I've often wondered why the Colt .38 Super in the first place, considering hazard when used in the many thousands of their 1900s, 1902s & 1903Hs out in public hands.

Need to perforate car bodies might have been met by a bottle-neck .45ACP to .38 or .40 ACP.

Colt was very adept at hybrid gun re-configuring the 1900s .38 Smokeless series with minimal 1911 change to become the 1905 .45 cal -- so why not just a barrel & mag design change to get more velocity it needed in the hundred-Ks of 1911 WW1 survivors out there.

My suspicion is that Colt Marketing deliberately obsoleted the .38 auto by its same cartridge on steroids, the now dangerous .38 Super wih physical intrchangeability. Same Marketing suspicion Colt avoided the change of cartridge, barrel & mag, a simple conversion of the 1000s of WWI bring-backs that would stymie the sale of 1911s renamed .38 Super.

All this in the 1930s mindset of very few people interested in or equipped for DIY as exists today, recaling a 1930s gunsmith's thrill finally getting a lathe -- even though it was a foot treadle powered one from the 1860s that only turned, no threading ----->

There used to be an excellent website devoted to the .38 Super that has recently closed down. It had articles about loading, performance, and history by a gentleman who had done very scholarly research, with citations regarding his statements, instead of just repeating what gunwriters had repeated (and still do) among themselves. He included original Colt and ammunition companies advertising, American Rifleman reports, etc. You can still get a pretty good picture by reading the Wikipedia entries for both .38 ACP and Super.

In short, there was no velocity difference between the original .38 ACP and what became known as the .38 Super. When Colt first developed the "Super .38" 1911 the cartridge was still known as the .38 ACP for the first couple of years. As with anything humans do. the changes back and forth warrant a whole article; I really wish that website hadn't disappeared.

There is also the fact that civilians in other countries can not own a firearm chambered in a military caliber. 1911 38 Supers were/are very popular in Mexico

The best information is that until 1927, Colt offered two models (the Military Model 1902 and the Pocket Model 1903) in in .38 ACP. At that time Colt felt that these two elderly designs could not be justified to remain in production (sales were very slow at that time) as the M1911 could easily be adapted to fire the .38 ACP, or as Colt called it the ".38 Rimless and Smokeless" cartridge. It was recognized that the M1911 was a much stronger design, fully capable of handling a higher performance cartridge than the two "parallel ruler" design pistols so Colt took the steps to develop one for the M1911, which they called the Colt "Super .38" Automatic Pistol, first released in January 1929. Its MV was given as 1300 ft/sec. Both the Military Model and the Pocket Model in .38 ACP were discontinued in 1927. The M1911 in .38 Super (or Super .38) proved to be popular among law enforcement agencies because of its ability to penetrate car bodies. The real mystery is why Colt kept the M1902 and M1903 pistols in its lineup as long as it did and did not modify the M1911 for .38 much earlier, as it could have easily done.

Ooooo.....I was gonna say that!!!!

If not for those laws, the .38 Super would have slipped away into obsolescence. IPSC resurrected it here in the U.S. with those power factor rules in the '80s. Let's be honest, if it was terrific it would have found room at the popular kids' table along with the 9x19, .45ACP, and .357 Magnum.

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Psalm 27:2

Some years ago Colt put out a 1911 called "El Presidente." IIRC, it was a high-polished stainless steel Government Model in .38 Super, with mother-of-pearl grips, and was made, again IIRC, to recognize the popularity of that caliber in Mexico.

I do not think there is any argument that the 38ACP ammunition of the era was anemic

Personally I see little hazard if you obey the rules. If you own a 38ACP firearm, feed it 38ACP ammo.

I do not pump gasoline into my Diesel Sprinter and I never put diesel fuel in my SUV.

Or are you saying the designer of something needs to guard against user stupidity?


You could obviously make the same argument against the 9x23 Winchester.

After all, externally, it is almost a dimensional copy of the 38ACP/38Super but operating almost 20,000 PSI higher. It will go in the same magazines and chamber in the same firearms

Or the 45ACP/45SUPER relationship

The EL Presidente and all the rest of the EL ?????? series were Lew Horton Exclusives from Colt

There were probably 2 dozen different variations in the EL series

I think I have an EL Jefe some where and I know I have an EL Guapo slide in my workbench

I do appreciate the interests in this post with s bit of new info & much maybe of interest to Colt pre-1911 neophytes. I am probably more up-to-speed on the Colt pre-1911s as anybody. I have done extensive work all the types pictured below --


Of all these I have done simple & major repairs & alteration & assembled 1902s & 1905s from parts I collected --

I'm disappointed ,the aforementioned replies, quite a lot was mentioned about foreign popularity of the .38 Super while my notion of .45-38 or .45-40 was ignored -- likewise Colt Marketing questions.

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad it's here; the .38 Super is my favorite semiauto cartridge. The only one I currently have is my Wilson Combat Classic:

Because it is so cool.

Charlie

I'm not sure why the cartridge's popularity in Mexico comes up in reference to the history or development of the .38 Super. I find no evidence that a Mexican market influenced Colt at all. Julian Hatcher and others bemoaned the fact that there was not a modern pistol (as defined in the early 1920s) shooting the .38 ACP. Colt saw that with minor tweaking they could offer the Model O (1911 platform) in that chambering and not have to invest in new capital equipment to build it. They could then phase out the old pistols/machinery. After it was on the market the Mexicans discovered it.

Also, in the interest of completeness I'll copy what I posted on the Colt Forum:

Colt had little to do with the development of the so-called .38 Super ammo. There is a lot of confusion about this but when they announced the new Super .38 pistol in 1928 and starting shipping in 1929 there was no mention of a new cartridge or higher velocity ammo to go with it. The pistol shot the same .38 ACP ammo as the prior designs. The original spec for that ammo (from 1900) called for a velocity of 1260 FPS from a 6" barrel. Most loadings fell in the range of 1160 to 1280 and Colt's ad for the pistol at the time listed the velocity at 1190 FPS. In late 1932, when Remington introduced their new line of high speed oil proof cartridges they pushed velocity up to 1300 FPS and other ammo companies followed suit. It eventually became apparent that this load was too much for the earlier pistols and the ammo manufacturers began labeling their boxes appropriately. They also loaded .38 Super in nickel plated cases while the old .38 ACP used unplated brass. Colt finally took a position in 1944 that the higher velocity cartridges should be used only in the new Super .38 pistol.

All of this is documented in Sheldon's excellent book, Colt's Super .38. There used to be an excellent website with even more detail and history about the development of the .38 ACP and .38 Super cartridges but it has gone dormant.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

About time we got a picture of one in this thread. Mine is an oddity, that my dad bought from his BIL, my favorite Uncle. I acquired it after Dad passed away in '89, and although it functioned just fine, it was pretty ugly to me (at the time). Nowaday I'm almost wishing I had left it alone, but I was just starting into 1911's, and honestly, it needed work anyway.

My local gunsmith at the time was very knowledgeable about all things 1911. Best he could figure was it might have been a Officers toy, perhaps even his competition gun. (this was his guess, which was way more than I knew or could guess) According to him the slide was quite a bit newer than the 1948 frame, and it had a match grade barrel and other components in it already.

I asked him how it would affect the value if I had it refinished, and he said, "Heck, it's a parts gun already.", so off to the races we went.

It always shot better than I could when I was growing up. And I know that because both my Mom AND Dad shot better than I did with it. And I'd bet Mom could still shoot it good, and she's 80!

All that rambling to say this, I have one, I love it and I wish I had a smaller version of it, maybe a hi-capacity along the lines of my 6094 or something. This is the gun that got me into reloading back then, because ammo was so hard to find, and expensive. (both are still true today locally)

I also wish I had bought one of the El 1911's when my local shop had 2 or 3 of them,....... at $600 bucks! But I thought they were a bit "pimpy". I really enjoy my Super 38!

The buffalo horn grips replaced the faux black pearl Jay Scotts.

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"After all, externally, it (referring to the 9x23mm Winchester) is almost a dimensional copy of the 38ACP/38Super but operating almost 20,000 PSI higher. It will go in the same magazines and chamber in the same firearms."

The 9x23mm Win is a true rimless cartridge, while the .38 Super has a semi-rim. The external dimensions are different in minor ways from the .38 Super as the 9x23mm case has a slight taper. Internally, the 9x23mm case has a higher inside base and will withstand considerably higher chamber pressures than will the .38 Super case, especially in the M1911-style Colt chamber which does not completely support the cartridge base. It absolutely requires the use of a SR primer, never a SP. Nonetheless, the 9x23mm Win cartridge seems to work fine in any M1911-type semiautomatic pistol chambered in .38 Super without modifications, aside from requiring a heavier recoil spring. I also fire 9x23mm Win in my EAA Witness in .38 Super. It is no trick to handload the 9x23mm Win using a 124 grain jacketed 9mm bullet to reach a MV of 1500 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. But I am personally more comfortable keeping the MV in the 1400-1450 ft/sec level or less. I have found that AA#5 is the best propellant for the 9x23mm Win.

There are probably very few who have experimented with the 9x23mm Win to the extent that I have. In fact I even worked closely with Winchester back in the 2005-07 period to develop and evaluate it for use as a possible military round. But that is another story for another time.

"I'm disappointed ,the aforementioned replies, quite a lot was mentioned about foreign popularity of the .38 Super while my notion of .45-38 or .45-40 was ignored"

I suppose that not many prior to the early 1960s gave much thought to necking down the .45 ACP case, as there is little benefit to doing so. There were some non-commercial wildcat loads made by necking down the .45 ACP cases to .38 caliber (the .38/.45 Clerke), and somewhat later the .400 Cor-Bon came along, which was the .45 ACP case necked down to 10mm. Neither approach found great commercial popularity or success. I have also experimented with the .400 Cor-Bon, but never fell in love with it. Its greatest benefit is that only a barrel swap is required to convert any M1911-style .45 pistol to .400 Cor-Bon. If anyone wants a hot 10mm autopistol, then using the factory 10mm round is a better choice (but that caliber never found much success in the marketplace either). Colt also flirted with a 9.8mm round for the M1911 for possible military sale long ago, but the idea never reached fruition.

More info for ahyone interested ---

Colt 1902, 1905 & 1903 Hammer Parts Interchange

I dredged this up from my old files, my experience & may be of interest to some members --- It is a deja-vu from some where before but totall factual in my experience exept as noted --

PARTS INTERCHANGE - Colt 1905 45ACP & 1902/03 38ACP Autos

A simple guide is that parts with dimensions related to caliber; barrel, grip size, trigger, magazine, do not interchange** between the .45ACP cal and the .38ACPs.

With 1902/03 38ACP all internal parts interchange except as noted.

Mainspring, Hammer, Tri-spring, Recoil spring, Sear, Firing pin - all interchange with '05.

Slide Stop fits interchangeably but the 1902 part in the 1905 pistol requires the magazine tab to be bent up a little to engage properly.

Magazine Catch - Interchanges with 1905 & '02 Military. '02 Sporting and '03 use shorter, due same shorter magazine. The difference is only in length of the access which can be cut or lengthened to fit.

1905 trigger, extractor, ejector, do not interchange with 1902/03.

Recoil springs (including 1911) will fit can be installed but probably not of proper weight.

Ejector, '02-‘03 can be installed in '05 with minor modification (not verified as to firing function).

Trigger - 1911 or a '02/03 trigger can be modified to work on the 1905. Not easy but possible.

Takedown buttons differ in length. Basic design is the same but different lengths for each of the 1905, 1902 and 1903 - early and later 1903s differ. Same applies to recoil spring guide.

General Info rather than for interchange, frame width, externally, is the same on both '02/03 and '05. Slide to frame rails fit '02/3 and '05. 1905 slide outside width is about .025 wider than '02/03. A 1905 slide will run on a 1902/03 frame & vice versa

**Disconnector - '02 disconnector works intermittently on '05 but is a bit too long, could easily be modified. The '05 disconnector will be a bit too short, might work but probably unreliably. More investigation needed on this item.

General Notes:
Accuracy of internal machine work, location of holes, etc. on these pistols is of highest order. This allows for the high degree of interchangeability of parts.

Parts for the 1902/03s can usually be found, not quickly but not impossible. 1905 parts are almost non-existent; consequently the inclusion of modification info.

A 1905 I brought back to life --

IMHO the .38 super is a niche gun, but it is not a small niche. It hits harder than a 9mm, shoots softer and carries more rounds than a .45acp. I currently carry a Kmber Ultra Aegis in .38 super much of the time and like it very much.

Development, not at all. As has been noted elsewhere, the cartridge never really took off and what "kept it alive" was use in Latin America (owing to separate but similar national laws against civilian firearms in military chamberings) and later in competitive use here in the States.

Are you stating that the common conception of the development, that it was almost purely intended for law enforcement use to give cops a handgun that could penetrate the body armor and car bodies of the era, is incorrect? I struggle to believe that Colt just up and started making 1911s in .38ACP/Super with no pent-up demand.

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Psalm 27:2

The M1905 Colt was not designed for the later M1911 .45 cartridge. Rather it used a cartridge having a lighter 200 grain bullet at a lower chamber pressure (cataloged as the .45 Colt's Automatic). While post-1911 .45 ACP ammunition can be used in the M1905, sooner or later it will result in cracking of the slide around the barrel wedge at the front of the slide. Use of .38 Super ammunition in the Colt M1902 and M1903 pistols can result in the same slide failure. There is no good way to repair it. I have seen many M1902/03/05 pistols with such slide cracks. I once owned a M1903 in fairly high condition, and I handloaded only lead bullet .38 ACP loads just powerful enough to function its action reliably.

I believe that the development of the .357 Magnum cartridge and revolver for LE use by S&W was a direct competitive challenge to Colt's .38 Super pistol for the LE market, and most certainly negatively affected the future market popularity of the Colt .38 Super. Remember that there were also numerous powerful 9mm cartridges similar to the .38 Super in existence prior to its development. such as the 9mm Steyr , the 9mm Mauser Export, and the 9mm Bergman-Bayard (9mm Largo). And several other 9mm cartridges most have never heard of.

Yes, that is incorrect. Colt advertising and promotional material in 1929 and the early 1930s promoted it for big game hunting and target shooting and never mentions law enforcement at all. The copy usually said "The Ideal "One-hand-gun" for Big Game. Will stop any animal on the American Continent. This new Colt is brought out to meet the demand of the Target Shooter and Big-Game Hunter to handle the powerful .38-caliber Automatic Cartridge."

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

%%%%%

I agree about the 1905 Colt as a convenient way to establish the feasibility of a .45 semi auto toward deveopment of a modern replacement of the unsatifactory .38 revolver. The success was the 1911 after a variety of interim development improve models.

About cracking frames at the muzzle slide lock, I restored two of them by closing the crack mechanically best I could, then ground into the crack deep enuf to get MIG weld all the way thru & put weld in to refit for the cross slide. When near final finish I heated the worked area to a red, finished polish & had it Turnbulls charcoal blue. They cautioned the blue wouldn't hide the weld which was true because I knew where to look but nobody discovered it.

Another similar 1905 was cracked over 1/16", so much an owner had shimmed the forward movement of the side, probably to restore alignment with the disconnector. Same fix.

I had a 1902 with major distress by bubba filing & grinding, about welds to fix. One one I failed to do my red reheat & it was visible but all the others were as above.

My data base is small of about 10 1905s & over 20 .38s & never saw one of them with distress in the muzzle crack area, which leads me to believe the frequent Super caution is overblown -- something like the cautions about +P ammo for business but not for practice ----->

I'm lucky to have a couple of .38ACP's. Sorry for the ****** pic's.

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I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
Only reason it stays a 9mm is the cost of ammo. I reload both but since I seem to loose 10% of the brass, the 9 is shot more.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

As to "why" the .38 Super, I think because J. M. Browning wasn't welded to the .45 Auto as the be-all caliber it has become in post-modern America - not the rest of the world.
In fact, the introduction of the .38 Auto, and later .38 Super would seem to be Browning's answer to the then young, 9mm "Luger" in an existing American platform. Terminal ballistics between the 9mm and .38 Super weren't then, and aren't today that far different. I own both and have found the greatest advantage for the Super to be Underwood ammo, which is about 100 fpe more than the 9mm standard pressure, though +P+ 9mm gets pretty close.
It's worth noting that further along in Browning's firearms development came the Hi-Power, which still today fully competitive with modern 9mm handguns.

From an engineering standpoint, the .38 Super is more reliable in feeding due to the cartridge mid-line sitting closer to the bore axis. Supers tend to be very slick feeders.

IMO, if I'm gonna carry a .38 caliber in a 1911, I might as well favor the Super over the 9mm for a couple of reasons. First, believe it or not, one can fire 9mm ammo from a Super chamber all day including Sunday with no problem...so much for worrying about a supply of scarce Super ammo. Second, the Super CAN be loaded hotter than the 9mm which gives an edge with any bullet style. Third, the Super can be barreled to handle the even more powerful 9x23 Winchester which is basically a true .357 Magnum in an auto pistol.

What with all the fascination of shooting the .357 Remington Magnum from semiautomatic handguns that drives sales of Coonan pistols, people should stop and compare some numbers and realize they can have that in the 9x23. THAT is the caliber that needs to be resurrected in a factory chambering!

Having said all that, the other side of the "why" question comes with the fact that the .40 S&W 165 grain FMJ loads are quite potent, in smaller actions, plus the 10mm is fare more potent in full-size actions.

I don't understand the question? Why the 38 supper over the acp?

Why the 38 supper when there were 1900s? Because know what you have to use! It's like why 357 doesn't fit into a 38spl cylinder! Because someone is going to do something stupid. Otherwise know your gun and what can be used in it. Ammo manufacturers shouldn't be your mommy and daddy. Know what you have

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Get one of each. I have .45 ACP, 38 Super, and 380 magnum, oops, I mean 9mm.

Have wanted a Super for years, as I've somehow accumulated a hodge-podge of 1911's in .22, 9mm, 10mm and several .45's.
My 9mm is an older Colt Commander.

From what I've heard, I can replace barrel and magazine(s) with .38 Super and go. Anyone here ever done this?

Sorry to be O/T some....

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

In south Texas, it's a border thing.

Yes, yes, yes. All you need is a .38 Super barrel and magazine and your 9mm GM becomes a .38 Super GM. Likewise, you can easily convert a .38 Super GM to 9mm in the same way using the same slide. Correct recoil springs are needed. You can also add a .45 slide, barrel, magazine and ejector to a .38 Super or 9mm frame to fire .45 ACP. Or you can convert a .45 frame to 9mm and/or .38 Super. Again with proper slide, magazine, recoil springs and ejector. BTW, if you have a spare 9mm barrel, it can easily be chambered to .38 Super. Add a .22 conversion unit, and you have 4-caliber capability on the same frame. While you can fire 9mm from a .38 Super barrel, I don't recommend it. Likewise, 9mm does not feed reliably from a .38 Super magazine. At least that has been my experience.

I have used such a setup successfully for many years. I am surprised more do not do it. I like the idea of multi-caliber capable guns.

"Third, the Super can be barreled to handle the even more powerful 9x23 Winchester which is basically a true .357 Magnum in an auto pistol."

9x23 Win works fine in a .38 Super chamber and vice versa. I have used the two interchangeably in the same barrel for many years. Some say that can't be done but they are flat wrong. And I use .38 Super reloading dies for both calibers. I have a 9x23 die set but I don't need it or use it.

No use beating a dead horse I heard early in life & I stop beating this one herewith. -- With stated 1930s mind set -- Boiled down to essentials, I was interested in a possible bottlenecked .45AcP to a .45-38 or .45-40 cal to upgrade upgrade 1911 performance by simple replacement of the barrel, rather than upgrade its innards for the .38 Super.

In the scores of responses I saw only one reference the neckdown subject being unpopular in the market place. The rest had some perhaps useful history, periphal info & a huge amount of bloviating scarcely subject related but did have some nice images & interesting dog & pony stories.

I did a google search about bottleneck pistol cartridges & found there is one now in existence, the .400 Cor-Bon, a neckdown of the .45ACP now a lifetime after my wondering about 1930s --

So thanks a lot for keeping me interested in my late 95th year ----->

At one time you could buy .400 Cor-Bon barrels cheaply. I think I paid about $40 for one from eBay. Making brass is simple, just FL size .45 ACP brass in a .400 Cor-Bon die. I have heard you can buy 7.63mm Mauser/Russian barrels for the GM also, but I never saw one. They will fit in a .38 Super magazine but you can load only about 5 rounds before you get interference and jamming problems due to the excessive COAL.

I have formed several hundred .400 Cor-Bon cases. I have fired maybe 500 rounds. For some reason I could never get too excited about that caliber (or the .40 S&W and 10 mm for that matter), but I can't say anything bad either. One thing is that there are never any feeding problems. Any .40 bullets work, but most of those I have loaded use lead bullets.

I personally have a Colt frame which I use for 9mm, .38 Super, .45 ACP, 9x23 Win/Steyr/Largo, .400 Cor-Bon, and .22 LR. It takes only a few minutes to change calibers. It gets the most use for .38 Super.

DWalt, would you please elaborate on this statement? I have two Colts in .38 Super - one pre-WW2, and one from just after WW2. A 9x23 case drops into the chamber and sinks way below the position it would have if properly headspaced. There's no way it would be safe to fire a 9x23 in either of these pistols.

There are .38 Super barrels being made now that are designed to headspace on the case mouth. Perhaps that's what you are referring to. I don't have one of those. What .38 Super barrel are you using?

Thx,
Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

And I think Colt's early ads made it clear that the Super WAS loaded hot from the first. I just don't believe what I read here about the warm load not arriving until 1932.

I can check my copy of Haven & Belden, but think I recall Colt ads in that volume making it clear that the Super was hot at the outset.

I do NOT believe it was especially promoted for target shooting. Accuracy was awful in my .38 Super Match, made about 1936. I sold the gun.

Not until barrels began to be head-spaced on the case mouth was accuracy good.

Today, I won't buy a Super. I'd choose a .357 SIG or rely on Plus P 9mm ammo.

My two barrels are later, and both headspace on the case mouth. Both barrels handle .38 Super and 9x23 equally well. That may not be the case for an earlier barrel that headspaces on the semi-rim of the .38 Super case.

Facts don't require belief.

This ad DOES mention police officers and personal protection but many of their ads had drawings of bears or mountain lions and the big push was on big game hunting.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Whether Colt had the LE market in mind when they added the .38 Super caliber, I have no idea. I believe that they simply sensed that their old M1902 and M1903 pistols were way past their prime and needed to be replaced with a .38 pistol which was stronger and used a more powerful round than the .38 ACP.

Incidentally Stephen Hunter's hero Earl Swagger, in one of his earlier novels "Havana," uses his .38 Super Colt with great effect. He likes it because it holds 9 rounds.

Well, I don't need much incentive to post a picture of my Colt Commander .38 Super!!!:



I think it is a great cartridge, but I'm not sure if I could only one gun, that I wouldn't choose something different. Fortunately, I won't be choosing anytime soon.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Jeff Cooper in a book from the 60's " Fighting Handguns" mentions it was useful as a trail gun for those who carried an 1911 45 for duty. He also mentioned that when he went of to war in 42 he left 4 1911 magazines fully loaded at home during the whole war (4yrs) and they still worked fine in the 1960's. Just an extra tidbit of info. I also had a 1911 in 38super and really liked it, low recoil and the bullet got to the target like right now.

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Well done > well said

My very first .38 Super was a Llama "Extra," pretty much a Colt clone. I didn't pay much for it, and eventually sold it maybe 25 years ago, and thereafter wished I hadn't. It was a good gun and I put a lot of rounds through it.

DWalt, thanks for that reply. I suspected yours headspaces on the mouth and I wish mine did.

Several years ago I read a comment on the internet somewhere about using 9x23 brass in a .38 Super. On the strength of that comment I ordered up a couple hundred rounds of 9x23 brass. I was quite disappointed when I tried one in my chambers.

I would like to find a good quality drop-in .38 Super barrel that headspaces on the mouth. Anybody know of a good suggestion (inexpensive)?

For those of you who want to try 9x23 in your Super, be sure to check headspace with an empty case before firing.

Since we are showing pictures now, here are mine:

The 1936:



A link to lots of photos: Colt Super .38 Automatic - #21051



The 1948:



And a link to lots of photos: Colt Super .38 Automatic - #63126

If you click on the pictures you get bigger ones.

My very first 1911 style pistol was a brand new Colt .38 Super I bought about 1972. It was a pre-Series 70, a beautiful example. I enjoyed shooting that pistol quite a lot. It would even feed loads I made with 158 grain cast Keith style semi-wadcutters intended for the .357 Mag. Somewhere along the line I traded that pistol off.

Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

"I would like to find a good quality drop-in .38 Super barrel that headspaces on the mouth. Anybody know of a good suggestion (inexpensive)?"

It's easy to get a 9mm GM barrel and have it rechambered to either 9x23 or .38 Super if you can't find a factory barrel. Or rent a cutter and do it yourself, simple to do.

From quite a long time ago I dimly remember a friend doing the same thing to what I think was a S&W Model 39 barrel. I have also seen 9mm Tokarevs rechambered to .38 Super.

I can shed some light on the ammunition development from some old Remington ammunition catalogs and price lists.

The 1930 Remington price list shows only one round, called the .38 Colt Automatic. No ballistics provided. Probably what we now know as the .38 ACP.

The 1931-1935 Remington catalogs and price lists show only the ".38 Super Colt Automatic Pistol" cartridge, two loadings (130 grain, FMJ and soft point) with MV of 1300 ft/sec "Adapted to all Colt Automatic Pistols"

The 1936 catalog for the first time shows both the .38 Colt Automatic Pistol (MV = 1050 ft/sec) "Adapted to Colt, Military, and Pocket Model automatic arms" AND the .38 Super Colt Automatic Pistol (same two loadings as shown previously, MV = 1300 ft/sec) for the Colt .38 Super Automatic.

From this, it appears that at least Remington did not begin offering both .38 ACP and .38 Super until around 1935-36.

One other item from my decaying memory bank. I believe the Thompson SMG was also available chambered for the .38 Super, but apparently that idea wasn't too popular.

Some may know that some brands of .38 Super ammunition may chamber in some .38 Special/.357 revolvers, and can be fired in them. I have done that. I emphasize the word "some."

HEREWITH REPEAT of whatever got missed or lost =====>>

Not to rain on the parade I started ---- but --
No use beating a dead horse I heard early in life & I stop beating this one herewith. -- With stated 1930s mind set -- Boiled down to essentials, I was interested in a possible bottlenecked .45AcP to a .45-38 or .45-40 cal to upgrade upgrade 1911 performance by simple replacement of the barrel, rather than upgrade its innards for the .38 Super.

In the scores of responses in three forums I saw only one subject reference the neckdown .357 SIG being unpopular in the market place. The rest had some perhaps useful history, periphal info & a huge amount of bloviating scarcely subject related but did have some nice images & interesting dog & pony stories.

I did a google search about bottleneck pistol cartridges & found there is one now in existence, the .400 Cor-Bon, a neckdown of the .45ACP --- a lifetime after my wondering about 1930s --

So thanks a lot for keeping me interested in my late 95th year ----->

I recall that book and wish I still had my copy.

Jeff also mentioned the Super elsewhere. He used it and a .357, probably a Reg. Magnum, to kill marmots on Western backpacking trips. Said the marmots were quite tasty.

BTW, I think his dad was president of the San Francisco Wine and Food Society, or some such organization. Cooper was one of the more sophisticated gun writers.

I met him only once, but read about all that he wrote for at least 40 years.

The 9m/m round is about as "German" as it gets and most Americans hated them after WWI and then hated the Krauts even more after WWII. We needed our own mid-size auto loader round, and in the "true American way" we made it a little more powerful also.

Curl-

How do your Super pistols shot? I was VERY disappointed with my Super Match (fixed sights) made about 1935-36.

I couldn't get a decent group, even when firing at 50 yards bullseyes at just 25 yards. My 9mm and .45 pistols have shot far better

That was typical back at the time that the cartridge headspaced on the semi-rim rather than on the case mouth, which is how Colt made it for many years. Some target shooters who favored the .38 Super were using custom-chambered barrels long before Colt itself did. It's a mystery why Colt did not change that until much later. My .38 Supers (with case mouth headspace) group as well as any other caliber. And there is much accurizing work that is necessary to get any stock GM to keep all shots in the black, no matter what the caliber. There is nothing inherently inferior about the .38 Super cartridge to make it any less capable of good target performance vs. the .45 ACP, it's all in the gun.

Have you checked The Wayback Machine? It at archive.org. Could be they snagged the website contents before it shut down.

This is a well-reasoned piece on the history of the 38 Super Auto that really doesn't conflict with anything already posted, and may summarise it all nicely:

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/38-super/

This point was a standout for me, as being consistent with its eventual use by Texas Rangers and all other agencies concerned with the rise of both the Mob and the Model T:

It was powerful, at least more-so than most other handgun calibers of the early 1900s. In the first few decades of the 20th century, your choice of handguns was mostly limited to big, heavy, slow moving bullets like the .45 ACP, or small slow moving bullets like the original standard pressure .38 Special. The .38 Super was one of the first handgun cartridges that relied on velocity, rather than size, to get results.

A .45 ACP will work against vulnerable, squishy targets like the enemies of the US military, but it’s not known for its penetrating power. A 130 grain bullet from a .38 Super travels at over 1300 fps, and could penetrate the ballistic vests and car bodies of the 1930s. You might think a cartridge like that would have been a dream come true for law enforcement stuck in the arms race of the violent depression/prohibition-era gang violence. And it might have been, had the .38 Super not been completely overshadowed by the arrival of .357 magnum in 1934.

I only pay attention to these things, because as a holstorian they affected what pistols had holsters made for them. So the reasons for the switches from SAAs to 38 Supers to N frames to K frame magnums to 1911s to Glocks are relevant for me.

I would expect that Colt's advertising, would be targeted, as the one posted in this thread is: when in sporting mags, tell 'em it's a sporting pistol, when in police or military mags, tell 'em it's just for them.

"It is generally held" (which doesn't mean it's fact) that the 'pent up demand' for the high velocity, small caliber .38 Super Auto cartridge was the body armour and automobiles of the mob, things that the .32, the .38, the .38 Spl, the .45 LC, the .44 WCF -- simply weren't designed to deal with; and they didn't (deal with them).

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The Holstorian

Because it has a certain je ne sais quois the 9mm doesn’t have. I have the best of both worlds, a DW Specialist with 9mm and .38 Super barrels. What a cream puff to shoot. It’s also part of my ccw rotation.

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