mentioned that when he went of to war in 42 he left 4 1911 magazines fully loaded at home during the whole war (4yrs) and they still worked fine in the 1960's. Just an extra tidbit of info. I also had a 1911 in 38super and really liked it, low recoil and the bullet got to the target like right now.

My very first .38 Super was a Llama "Extra," pretty much a Colt clone. I didn't pay much for it, and eventually sold it maybe 25 years ago, and thereafter wished I hadn't. It was a good gun and I put a lot of rounds through it.

DWalt said:

My two barrels are later, and both headspace on the case mouth. Both barrels handle .38 Super and 9x23 equally well. That may not be the case for an earlier barrel that headspaces on the semi-rim of the .38 Super case.

Click to expand...

DWalt, thanks for that reply. I suspected yours headspaces on the mouth and I wish mine did.

Several years ago I read a comment on the internet somewhere about using 9x23 brass in a .38 Super. On the strength of that comment I ordered up a couple hundred rounds of 9x23 brass. I was quite disappointed when I tried one in my chambers.

I would like to find a good quality drop-in .38 Super barrel that headspaces on the mouth. Anybody know of a good suggestion (inexpensive)?

For those of you who want to try 9x23 in your Super, be sure to check headspace with an empty case before firing.

Since we are showing pictures now, here are mine:

The 1936:



A link to lots of photos: Colt Super .38 Automatic - #21051



The 1948:



And a link to lots of photos: Colt Super .38 Automatic - #63126

If you click on the pictures you get bigger ones.

My very first 1911 style pistol was a brand new Colt .38 Super I bought about 1972. It was a pre-Series 70, a beautiful example. I enjoyed shooting that pistol quite a lot. It would even feed loads I made with 158 grain cast Keith style semi-wadcutters intended for the .357 Mag. Somewhere along the line I traded that pistol off.

Curl