Winchester Model 12 - A Question for the Experts

Looking at a Winchester Model 12, 12-gauge riot gun, 20-inch barrel, supposedly all original. The barrel is properly marked CYL.

The serial number puts its manufacture around 1958.

Problem is...there's no serial number on the barrel/magazine tube assembly.

To the best of my knowledge, all Model 12s are takedown models, which is why the guns have the serial number in two places.

Plus, again to the best of my knowledge, Model 12 barrels have the year stamped on the bottom of the barrel between it and the magazine tube. So this one should have the number 58 on it. Yet the owner says it doesn't.

So. I'm interested in any opinions/facts anyone has to offer. A photograph is below.

I'll add that I have other photos, and that something doesn't look "quite right", but I simply can't put my finger on what it might be. Possibly something about the juncture of the receiver and the barrel/magazine tube assembly?

Thanks for your time.

I first thought it was a Model 25 then saw the TD arrow,,duh...and read the original post again.

I think the mag and bbl assembly are probably a parts put together and added to the receiver.
The TD arrow looks a little weak (polished over), but a nice looking job and a nice blue.

Not any wear on the mag assembly to match the wear on the recv'r.
In '58 Winchester was using Du-Lite hot salt blue for their general production bluing. This M12 recv;r , bbl extension, mag tube, bbl and small parts included.
But the bbl extension along with showing no wear at all to match the recv'r it is supposedly 'original' to,,also has a bluing color that does not match the color of the recv'r.
Age, wear, handling can all effect the color, as can heat treat of the steels used. But the difference is brilliance and just the color shade of the blue itself make me think the bbl extension is a more recent hot salt blue. A different commercial salt may have been used. Even if the same DuLite used,,it is very tough to exactly match colors and wear. Especially when held so closely side by side as this.


Numrich at one time offered up lots of NOS Model 12 riot bbls along with the other magazine parts, forends and bbl extensions (un-numbered.)
Some of the small parts were still in the white,,some factory blued.

The bbls that Numrich bought (from Winchester?) may have been from production times when the date stamp was not applied to the bottom.
That 2 digit stamp was phased out of use at one point altogether and sometimes wasn't used at times at all for what ever reason during regular production.

Maybe 'seconds or reject bbls' that didn't deserve the date stamp for use in the factory and made their way out the back before being scrapped.,,who knows,,

The Bbl extension that the ser# got hand stamped on was fitted and done while in the white at the factory.
The only other explanation for the missing number would be a complete assembly with a mis- matched number.
The old number belt polished off (they are quite lightly stamped so as not to deform the part) and then it was just left that way and blued.
No attempt to 'fake' a factory riot gun by re-applying the matching ser number in it's place from the recv'r.
I'd give the person who did the work some credit at least for that much, if that was the case!

A few different ways it could have come to be in that condition and with those features.
Just my thoughts.

2152hq:

Thank you so much for your input.

I just deleted everything I said in reply to your post. I'd originally decided someone had installed a Model 25 Receiver Extension on a Model 12 receiver, when I realized that I, too, had overlooked the TD arrow. So duh on me, too. So I'm gonna go along with your theories as to why there's no serial number.

I was obsessing over this. Geez. I'm not gonna buy the thing, anyway.

Nice looking shotgun, I have a 20 and 16 gauge, they are great shotguns. I've had the 20 gauge since October 1963, 55 years ago. I wish I had a 12 gauge. That one would make a great house gun.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

Winchester offered complete "front ends" to field repair stations, that were intended to be numbered to the receiver when they were fitted. Model 12s required a whole new assembly to change barrels from say 26 inches for quail, to 30 inches for waterfowl.

What I can see of the forearm in the picture looks like the smaller forearm, that I believe was no longer in use by the mid fifties. It is hard to tell, but that's how it looks to me.

Also, from my understanding, an extra barrel assembly that was purchased with the gun would have the same serial number on both assemblies. If it had been returned to the factory, it would not have a serial number on the second set, although it would have been fitted.

I'm not a model 12 guy, I'm a model 97 guy. On take down guns the barrel assemblies are interchangeable.

But both guns were made in take-down and ridged frame models. The 97 Trench Guns of WW I fame were always solid frame to support the bayonet. The "Riot" guns were available either way. But most were solid frame because of less cost. A factory short barreled take down model is a Grouse Gun. Some police departments did buy takedowns (usually from local stores, not from the factory).

My 1904 take down 97, has a front half with the number scratched removed. Most likely from a "Homer" repair. Before they went exclusively to Remington 870's, In the 1960's thru 1980's, armorers at Columbus, Ohio PD used to fit the barrels to actions (or take down front ends) to come up with any combo they needed, "Homers" would just swap front ends!

Personally, I love the short barreled take down versions! There are not a lot pump shotguns the fit in a small 2 suite Samsonite Suitcase!

Ivan

Ole Joe Clark said:

Nice looking shotgun, I have a 20 and 16 gauge, they are great shotguns. I've had the 20 gauge since October 1963, 55 years ago. I wish I had a 12 gauge. That one would make a great house gun.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

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Well, I passed on buying this one. But I do still have two 12-gauge factory riot guns...one from 1941 and the other from 1951. Used to have one stamped "Washington State Patrol" on the receiver, but foolishly sold it.

I'm always looking for them, always looking at them whenever they come up for sale.

The Model 12 isn't referred to as "The Perfect Repeater" for nothing.

It is the perfect repeater, and was a terrific trap gun in its day. Unfortunately over time they have become very expensive to repair, and in spite of the ability to adjust the take down they do not last forever. I wore out two (they were not new to begin with) to the point where it was not feasible to have them rebuilt. I don't think I have ever shot as well with any other trap gun.

bigolddave said:

It is the perfect repeater, and was a terrific trap gun in its day. I don't think I have ever shot as well with any other trap gun.

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I've mentioned this before. I used to do a lot of crow hunting back in the seventies. Almost every weekend, it seemed. Most of the time, I used a Model 12 with a 28-inch barrel choked modified. My memory might be a bit off on the barrel length...it could have been a 26-inch.

I'd down crows and ask myself, "How did I make that shot?" The only thing I could figure out was that the gun was such a natural pointer for me with its factory length of pull and drop at comb, it made it easy to use.

That ol' gun made me look good, better than I really was.

bulletslap said:

Winchester offered complete "front ends" to field repair stations, that were intended to be numbered to the receiver when they were fitted.

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Really? I had no idea. I sure wouldn't mind running across a few of those "front ends" squirreled away in some old LGS's back room.

I also love all my m-12's...still shoot several of them, and shoot sx-1, sx-2's....sx-1 points like the old 12

Babysitr said:

I also love all my m-12's...still shoot several of them, and shoot sx-1, sx-2's....sx-1 points like the old 12

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The SX-1, Winchester's best automatic. The M-12, Winchester's best pump.

Babysitr said:

I also love all my m-12's...still shoot several of them, and shoot sx-1, sx-2's....sx-1 points like the old 12

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HenryT said:

The SX-1, Winchester's best automatic. The M-12, Winchester's best pump.

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Not being a big fan of autoloaders (except for the old Remington Model 11), I'm not too familiar with the SX-1. Autoloaders seem so complicated to me, for lack of a better word.

But there's a really good article on it that you can read by clicking here.

The article sort of opened my eyes about this shotgun, and I may have to look deeper into it. And if does, indeed, point like the Model 12, that's a major point in its favor (no pun intended).

I don't know what I'd actually do with one, mind you, since I no longer hunt...but it might be nice to have one.

I had M12s but never with extra barrel assembly numbered to the gun.
I did have a 97 , 12g that had factory extra assembly. In fact it was a older model marked 1897.

I've had m25s too. Never had to fool with one but I always thought it was
a solid frame m12.

I have one of the original Model 1912s in 20 gauge (from early 1913). The earliest Model 1912s were in 20 gauge only, as other gauges did not appear until 1914. Mine had the 2-1/2" chamber but I lengthened it to take 2-3/4" shells. Only problem is that it is impossible to eject fired Federal plastic shells - you have to pry them out of the opening. Both Remington and Winchester shells eject OK as their plastic cases are slightly shorter.

DWalt said:

I have one of the original Model 1912s in 20 gauge (from early 1913). The earliest Model 1912s were in 20 gauge only, as other gauges did not appear until 1914. Mine had the 2-1/2" chamber but I lengthened it to take 2-3/4" shells. Only problem is that it is impossible to eject fired Federal plastic shells - you have to pry them out of the opening. Both Remington and Winchester shells eject OK as their plastic cases are slightly shorter.

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As I stated earlier, I would like to have a 12 gauge in the Model 12, but I have a weakness for 20 gauges of almost any kind. Had my 20 ga Model 12 since October 1963.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

Watchdog, you'll never be unhappy with how a SX-1 shoots. the one pictured is a trap/skeet version as seen with scroll on receiver and beavertail forearm, somewhat more desireable. keep the gas system clean and normal maintenance, they shoot forever. still bangin' away with my first one from 11/76. others still faithful also

That front end has not been with the receiver for its entire life. No serial on the front end alone is enough for anyone wanting a genuine article to politely pass on. Collector value is nill but its still worth 4-5 hundred for a nostalgic house gun.