Anyone ever owned or shot a U.S. Springfield Trapdoor .45-70 breechloader, either original or reproduction?



I’m interested in owning it for the history and experience. Thoughts?

I have a 1873 Cavalry Carbine (Pre Custer!). Friends of mine have an H&R Officers Model, it shoots real well with Black Powder or Smokeless!

On the H&R's, you would want to below Serial Number 5000, that where the quality drops off.

Ivan

Maybe Iggy will show the trapdoor he put together. Please.

I have an original Springfield trapdoor musket and have occasionally shot it. It's a real hoot and perfectly safe if in good condition with modern commercial ammunition.
Jim

I've got a couple, dont shoot much but they are fun. One thing to remember, the originals cannot handle modern ammo, I load for mine.
Surprisingly accurate out to 100 yards with right ammo.

At one time I had two rifles and a carbine. At present I have only one, an 1884 rifle. Surprisingly there are still many original parts available for them.

Yes, I've owned both!

Original trap door black powder only. The H&R rifles probably would do fine with standard smokeless loads.
A note or thought: Shiloh Sharps Rifles are made of modern up to date materials, however, they are for black powder only. Call Shiloh sometime and hear the scream of the wounded panther if you even think about smokeless. Voids everything!!
And no jacked bullets in the originals due to the wear they can cause.

Got to shoot an Indian Wars vet. when I was a kid. What a great rifle.

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No baby we aint

North of $2K for a really nice one. Can someone opine on the finer points carbine vs. cut-down rifle fakery ?

I'd like to have a carbine. So far, I've only found rifles priced reasonably. They are longer than a flagpole!

Cool gun!
Great story!

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213th FBINA

A true carbine can be worth 2-3 times in value if in good condition and original. Serial number, exact barrel length,saddle ring ,rear sight and butt plate pretty much is the basis on determining true originals.

I held the late Keith Rush in high esteem as the goto guy for anything trapdoor. His collection was amazing but his knowledge far exceeded any other source I know of. Many records still exist regarding issue but info on the exact features are sketchy.

If you have a historical thing going on inside, like any other old firearm, you have to wonder where this rifle was and what did it experience. Those carbines give me a warm fuzzy feeling everytime I pick it up.

Sometimes ya get that Little Big Horn feeling then you have to remember that, some carbines/rifles were actually born as Civil War muskets so that feeling of wonderment can go to a lot of places

I carried one up San Juan Hill in 1898.

While I have not owned a Trap Door I reloaded for two carbines that were loaned to me and fired a friend's rifle. All of them had their original 19th Century barrels. Typical of original barrels their groove diameters ran from o.463" to 0.468". I read that Italian made modern reproduction Trap Doors had modern 0.458" to 0.459" groove diameters. There is plenty of reloading information in reloading manuals for modern barrels.

There are two ways to assemble cartridges that will be accurate in original barrels. When Trap Doors were new the sloppy barrel manufacture was not important because black powder bumped the soft lead bullets up to groove diameter. Commonly available bullet molds are accurate with black powder but only with soft lead. For an accurate smokeless powder load you have to have a bullet mold custom made with a nose with parallel sides that tightly fit your Trap Door's land diameter and driving bands that tightly fit its groove diameter. You use hard lead the same as you would use in a cast bullet .30-06 cartridge.

My friend's rifle had a pristine bore. He had North East Industrial (NEI) machine a mold as described above. Cast with hard alloy the bullets still weighted over 500 grains. Off a bench 100 yard groups were similar to good cast bullet .30-06 loads. Using a car odometer to measure the distance the elevation markings on the old sight were very close to where the bullets landed. Firing prone we could ring a 55 gallon drum nearly every shot at 600 yards.

Both of the carbines that relatives loaned me had pitted bores. I used black powder and soft lead cast in molds that were made for modern groove diameters. I only got about 4" groups at 100 yards. My friend's rifle's excellent bore and longer sight radius grouped my black powder loads tighter.

Edit to add: The carbines that were loaned to me were not originally made as carbines. Many rifles were cut shorter either by National Guard Armories or to make them sell better as military surplus. Real original carbines are valuable.

What repro did you have, was it any good?

Thinking of a Pedersoli (Uberti) copy since originals are so expensive to find in good shooting shape.

I own a repro which I got at a decent price on the used-consignment rack at my LGS. It is a blast to shoot. I don't know that I would shoot an original even if I owned one.

In 1970 I bough 12 1873 Trapdoor Springfield infantry models in the original crate and one cavalry model and one officers model, all from an antiques dealer when I was on my honeymoon in Pennsylvania. Wish I still had them. (No not the ex-wife, just the rifles).

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Sag Harbor & Manhattan, N.Y.

I had a very early SN and clean Springfield trApdoor rifle with original bayonets and scabbard but never shot it due to concerns of it not being able to handle modern ammo. I wound up selling it along with much of my collection of military weapons.

I own a Model 1873 rifle(and bayonet)...plus a Carbine. I think the rifle dates to 1881 and the carbine to 1880

They both shoot fine with 'cowboy' level .45-70

I have one Pancho Villa captured from George Patton—or that’s what the mexican gentleman told me in El Paso and I know they would never lie to a gringo.

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Possum—The other white meat!

It is not true that only black powder can be used for reloading. Reloading manuals are full of smokeless powder recipes that are perfectly safe to use in Trapdoor rifles and carbines, usually faster powders. Pyrodex also works well. I have found mine shoots very well using Pyrodex.

There are also reloading recipes made for use in more modern rifles, and those are too hot for use in Trapdoors.

Iggy has shown this picture several times and I absolutely never get tired of looking at it. Thanks Iggy!

You can buy a good original for about what a repro costs.
If there are any bore condition issues, sent it to the widely acclaimed Bobby Hoyt of Freischutz Shop fame for a barrel reline job and it will shoot like a new gun.

The original will have better workmanship and appreciate in value while the pedersoli won't

Tulsa, Oklahoma, ca. 1958. My father and I would ride the bus into the city center to a pawn shop. There, my father would sort through two wood barrels of old trapdoors and pick the one he liked. When asked about the guns functioning, the owner would grab a round out of another barrel and head to the backroom of the store. The next sound was "Fire in the hole!" quickly followed by the biggest boom the world had ever heard. There was another hole in the floor. After the smoke cleared, the owner would ask my father if that was a good test of the rifle as he handed it to him. I proudly walked back to the buss stop with the rifle over my shoulder so we could ride back home.

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Mike Maher #283

I have an 1873 model infantry rifle built in 1884 that I inherited from my brother. I also have a bayonet and scabbard. Overall it’s in excellent condition and has an excellent bore. One former user marked his name on the but, “ I E Shaw”. He also identified a Kansas regiment, the 22nd, I believe. (I’m not close to the gun right now). I checked with the historian for the Kansas National Guard and he was able to find a Corporal Ira E Shaw of the same regiment as noted on the stock of my gun who was mustered in for the Spanish American War. Researching the unit in 1898, the regiment was mustered in and sent to the DC area for training. Sounds like the Kansas boys put more effort into raising hell in DC than they actually put into military training. The regiment was mustered out and sent home after a couple of months. But it’s great to know the history of the rifle.

Guys thanks so much!! Do the original carbines command a premium over the rifles? Really desiring a carbine...

I have fired several originals all infantry versions and a few sporterized jobs. Trap doors started out as breech loading conversion for Muzzel loader. The originals shouldn't be shot with any thing other than duplication of BP loading. Most cases they do best with lead bullets. Factory loads had be geared to allow using them in the old BP rifles. With
45/70 making a big comeback and all kind of buffalo loads being sold, be careful what you are shoving in it.

I have a few in my collection -

An 1866 rifle
An 1868 rifle
An 1879 rifle
An 1879 carbine
An 1884 rifle (with ramrod bayonet)

Here's a pic of my Model 1866 (2nd Allin conversion), in .50/70 caliber. I have to load my own ammo for this one and the Model 1868 which followed it.



Here's one of my favorites - an 1879 cavalry carbine.



I've shot all of 'em with moderate smokeless powder loads - it's like holding history in your hands, for sure.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

This is a several year old photo of mine.
Model 1870 .50-70 rifle made in 1870
Model 1884 .45-70 rifle made in 1887
Model 1884 .45-70 carbine made in 1885.
Remington Rolling Block, .43 Spanish made in 1879.
I load black powder ammo for all of them. The Remington has a slip-on recoil pad and an ammo sleeve on it because I had been hunting with it. I periodically see rifles in pawn shops but I haven't seen a carbine in a long time.

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That carbine is looks like it was made yesterday.

Thought I remembered something about the cavalry using .45-55 ?

Can these guns fire the Buffalo Bore high velocity ammo? I assume the repros can. Thoughts?

I have a original Springfield Trapdoor 1878 Model Rifle in 45/70 with a 32 1/2 inch barrel. I have been told they called this model a Long Tom Model. My best friend and the best shooting partner I ever had. Gave it to me just before He passed away. It is in very good shape and shoots extremely well out passed 200 yds. The load I use in it is 35grs of IMR3031 with a 405gr Hardcast LRNFP Bullet. The gun is just a hoot to shoot, but I don`t shoot it all that often. I am very worried I might damage it in some way, for I am not sure I should be shooting it at all.
ken

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DON'T MEAN NOTHING:

Do they ever. Especially if you find one from the Little Big Horn era. Just because one looks like a carbine, it may not be. Many rifles were cut back to resemble carbines. They can fool someone who doesn't know what to look for. Easy to spot by someone who knows carbines. Not all these "spurious" carbines were made with an intent to defraud. At one time rifles were cheap, and many rifle owners just "sporterized" them into carbines with a hacksaw.

I once found one of the "sporterized" trapdoor carbines in a museum display which was identified as an original carbine. I pointed out the fallacy and it was removed from display. Did the same thing regarding a Krag carbine in the same museum, also removed from display. Both guns had probably been there in the display case for many years with no one noticing the obvious discrepancies.

There was a great deal of interesting ammunition development performed at Frankford Arsenal during the time period the trapdoor was in U. S. military service, but that's a story for another time.

NO!!!!! Not the originals OR the repos. I like trapdoors, I have owned several, but they are a weak action.


The rifles used .45-70-405 (bullet weight). Then the Army increased the rifle bullet weight to 500 grains. Some of this ammo was fired in carbines, but I don't think it was on purpose.

The Army did go to the .45-55-405 load for carbines.

"I have been told they called this model a Long Tom Model."

Don't know why the soldiers would call them that. The trapdoor rifles were about 7" shorter than the 1861 and 1863 rifle muskets that they replaced. Infantry carried the rifles and cavalry carried the carbines.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I see! I think I heard the Sharps can use the hot ammo. Doesn't seem the case for the Trapdoor. Not a problem, will stick to light loads and black powder reloads.

So guys, the Pedersoli carbine is about $1350 from most sources. How expensive are the original carbines in shootable shape? Do not need or desire a top specimen, just one that shoots decently and is stable.

Thoughts?

I do not have the specs for the BB loads but check with them. They should know better than anyone.

IMO, no, the originals were designed for blackpowder and using original loads can shoot through most game animals. I load for an45/70 and a 50/70, Blackpowder and lead. It certainly does the trick.

Sorry, did not see this was answered by Miley Gil.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

For that kind of money you can buy a very good specimen.

Check out this website for most anything you need to know about the Springfield Singleshot Breechloading Rifle.

The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Even a carbine? Oh! That would be ideal!!

Still have the 1884 Trapdoor rifle given to me by a lady friend of my Mom.

This lady owned a few lower-end rental houses and had seen kids dragging around 'some big ol' gun' that a prior tenant had left at one of the houses.
I was about 13-14 and on my way to being a full-fledged gun geek.
Still have the carton of the first box of ammo I bought for it, 'Peters' 405 gr SP.
I had been messing with black powder cap and ball repro revolvers for a little while and devoured every Dixie Gun Works Catalog I could get.
Read a piece in one of them by Turner Kirkland about simple reloading using cases, an icepick and lead round balls.

I started doing that since I couldn't afford buying commercial ammo.
Taking the fired cases, and using a block of wood with a hole in it, I'd de-prime with an icepick, re-prime using a dowel and the wood block.
A dipper or so of FFFg black to about the mid-way point. Then a .457/.458 RB secured in place with a drop or two of Elmers.

I was way proud of being able to shoot my Trapdoor with ammo I could say I made. Match accuracy was not the goal fortunately.

Still have it, and it holds much sentimental value. The bore was in poor shape when I got it, but that sure didn't curb my pride of having it.

They are neat old rifles and I know for many years held no real value.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

As far as ammunition for old or new Trapdoor rifles/carbines goes....the reloading manuals I own have three levels of load info for .45-70


Trapdoors and other 'weak' actions have the lightest loads listed for a reason. Brand new trapdoors still require lighter loads same as the original rifles.


Since I own two old trapdoors in .45-70 and a Browning 1886 carbine in same caliber...I just load .45-70 to 'trapdoor spec'. The Browning can undoubtedly handle heavier loads than the old original trapdoors...however the lighter loadings are much more pleasant to shoot in any of my three rifles.

I have no real use for super-duty .45-70 ammo. The cartridge works very well at or near original ballistics.

The Bible for reloading here is "Loading Cartridges For The Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine" by J.S. and Pat Wolf.

While J.S. is gone, Pat still sells the book and other items at www.the45-70book.com

I have no financial interest in the book or website. Just in BP reloading to improve accuracy for a Model 1884 Trapdoor.

IMNSHO, the military should have armed themselves with Remington rolling blocks, as the RB action is much stronger. However, the War of Northern Aggression had cost a lot of money and even with the drastic cutback in strength of the military, there wasn't much money available for new firearms. The trapdoors used a lot of parts that were common to the rifle muskets that they were replacing.

The first TDs used a .58 rimfire round that was unsat. The Army was trying to use the same barrel as the muzzle loading rifle musket. Next was the .50-70, which was a big improvement. Then, in 1873, the .45-70 round was introduced. These rifles and carbines were in first line until 1892, when the Krag-Jorgensen was adopted. However, the TD hung around for many years. Volunteer troops used them in the Spanish-American War.

In 1916, James Thurber, the author of The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, drilled with a TD while enrolled in ROTC at Ohio State University.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I always have enjoyed this concealed carry piece version of the TD Springfield my son and I saw at the excellent Buffalo Bill Cody Museum and Grave Site outside of Denver.

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Possum—The other white meat!

Not really sure how “weak” the action is. It is certainly strong enough for blackpowder loads and right before the Spanish American War, Springfield texperimenting with smokeless loads.

Springfield also used the trapdoor action to test barrel metals for the Krag. They used several actions and test fired them with 30-40 ammunition to determine the proper steel recipe to use in the new rifle.

I am also aware of some rebarring done that would raise some eyebrows.

The early conversions done on muskets were certainly weak. After the Model 1873, all the parts were newly made and much stronger.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

The RRB lacked extraction ability to get the fired shells out of dirty chambers.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

"A carbine with the early 45-70 loads kicked the snot out of those troopers. Thus the Army reduced the load for carbines to 45-55-405 down from the Infantry rifle load of 45-70-500"

The chronology is a little different. The earliest issue trapdoor loads were .45-70-405 for both rifles and carbines. The recoil was a little ferocious when that load was used in the carbine, so the powder charge in ammunition for carbine use was dropped to 55 grains, creating the .45-55-405 cartridge. For this carbine load, a cork wad was used under the bullet to avoid the empty space above the powder. The ammunition for the carbine usually had an identifying "C" on the cartridge head as both loads used the same 405 grain bullet and were of the same length. Early .45-70 loads used inside cup-anvil priming usually refereed to as the "Benet Cup". They look like rimfire cases as there is no visible primer. Later, central fire primers were used. Later testing showed that ballistic and long-range performance was much improved if the bullet weight was increased to around 500 grains, so the .45-70-500 load was born, and was intended mainly for rifle use. The carbine ammunition using the 405 grain bullet continued in production, but the 500 grain bullet load could also be used in the carbine. Another change was that the 405 grain carbine bullet was simply seated deeper in the case eliminating the need for the cork above-powder wad. It also made the carbine ammunition instantly distinguishable from the 500 grain rifle load due to its shorter COAL.

If anyone is seriously interested in the development of the .45-70 cartridge (and there is far more to it than I mentioned above), I refer you to the excellent and highly detailed treatment provided in Volume 1 of Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton's book, "History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition."

Thank you Senator Warren.

I have seen some real bad fakes and some real good fakes. There is one point where they all fail. The diameter at the muzzle. Both the rifle and the carbine have a muzzle diameter of 0.725. However, the carbine barrel has a faster taper than the rifle barrel to get the 0.725 at 22 inches. If you cut down a rifle barrel to 22 inches, the muzzle diameter will be 0.775.


Fakes have had rifle rear sights marked with an R, rather than a correct carbine rear sight marked C.



Carbine trigger guards do not have a sling swivel. Rifle trigger guards do. If you see a carbine with a sling swivel on the trigger guard, it is a fake.


Rifles never had a trapdoor in the butt for cleaning rods. Carbines with the long wrist stock also did not. Carbines with the short wrist stocks had the trapdoor for cleaning rods. If you see a carbine with a short wrist stock without a trapdoor in the butt, then the stock is a modified rifle stock.



A lot of these things can be faked, but the one thing they can't fake is the muzzle diameter.

They used the .45-70 case, but used 55 grains of black powder. They took up the extra space with cardboard wads. They used a 405 grain hollow-base bullet. I once took apart an original cartridge case to see how it was loaded. With 55 grains of black powder, the carbine speaks with authority.