Another Unusual Find...

While perusing one of my favorite LGSs this morning, I found a rather unusual handgun. It is an ITM Solothurn AT84S, a Swiss-made CZ-75 clone, complete with two original mags (only one shown in the photo below in the gun, the others are Mec-Gar CZ Mags), the instruction book, certificate of authenticity, and plastic case. Also included, though I'm certain is not original to the kit, an old Glock mag loading tool. I couldn't find a lot of info online about them, as it seems they are a bit rare. The following is what I could find:

ITM Solothurn produced these clones from 1984 to 1988, when an upgraded model, the AT88 was released. The guns were imported into the US in the 80s and early 90s by Action Arms, hence why their name is on the instruction book and plastic case. ITM was either bought out by, or became Sphinx in the early 90s going on the produce some of the best competition pistols available today. I am led to believe that the AT84S and the AT88 are early iterations of the Sphinx AT2000, introducing some of the design features that would become endemic with Sphinx's offerings today.

I am not one to shy away from odd firearms, having had a few other CZ clones before, including a Tanfoglio TA95, a really similar pistol in a lot of ways, and it was a laser. From the little I could find and have read, these guns are considered to be of top quality, possibly higher in quality than a genuine CZ. The fit of this one is definitely tighter than any CZ 75, or clone I've owned before, yet still very smooth. The finish is not what I would consider perfect (i.e. some rough machining internally), however it is done right in the areas where its needed. The trigger feels excellent, at least as good as real CZ75, maybe just a touch lighter. The bluing has faded a little bit, and has started to discolor in a couple spots though I would expect this on a pistol this old. I also want to note that, although I have not shot it yet to make full confirmation, contrary to reports elsewhere online CZ 75B mags seem to be a perfect fit for the AT84S, both locking into the mag release, and activating the slide stop.

The really surprising thing about this pistol is that the only other one I have been able to find listed for sale currently is on gunbroker, and has an opening bid of $1800 on it, and a buy it now for $2800. I didn't pay anywhere near that price for this gun, and older listings from around the net, going back to 2008, show pricing between $500-$800 for the gun only. That said, the question here is: Did I win the proverbial lottery on this gun?

Range report to follow ASAP...

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That’s a piece of cool history. I had one myself for a while. Quality is decent, but it’s the history I liked the most about it.

Sphinx bought ITM and turned the AT84S into a very high quality CZ clone in the Sphinx AT2000S. Sphinx is an old company, but that’s how they got started in the firearms business.

Can't say if you won the lottery or not but you for sure got a very nice pistol for your money. I've got a lot of old Gun Digest and recall seeing these listed back in the day. Congratulations.

Here’s my Sphinx AT2000S.

This is what Sphinx turned the AT84S into. It’s one of the highest quality guns I own. Outstanding fit and attention to detail.

The ITM guns were excellent. I would have bought that package in a heartbeat if it was found for under $1000. I think the Gunbroker listing is pretty optimistic, you could probably find an early short rail, non import marked CZ75 for that kind of coin.

Update:

I took a short trip over to the range last night to try out the AT84S. I fired 150 rounds of Remmington UMC through it, and the results are posted below. The first is a group of 13 rounds, the second is a group of 10, both shot at 8 yards or so. For the most part, she groups nicely, though I'm no expert marksman, and let a couple drift out of each group. Both groups shown, as well as nearly every other group I shot tended to hit a bit high, a little left of center. The low POA doesn't bother me at all, as it's almost a 6 o'clock hold, similar how I keep my revolvers and my Norinco TT Olympia sighted. The left of center may be a result of my right hand/left eye dominance (I'm really left handed, though handguns get fired from the right hand, rifles from left shoulder), as switching eyes seemed to help change the POI a bit. I am not however ready to rule out the ammo as part of the equation, having shot a H&K P30 recently with the exact same ammo from very same bulk pack yielded the same leftward POI, where other brands tended to hit more centered at the same distance despite my cross eyed shooting. I'm heading back to the range today to try some Blazer or American Eagle in it to see if there's a difference.

On another note, with regards to the use of CZ mags in the AT84S, yes they seem to work, but unreliably, though again, this may have to do with ammo more than the mags, I'm not yet sure... I found that with the factory mags the gun functioned nearly flawlessly, with a single hang-up toward the end of my shooting time. The use of Mec-Gar CZ mags seemed to produce consistent FTEs, at least one per mag. A couple possibilities as to why exist in my mind, one is a stronger mag spring that is pushing the next round up faster than the chambered shell can extract, and getting stuck, or more likely, the Mec-Gar CZ mags have an extra tab that sticks up at the front of the magazine that the ITM stock mags do not, and this tab maybe causing the spent case to get stuck and the extractor to lose its grip on the rim. Oddly though, the mags just seem to work properly when clambering the first round and actuating the slide stop after the last, and I see no signs of hang-up or impact on the front of the tab to really solidify this theory. Again, this may be ammo related, or perhaps the gun needs a new extractor or extractor spring. More testing is needed to determine.

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Those are fairly rare items. The parts came from Tanfoglio, they are closest to the Series 88 TZ-75 and Springfield Armory P9.

The Sphinx 2000 took the design to a new level and dropped the CZ-75/Browning style of radial barrel locking lugs in favor of the Sig P226 squared chamber area that locks into the slide's ejection port.

stansdds said:

The Sphinx 2000 took the design to a new level and dropped the CZ-75/Browning style of radial barrel locking lugs in favor of the Sig P226 squared chamber area that locks into the slide's ejection port.

Click to expand...

The Turks went the same way with the SAR K2 45. In my review of that gun I described it as what happens if you leave a CZ-75 and a Sig P220 together in a drawer over night.

I had a couple of those but, regretfully, sold them to fund other pistols. Awhile ago I read there was a heat treating problem which left some of the internals soft and supposedly wore quite quickly, cannot vouch for that though.

I don't know about the Swiss made pistols, but some of the early production TZ-75 pistols, the ones made before the introduction of the Series 88 TZ-75, did have soft slides.

Perhaps you did win the Lottery, but don't know if I'd shoot it much. I bought a new AT84S when they came out. Something, can't even remember what now, broke soon after I began using my new pistol. Whatever broke must have been pretty significant because the dealer was able to get the importer to replace it with a new gun. The original broke so soon, that I didn't trust that the replacement would be any more durable. I let the dealer keep and sell the replacement for me so I could recoup the purchase price. Best of luck with yours, mine may have just been a late Friday afternoon gun and not indicative of the quality of AT84S production overall....

Update again...

So, after another round of shooting, I have ruled out the mags as the cause of my extraction problem, and after a bit of research have found the FTE problems are a common problem on CZ 75s and clones by the nature of the design. As such, the common remedy is to up the strength of the extractor spring to give it some more holding power, and that is exactly what I plan to do. I have an order in with Wolff Springs for an extra power extractor spring, along with a new recoil spring as well, and hopefully that will take care of the problem.

The thing I noticed on my last trip to the range that ultimately had me looking at the extractor specifically was a degrading of function the more I shot it, even with the factory mags. Along with that, the last round in each mag would not eject 90% of the time as well. This lead me to do some research, and led to a myriad of similar problems with all types of CZ 75s and clones, describing the same issues.
Additionally, I found that when trying to clear the jam, I could not drop the slide onto the chambered empty case, and get the extractor to grab, apparently by the nature of the extractor claw's design, but could rather easily manipulate the extractor claw with my thumb to catch the case as I pushed the slide forward. This would suggest a weak spring, as with nearly every other pistol I've owned, the extractor has proven uncomfortably difficult to manipulate by hand.

I should have the new springs in a few days, and then can try this again.

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Mainegrw, Reference problems with the original CZ75s, I had two Pre B CZ75s and a 75B Retro model. None would allow the slide to be closed on a round in the chamber due to the extractor design. All were boringly reliable though, with all of the many kinds of factory ammo used, and my own reloads. All were stock,with factory extractors, springs, etc. Hope you can get yours sorted out. They appear to have the potential to be good, reliable, guns.

BTW, good you ruled out magazines as causing the extraction problem. Once the magazine has successfully fed the round into the chamber, the magazine's work is done.