Question for those much wiser than me. I looked at an engraved Winchester Model 63 today. The engraving was very well done with a rabit engraved on one side and a coyote on the other with of course other patterns around them. The quality of work looked factory to me. The wood on the gun was very nice but not stunning from what I recall. Wondering if there is a easy way to tell if the engraving is factory and value seems to be all over the place on what I could find on the interweb. Thoughts???

Engraving is never done by a factory. It is done by a person. That person might work at a factory or he might not. A factory is only going to employ engravers that are at least reasonably skilled. You can expect at least a certain level of quality. A non factory engraved gun does not have that minimum standard and could have been done by anybody.

Problem is that there are not many people that do hand engraving and every year there are a few less. The factories have had to lower their standards over time just to have any engraver at all and prices are going up.

Values are all over the place because the skill level of engravers is all over the place. Bad engraving drops the value of a gun. Even the factory will offer different levels of engraving at different prices. But the top engravers don't work at factories. You will likely have to sell your house to pay some of them.

Factory engraving just sets a certain minimu, standard. Pretty much. Non factory engraving could be a mess that cuts the value in half. Or it could be a $250,000 job that is blow your mind incredible.

Here is an example of an 1890 NIB in its original shipping crate. IIRC it is a factory #8 engraving pattern. Nothing to knock your socks off, but it sold for $15k 10 yrs ago.

Charlie

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mom's 2010 024.jpg (216.8 KB, 88 views)

Photos would be a big help here. Someone here will probably recognize the pattern or style if it was factory commissioned.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It's probably the factory #8 pattern or close to it.
The original pattern had 3 rabbits on the rt side in a scene and 2 squirrels on the left side in an oval scene. Scroll engraving coming off of that .
A few touches of scroll added here and there.
The pattern was a popular one and could be ordered engraved on just about any Winchester of any period.
Small changes were made to the scenes sometimes and changes in what critters were depicted,,all at the customers demands.
Other 'factory' patterns were available and all had a #8 assigned to them. The checkering patterns likewise with several to choose from and numbers ID'g each.
Custom work beyond that was of course available and the limit only being the customers ability to pay.

The M63 (and 62 and 61 pumps) were all there to be available with special order engraving from the factory.

However, very, very few were ever done as a 'factory engraved' piece.

That from collectors that have been in the game since forever and from those that had worked in the Winchester factory and Custom Shop over the many years. Including the engravers themselves.

My opinion is there are far more Model '03 semi auto factory engraved Winchester rifles about than factory engraved Model 63 Winchesters.
Same with Mod 1890/90 pump vs Model 62/62A.

Even then, the originality is the speculation of those 'experts' that examine it. Many don't have the first clue about engraving but yet proclaim work to be so&so's or someone other,, and what day of the week they worked on the gold rabbit.

All were available in unengraved Deluxe versions (Fancy walnut, checkered stocks) but the earlier models, 1903 and 1890/90 again far out number those plain (unengraved) Deluxe editions of the 63,62,61.

There are no Factory records available on the Model 63. (or 61 or 62/62A)
So they are a clean field so to speak.
I will tell you straight up that there are arm loads of aftermarket upgraded 63,62,61,1890/90 Winchesters around.
Aftermarket engraved with factory patterns, many with the animals done in gold inlays. Upgraded fancy wood, checkering,ect, ect.
Even complete w/ a Winchester factory box and paperwork, tags, manual, ect.,,none which are usually original.

Thanks all, great info you have provided. I will try and get some pictures this morning. The #8 pattern you guys have mentioned is different from what I recall, but you know how "recall" works. The big difference was the style of the coyote on the right side as it was looking forward not with it's neck extended like I have seen. I believe the guy was asking $1700 for the piece and I am not sure the gun was pristine. I've seen prices all over from a quick google search.

Here's some pics from my phone at the show. I should add that the wood on the gun is worse than average, which doesn't make much sense with the engraving.

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	IMG_3611.jpg (109.6 KB, 64 views)
	IMG_3612.jpg (105.9 KB, 53 views)
	IMG_3613.jpg (109.0 KB, 57 views)

Not what i have seen before, but I like it. alot.

Charlie

After market engraved. It doesn't really follow any of the factory patterns that were around. But custom engraving was available too..

The animal scenes look more finely cut and detailed than the scroll work IMO. Something you don't generally see. Usually the opposite.
A factory engraved gun would be a 'Deluxe Grade'. As such would have at least hand checkering , pistol grip cap, jeweled bolt. Usually extra fancy walnut or even other species wood was the pick. ,,Unless the customer didn't order any,,which is an easy way to explain away any question of why such a full engraved factory job would have such plain wood, no checkering, ect. Sorry no factory records to say otherwise.

Collectors call the rifles a Plain Deluxe if they have non-fancy wood (plain wood) but the deluxe features of grip cap and jeweled bolt.
There's so few real Deluxe and engraved Factory 63 and other 22 Winchesters around, I think the collectors may have gone to creating some of the terms to try & describe them

The proof marks are usually hint of wether the engraving is aftermarket on a job like this.
The full coverage on the rec'vr was worked around the existing proof mark on the top of the frame.
If done at the factory, the entire gun would have been brought to the engraver before proof marks had been added, though the gun would have had a proofing session to affirm it's status.
Then the engraving and final finish (blue, plating, whatever) would be completed.
The W/P proof marks then added to the final blued/plated and finished gun after perhaps another trip through the range.
The proofs on a full engraving job can sometimes be rather crudely stamped right over and into the existing engraving like it was 'in the way'.
Or sometimes the proofs are moved to one side or the other slightly to take advantage of a blank area on both bbl and rcv'r. They did want them to line up on both bbl & frame as a rule.

The above is an easy way to spot upgraded Model 12 and Model 42 shotguns. Anything above the #1 pattern (IIRC) has bbl engraving at the breech and with a vent or solid rib on the gun the proof marks are off to the left side. That's right where the wedge of scroll work on the bbl is placed.
On most upgrades, the original proof mark is simply engraved around and ends up sitting neatly inside the scroll work as above.
On a factory gun, they didn't proof mark them before engraving,,the engraver did their thing, then the proof mark added.
In these cases the Proof mark was then applied outside of the engraving pattern. Usually just forward of the wedge of scroll work.
The bbl choke markings on that side are also a hint as they were moved foreward for the same purpose of allowing the engraving to fit in that space.

But, W/P proof mark punches can be made. Old marks can be removed and new ones relocated to wherever they are needed ,,and so even if it looks 'correct',,there's nothing that says it really is.

As always,,the Proof Mark punch stamping should be 'through' the blue or plating. Not underneath it.
So it can and usually does slightly break the surface of the finish when applied and should be sharp and the surrounding metal around it's edge disturbed and moved upwards just slightly.
This goes for any Mfg or Proof House I can think of.

I've never seen a factory engraved Winchester with standard grade wood. I'd walk...

__________________
"I also cook."

Thanks everyone. As usual, the amount of wisdom on all things guns around this forum is astounding. I greatly appreciate those of you that took the time to reply.