I know there were full auto MAC 11, was there a simi-automatic made? How would I tell the difference? Seller "inherited" it and never shot it and claims to know nothing. I doubt its full auto I just don't want to take a chance.... thanks in advance
The M11 was manufactured in both 380 ACP and 9MM Parabellum.
The bulk of the 380ACP versions were Select fire and are classified as Title II firearms under the National Firearms Act . . . Sub-Machine Guns
I am fairly certain that the M11/9 was first brought to market by SWD in Georgia, It was offered in both a Select Fire variant and a semi-auto variant. There are probably more semis out there than SMGs
The select fire guns came with a collapsible wire stock which is a good tell. However the stock was removable from the firearm.
The select fire guns have a rotating selector on the left side of the frame toward the front off the trigger guard that can be rotated between semi and full. The safety will be a slide lever on the underside of the firearm on the right side of the frame toward the front of the trigger guard
The semi auto guns have a rotating selector on the right side of the frame that selects between safe and fire.
If this turns out to be a SMG, the Heir to the estate needs to contact the Executor to get some NFA paperwork filed. If the firearm was bequeathed to him specifically " I leave my M11 to John Q Public", then the executor needs to file a NFA Form 5 and the gun will legally transfer ownership to the Heir tax free.
If he inherited it in a bulk statement "I leave everything to John Q Public" then the executor needs to file a form 4 and the SMG will legally pass to the Heir with a $200 transfer tax.
In either of these last two scenarios, the Executor is the person who needs to be in possession of the firearm until the Form 4 or 5 returns from the NFA branch
If its a Auto it fires from a Open bolt ALTHOUGH early M 11's fired from a open bolt semi auto and we're quite easy to convert. I found them to be poor as a Close quarters weapon, the Swedish K and SW 76 are much better weapons as is the Uzi.
What colt saa and Mrnurse said... +1
Boy this is going way back in the memory archives but IIRC, the early semis were open bolt design until they were determined to be too easy to convert and then were closed bolt configured, hence M11-9. The larger models; M10's were .45 ACP and 9mm and were changed to CB too.
I haven't seen an OB in semiauto in quite a while but last OB semi M10 (.45) fetched $1100 with accessories to a collector.
I once had quite a few of these along with the SIONICS wipe type suppresors (Studies In Operational Negation of Insurgency and Counter Subversion) from original MAC (Military Armament Corp.- Mitchel Werbel & associates), SWD- Steven Wayne Daniels, RPB, etc, etc...
ETA:
They had a pretty high rate of fire (1100 p/min) IIRC and as mentioned, not very practical for other than burning through lotsa ammo. I can't recall of any major LE or military adopting them. They were super cheap though back in the day.
Last edited by jack the toad; 03-09-2019 at 12:17 PM.
The change in status for ALL the open bolt semi-autos came in 1982.
1986 legislation declared them to be Title II firearms...SMGs, even if they only fired semi-auto. The Open bolts manufactured from 1982-1986 have a weird standing with the NFA and I do not recall the particulars at the moment
All Open Bolt Semis manufactured prior to the 1982 administrative change are still classified as Title I firearms and transfer no differently than any other handgun
Back in the early 1980s, M11/9 SMGs were advertised at $159. The firearm cost less than the transfer tax. Oh How I long for the good old days
The open bolt M11/9 SMGs had a rate of fire between 1650 and 1850 depending on the particular firearm you measured.
I have put 10s of thousands of rounds through many examples of the M10 and M11 SMGs practicing over the decades.
Their 1600+ rate of fire is where the term "Bullet Hose" originated from, though today that term is applied to many different SMGs
The M10s were in use by small Many Agencies. Last time I looked that was still one sitting with the North Miami Beach SIU. It was right beside their Ithaca Auto Burglar...but that was several years back
I can't recall who made it but there was a shoulder holster that attached to two snaps that were mounted at the back end of the M10. The firearm hung on leather that had a swivel. You carried the 45ACP M10 on your strong side with the 12 round magazine in it while a pair of the 32 round magazines were hanging on your weak side. The firearm could be deployed very rapidly
BTW, according to Sylvia Daniels, SWD stood for Silvia & Wayne Daniels. She was a very smart business lady. I met Sylvia and Wayne back in the eighties when I used to work the semi annual Red Baron auctions
colt saa and Jack the toad have covered all the salient points, here is a semi version. It is also stamped “semi”.
In the 80’s I was posted at a duty station where we had a number of the Mac 10 and 11’s in inventory, along with the suppressors. “Bullet hose” is an apt term, I always thought they would be useful if you got in a gun fight in a phone booth. They were a hoot to shoot. The one’s we shot had very generous chamber dimensions and would bulge the fired brass to the point where they useless, if you had any intentions of reloading the spent brass.
As with most “ specialized” tools, if you developed the proper skill sets, had the gun set up properly they could be used to good effect within reason. As you can see from the photo, they are compact and with the full auto cyclic rate could put a blizzard of lead down range in a heartbeat.
And what a coincidence, I turn on the TV and John Wayne in “Mc Q” just started. The Duke makes good use of a Mac in this movie.
Last edited by loc n load; 03-10-2019 at 08:30 AM.
As mentioned before, you will be looking for a selector switch on the front left side of the frame and is usually marked full on one side, and semi on the other, and fire from a open bolt. If you see no selector on the left side of the frame and are still leery, load up a mag with 2 rounds, and fire it. If it fires both rounds with one trigger pull, you know that you have more to deal with.
Last edited by daglockman; 03-10-2019 at 06:52 PM.
I passed on a open bolt semi 5 months ago for 1200.00...nothing wrong with it, just never liked them much, I shot the Uzi with wood stock and MP5K much better. Some M11's had a loop strap attached to the barrel to keep the front down. I shot the CZ Scorpion in 380 and found it a bit better to keep on target but again the cyclic rate was to fast for me.
I passed on a open bolt semi 5 months ago for 1200.00...nothing wrong with it, just never liked them much, I shot the Uzi with wood stock and MP5K much better. Some M11's had a loop strap attached to the barrel to keep the front down. I shot the CZ Scorpion in 380 and found it a bit better to keep on target but again the cyclic rate was to fast for me.
The front strap was on the SMGs, the Semi-Autos did not have it. The straps could be easily added or removed
If you had the can on, that is what you held onto. I remember Nomex covers for the suppressors as well
As mentioned before, you will be looking for a selector switch on the front left side of the frame and is usually marked full on one side, and semi on the other, and fire from a open bolt. If you see no selector on the left side of the frame and are still leery, load up a mag with 2 rounds, and fire it. If it fires both rounds with one trigger pull, you know that you have more to deal with.
That is the rig I remember. I just did not remember them coming from Gene DeSantis, but those were purchased in the 1980s and my memory ain't what it used
I bought a select fire M-10 9mm in about 1983, along with the sound suppressor. The receiver said it was by R.P.B., but under the plastic grip it was marked S.W.D., and that what the paperwork said.
With 115 gr NATO the cycle rate was right at 900 RPM, 124 gr was somewhat slower. Sub sonic ammo was not available on the open civilian market so I loaded 130gr Sierra Tournament master projectiles at about 975fps. My cycle rate was approximately 400 rpm, plenty slow enough to squeeze off 3 shot bursts in full mode.
The suppressor was so quite with the right ammo, in August I was shooting in the back yard, you could hear the empty brass rustling in the dry grass! I have a 1/3 size steel silhouette of a torso target with suppressor and stock extended, I would fire 3 to 5 shot bursts at 50 yards. I don't remember ever missing the target! In pistol mode, full auto short bursts of 115 gr. with two hands, you were lucky to get one hit on target!
I also bought the semi-auto closed bolt M-10 in about 1985, shortly thereafter the 9mm M-11 came out. I never saw a select fire M-11 except on TV. The closed bolt guns were scary quiet with sub-sonic ammo!!!
After I grew board with the sub-gun I didn't shoot it for 10 years then sold it back to the same Class III dealer I bought it from for about double what I paid, he had it sold the day the transfer from me came through for double that again. It was an OK toy but too much hassle for the amount of enjoyment it gave! I had always wanted a Thompson!
I still have half a dozen mags, and one of those shoulder rigs around here somewhere!
I bought a M11-9 just before the ban here in Ct . I paid under $600.00 for It.
There was a local guy that made top ends with MP-5 HK sights he also adapted the folding stock to a fixed AR carbine collapsing type and a MP-5 . He also had derlin blocks you could install to bump up the rate of fire to 1900 rpm or slow it down to 400 rpm.
I got the MP-5 sighted top end and the AR carbine buttstock for mine .I also got a .22 LR . top end that the magazine mounted from the side like a sten gun that you had to use CCI mini -mags for it to function
It was a fun gun but after several years I converted it to full auto only to comply with Ct. law to be sold in Ct. and sold it at a very large profit.
I took Law Enforcement in High School and our instructor, a retired sheriff in Southern Illinois, said he had a MAC-10 as a personal weapon. I’ve always been interested in these little boxy machine pistols! What firepower the .45 ACP variant has, I couldn’t imagine what a close range burst or magazine dump could do to a felon, especially loaded with JHPs!
I owned several of the semi-auto M11/9mm guns in the late-80s/early-90s, and sold a quite a few more when I had an FFL. They were fun guns to shoot, but not particularly useful other than being a bullet hose at a paper target.
Interesting story: When I had an FFL I would sometimes have a table at local gun shows. I usually had one or two of these on my table because they were cheap and easy to sell. I would have the fake suppressors as well because they made the gun easier to point shoot and they looked cool.
So at one show I had one of the guns, a fake suppressor and some 30-round magazines. Near the end of the show, three guys that I can best describe as stereotypical gangbanger-like guys are walking through the show and take one look at my table and make a beeline for it. They're handling the M11/9 and ask me two write down what the package would consist of and the price. Like a rube, I do that and they take one of my cards (name and number).
A couple of months later I get a call from the local FBI office asking me to come in for a chat. I get there and it seems that in the course of arresting someone and searching their premises, they come upon the piece of paper I had written. So we talk for about 15-20 minutes, I give them the full story, and I'm out of there. Needless to say, it was the last time I carried the M11/9 at a gun show.
Man what a Blast From The Past.... I was a Class III Dealer from 1980-1995 and sold a bunch of M11s....it was my favorite SMG... If you bought three at a time I think they were $139.00....
I was with Dallas PD back then and carried it as a "back-up" for a while because of some threats my partner was getting from some Cuban drug dealers. My partner had befriended the girlfriend of the head guy who she could not stand because he treated her like ****...so she got back at him by calling my partner anytime there was a load coming and where to intercept it....
This really pissed the big guy off who hired a hit man to come in from Miami....of course we knew who it was, what he looked liked and where he would be... So we found him at a local hangout...had a short talk with him and he went back to Miami without being paid... The big guy got ten years hard time...never did figure out who had ratted him off....
I carried the M11 in a Assault Systems paded camera bag...still have the bag but sold off the last M11s when I went out of the Class III business... It would empty a 32 round magazine in 1.5 seconds.... With the suppressor on one could hear the bullets hitting the target...
The Duke in his role in the mostly forgettable motion picture "McQ" favored the MAC.
Personally, I have shot the full auto MACs in .45 ACP, .380 ACP and 9mm, and one with the MAC suppressor. I found them to be very crude and relatively inaccurate weapons. I suppose that inside of an elevator they would be effective, but otherwise it was mostly spray and pray.
__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215
Last edited by ordnanceguy; 03-12-2019 at 07:06 PM.
The MACs had a cinematic moment or two there in the 1970s and '80s when they were a popular weapon of choice for Hollywood action movies. They were usually found in the hands of the bad guys.
Here we see some MACs from the motion picture "True Lies". The Governor, aka Arnold Schwarzenegger, is seen here demonstrating his famous crossed arms hold. No doubt that method served to confuse his movie opponents.
His companion, Jamie Lee Curtis, is seen here using the aforementioned "spray and pray" technique.
Mac-10 9mm open bolt semi-autos (and the other I guess) were available in a carbine version also, They had a very long fixed barrel and shroud with the telescoping wire stock or a removable wooden rear stock. (the wooden stock appeared to be a SMLE rear stock turned upside down, and bolted to an adapter t fit in the wire stock cuts). My Class III dealer had one in his gunshop, it sat there for years, until the open-bolt guns were banned.
MAC 11 ?
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