Hey, have recently purchased a Walther PPK in .32 ACP. It's not a PPK/S. It only has what I think are date marks on it. No Proof Marks at all. Date is 863, I take that to be August 1963, stamped twice on Frame, and twice on Slide. It's a Walther Ulm gun. Why no Proof Marks?

Serial Number 234xxx, no letter K, or anything else.

Any Walther experts on here for this thing, that I just don't seem to be able to look up anywhere?

Thanks,

Joe Canuck
.

I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but try asking the folks on the Walther Forums.

They're snobs, but they tend to know their stuff, at least when it comes to older/European PP Series pistols.

That said, a few of their better, non-snobby users are also regulars here, so if you stick around long enough one is bound to show up and help you.

IIRC My 1966 made PPK has an elk horn proof mark on the frame and barrel with two digit 66 date stamp below it.

That is a strange one then. ?

Even my “clandestine” Suncoated British Army L66A1 has proof
marks. Maybe you have a more “clandestine” Walther?
Bond, James Bond or something like that. Or it never got proofed for some reason.

Funny thing is, We/Us/You/Me are the MOST accused of being snobbish according to the “other” forums. All of us know this is NOT the case.

Jim

Attached Images

9BF7DF5A-1B45-4B56-96A4-6E38D1564A83.jpg (56.9 KB, 108 views)

My first thought would be the country it was sold to does not require any proofing. However that might just be too simple

I like the Walther PP family of pistols, I have ever since Connery was forced to take one to replace his Beretta. Though all of mine are either 380ACP or 22LR

I was actually shooting my newest PPK/s yesterday. I picked this one up last year specifically to use suppressed.
I had thought of having several of my 22 Walthers ghost threaded, but for what it would have cost to do that to two of my firearms I was able to buy the current PPK/s in nickel with some cash left over

Now here is part of my Walther family

Here is my fancy one I had the engraving done a few yeas ago when I got an unexpected bonus check. I want to have a blue one done with some nice gold line work, I just do not have another unexpected bonus on the way. At least not that I knoe of

This might be my oldest oneIt is in great shape. I have only shot it once myself

This is the one in the best conditionI found this in a small town Pawn Shop in the middle of Florida. The old coup-le that owned the shop were not computer savvy and their kids and grand kids had no interest in the Pawn business. So none of their stuff was on the internet. I got a smoking deal on this one and bought a S&W 18 also in the box (but not this clean)

As to the ugly ones and the most used ones and the other ons, I do not have those photographed.

I did recently acquire one of the DDR copies of the PPK chambered in 22LR. While not in perfect condition and refinished on Armoloy or some other electroless finish I purchased it quite cheap. The refinisher had lost one of the trigger bar pins and it was not functioning correctly. $11.87 shipped for the replacement parts and all is well

I had no idea these East German Walthers existed before finding this one.

No proof marks has me thinking it is a "employee discount" Lunch Box Special Look it over carefully before you shoot it! Kyle

I’d really like to see some photos. These “date marks” aren’t standard and “863” is not the way a date of manufacture would be marked on any Walther/Ulm pistol.

The post-war serial 234xxx puts production in 1968/69. It should have the Ulm antler proof with a 68 or 69 in front, if it is a regular-production gun with all original parts.

We recently had a Walther thread and no one could tell me the model of the PPK-like gun made FOR WALTHER by FEG in Hungary.

I've since found a photo. Model is PPK/E.

I hope that interests someone.

I collect stainless Walther pistols. I have 2 PPK, a PPK/S, and a TPH. None have been shot, except for the test shot at the factory. I think they are the most beautiful pistols ever made. All are .380, except for the TPH which is .22lr.

My guess there were a lot of us bitten by the "Bond; James Bond" bug growing up............ "hits like a brick through a glass window"

I've had 5 over the years my first was a PPK/s in .380..... replaced it with a Interarms stainless .380 PPK cus hey I had the bug bad in the 80s. Sparks Summer Special and a shoulder holster with spare mag on the off side.......

A blue German .22 PP ....... that I sadly traded away for something else...

About 10 years ago came across a 'unused" blue .380 PPK still in it's box........priced right it came home with me and remains "unused"

Two years ago added another PPK/s in .32apc ......at $375 with 4 mags couldn't leave it behind.

Maybe I'm just old and have seen too many Bond movies........ but IMO a PPK is small enough and at 22oz not too heavy to carry all day. With today's .380 ammo ; a PPK good to go for a '' personal-defense gun" in my Burb of the Burgh!

I bought a PPK back in 1967. ever fired it. Still in box with extra mad and test target. I've looked at it every year lubed it and put it away. Bought it for my wife but she had no interest in shooting it.

You still have it? Since it should be in the OP‘s pistol‘s neighborhood, you could be of some help here if you posted a few photos of the proofs and their locations, so everybody knows what we‘re talking about and what a “normal” PPK of that time frame should show.

How about giving us some nice close up pictures? That would help greatly.

Difference is, that's probably coming from folks who were exposed to more of the vocal minority of users who bellyache over internal locks/MiM parts all day and can't resist posting in any given thread about new S&Ws about how they don't make 'em like they used to and how they would never buy a newly manufactured S&W.

Sadly, the snobs on the Walther Forums are the vocal majority, not a minority. The minority on the Walther Forums are those who actually like new Walther products.

Had a puter meltdown a short while ago, had to import PPK pics from various sources, first time posting pics in a thread, hope it works, question is, why no proof marks?

Thanks to all who have chimed in.

Joe Canuck
.

PPK pics with no proof marks, I hope

Mine is in .32acp(sorry ''purists'' 7.62)and was issued to a policeman in 1962.Still got the original box and test target.After sitting 30 or so years in my saferoom,I started reloading and shooting it.While I won't be shooting 150rds in a session with it,I must admit that for spitting poodle pills at 850 fps towards a 15yds target,it is kind of fun.And I reckon it is more accurate than I thought such a small gun could be.

Here's my 7.65 PPK.... All James Bond aficionados need one of these....

Has a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window:



Best Regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

My prewar PP in 7.65mm shot VERY well at 25 yards. It did jam a few times, and an article by a German in G&A said that in West German trials, PP & PPK guns jammed an average of one in 50 shots. That's not good enough to defend my life. My guns are not safe queens

I sold the PP and bought a M-34 Beretta .380. Never jammed, but had a very heavy trigger pull. It wasn't as accurate as the Walther, but the hard trigger was probably half of the problem. And it'd still fire a magazine into a group that I could usually cover easily with my hand at 25 yards. That's about as far out as I expected to use it.

Finally have pics here I hope. Note no proof marks. Yes, I have field stripped it, can't find any hidden ones either. I have 2 books on proof marks, can't find anything like what I actually have stamped on the gun.

Any ideas?

Attached Images

	P1120408(1).JPG (76.5 KB, 85 views)
	P1120409(1).JPG (98.1 KB, 77 views)
	P1120411(1).JPG (68.0 KB, 73 views)
	P1120412(1).JPG (118.9 KB, 73 views)
	P1120413(1).JPG (74.3 KB, 66 views)

That's why I stayed here with my questions. This place has been most helpful. As I own several Brand X types, I figured that the S&W crowd here also does.

That's certainly a possibility, this one just doesn't fit any mold that I've been able to find.

Joe, there are a bunch of pretty good guys over at the Walther forum, including (blush) myself and quite a number of guys that belong on this forum, further including some who have posted on this page!! (But far be it from me to "out" them!!).

I belong over there, (I'm les.b there as well), but since I only have a few Walthers, I'm not there very much. But.....if we can't figure this out here, maybe you should consider having some of their experts weigh in...but if you do, and find out anything, be sure and let us know...I for one am sure curious!!

I like 4T5GUY's theory, that this was issued by some clandestine outfit!! That sure adds to the mystique!!

Best Regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Pics are posted.

Notice the difference in the style of the numerals between the frame and slide? Perhaps a replacement for the original that was damaged beyond repair. Would like to see a picture of the other side of the slide.

I have some more theories about this gun, but don't want to skew the opinions I get here. Note the same marks on the frame on this side as are found on the other side of the slide.

Attached Images

20181014_151854(1).jpg (168.0 KB, 62 views)

It’s my understanding that the “drop eagle 863” proof was used on post-WWII West German military pistols. They were not intended for the commercial market and don’t have the typical commercial proof marks.

__________________
"I also cook."

Looks like you have the same marks on your frame as I do. What do they signify?

E/863, acceptance stamp of the German Federal Office of Defense Technology and Procurement. I'm thinking it was probably made sometime around the late 60's to 70's.

I picked this one up a few months back..

I was able to dig up a little more info on the post-war Walther PPK. The serial dates your gun to 1968-69.

__________________
"I also cook."

The PPK came in this cardboard box, note that the guns serial number is on the end label. With it I also got the extra magazine and shoulder holster set-up. Note that the threading on the left side of the actual holster is coming apart. This suggests to me that this rig saw considerable use. At least it was worn a lot.

Is the box original to the gun?

Attached Images

	P1120423(1).JPG (72.4 KB, 60 views)
	P1120424(1).JPG (55.9 KB, 53 views)

Thanks so much for your help. Please see the pics of box and accessories.

I have read somewhere, that police and military orders weren't proofed. Given that, what's the likelihood that they were shipped in a plain cardboard box?

The Drop Eagle 836 proof marks are Post WWII acceptance stamps used by the German Materials Testing Agency of the Ministry of Defense. These were used on Post WWII military weapons both for Germany and members of NATO who had purchased Walters. The British MOD used this proof their PP.22 lr issued in Nothern Ireland, (which is another interesting subject.) My British Army L66A1 did come in a cardboard box.

Jim

After taking the pics of box and accessories, I picked up the box and the end label fell off. Lo and behold, under the label is a hand written serial number for my PPK. Guess the old label glue just couldn't hold on any more. Yes, I'll keep the label safe.

Same question, is the box original to the gun?

Attached Images

P1120425(1).JPG (56.6 KB, 37 views)

Jim, does your box look like mine? Please see the pics of my box. The puzzle pieces are coming together, especially the NATO connection for my PPK. I have a rumour, as told to me by the guy I got it from, about my PPK to relate later on. He had it since 1985 till I got it.

Yes indeed, NOW my box looks like yours. My box did not have the label on it, just the hand written serial number on it. Otherwise, it looks to be the same even though mine was for a PP.

This is fun, thanks for your original post and questions.

Jim

Well, now we're getting somewhere. Your box looking like mine lends some credibility to the thought that the boxes are original to the guns as an austere police or military issue. No need for fancy anything, here's your shipment of PPK's. Now issue them to your people. That the boxes actually stayed with the guns is amazing, or is it? Yes, this is fun, it's winter, can't mow the lawn or go for a motorcycle ride, lets find out a few things.

Actually I always assumed that the box was just for importation reasons. I thought the hand written serial number was written on any box and then the pistol got thrown in. Maybe not huh?

I never cared about the box, (till now maybe,) as I didn’t think it had any real importance. I was just happy to find out that there were just 3000 made/bought by the British MOD for issue in Northern Ireland, and only 1500 were imported into the U.S..

We have waited long enough, what is the story, (that was told to you,) about your PPK ?

Jim

Since we're on a PPK or PP thread here, sure, lets see the pic.

The fella I got my PPK from purchased it from a gun store in 1985. I have official paperwork to confirm that. The gun store told him that they got if at an auction, and that it was being sold at auction by the Winnipeg, Manitoba, Police. Apparently it was used by a Detective there.

Canada being a NATO country, and being a, "police order", would make sense for no proof marks.

The, "Drop Eagle 863", or E/863 marks are, Post WWII acceptance stamps used by the German Materials Testing Agency of the Ministry of Defense. These were used on Post WWII military weapons both for Germany and members of NATO who had purchased Walthers.

Given the strict rules on German armament production after WWII, there were a few ways to continue producing firearms in spite of the rules. I now believe that my PPK had the frame and barrel produced in St. Entiennes, (spelling), France, only 60K or 40 miles from the Walther facility in Ulm, Germany. Their proof marks do not appear anywhere on the gun. Walther produced the slide, and mated it with the French parts. That way, Germany was not producing firearms, only parts for them.
Then guns were, "assembled". Note in my pics that the blueing does not match from slide to frame. That's because they were blued in 2 different countries. Note the German blueing is nicer.
The magazines are German Walther. One with pistol grip extention, and one with a flat base. This is standard issue for the PPK, one of each type.

The cardboard box is now maybe original to the gun as we have found another one just like it.

It came with a shoulder holster setup with the removable holster showing signs of considerable use. The inside of it, while being in good repair, is quite blackened in areas where the PPK would contact it. The threads on one side of the holster are somewhat discombobulated. It needs to have the seam re-sewn. Perhaps I should leave it alone. The PPK fits it like a long worn glove or boot. Now a bit loose at the side threads.

There are a couple of folks who dated it by the serial number to be 1968 or 69 manufacture.

So, did the Winnipeg Police Department, in the late 60's, order up a bunch of PPK's.

Somewhat prior to the 1985 auction, did the Winnipeg Police Detectives switch to a different gun and therefore need to get rid of the old PPK's for budgetary reasons? Surely they would have to get rid of un-needed assets to please the Winnipeg City Council who were funding them.

Did James Bond ever borrow it?

Stay tooned.

Thanks soooo very much to all who have chimed in on this. You folks are the best.

Joe Canuck, (Pete)
.

I only have three right now. Not that I’m against Nazi-ism or Nazi’s in general, I prefer to collect pre-war examples. Of course I have been forced to get Nazi marked pistols just because that was when they were made. But even my HSc and 1934 Mausers are early “commercials”.)

Pictured are; 1938 .32 PP, 1935 .32 PPK, and again the early ‘70’s .22 PP British L66a1. The PPK came with the original clam holster, with a German Doctors name under the flap, and extra magazine.

Jim

Attached Images

112FA510-8ECA-47C9-B119-55478522AC73.jpg (64.3 KB, 41 views)

That was an important point about the magazines and I didn’t mention it.

My L66A1 came with two, one flat and one finger extension, like your PPK.

Jim

Nice collection man, I'm afraid to even start down that road.

Let‘s not get carried away with all the speculation.

As was already pointed out, the “eagle with drooping wings“ is a German Federal quality control mark and not found on either commercial or police-issued pistols. The box label looks like an original German label not related to any exporter.

In the 1960s, the West German army and air force purchased limited numbers of PPKs for military intelligence, personal protection details, and pilots. While I have no specific knowledge about serial ranges and circumstances, that would be the most obvious explanation for this gun.

As for manufacture, this PPK, as were all PP/PPK pistols until the mid-1980s, was manufactured at Manurhin/Mulhouse in France and shipped to Ulm/Germany for proofing and finishing. St.Etienne was a French proofhouse and has nothing to do with this gun, only with Manurhin-finished pistols. Like P1 pistols, the PPKs appear to have skipped the Ulm proofing and been federally tested instead.

PS: The number within the drooping wings was an inspector code. Police PPs/PPKs were not tested by this agency (the “Güteprüfdienst des Bundesverteidigungsministeriums“, if you want to really sound knowledgeable ), but were commercial-proofed, so I do not believe this pistol could have been part of an official order by any foreign police department, unlike the above-mentioned British orders, which were military.

My guess is that James Bond would have been issued with a commercial pistol, not one that'd mark him as an agent with a NATO-marked/proofed gun.

And I'm sure that the sophisticated Mr. Bond would have preferred the nicer box!

If I remember correctly it came in a wood box and had a hinged lid. no spare magazine.............................. and he left the box with Moneypenny.......

I always got a kick out of that line in the James Bond movie,

My Old Georgia Buddy had a nice one.
He got it for free while touring Germany in 1944-45.
It was brand new in the box from an Arsenal.

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER