Mystery Revolver

c4racer · #1 07-08-2019, 06:54 PM

I'm hoping someone can help identify this no-name revolver. Probably not S&W (no trademark anywhere) but it bears a remarkable resemblance to an I frame in contour. Nickle plated, octagon barrel, DA only, no loading gate a la Colt SAA. Appears .38 S&W but not marked as such. Only clue is a patent date on the hammer and a S/N on the frame under the stocks. Any help much appreciated.

rwt1405 · #2 07-08-2019, 07:08 PM

Iver Johnson perhaps?

I don't see the "owl" head on the grip, but perhaps they were switched out?

H Richard · #3 07-08-2019, 07:17 PM

It sort of resembles a British Bulldog, but those are usually marked.

rwt1405 · #4 07-08-2019, 07:23 PM

Really thinking Iver Johnson, after googling and finding these pictures.

BMur · #5 07-08-2019, 07:25 PM

That’s an early circa 1887-1894. 5 shot .38 cf Harrington and Richardson “Safety Hammer” with early “ Crown Grips”. See the Kings Crown at the base of the grips? I like this model! Designed as a Bulldog type revolver they were extremely popular from the late 1880’s til the 1940’s!

The earliest examples or “first year production” had round barrels( Scarce). Yours is the 2nd variation with the patent date stamped on the left side of the hammer and octagon barrel. They stopped stamping the date upon expiration of the patent in about 1894. They are very neat guns when functioning. The 44’s are very nice and the values have shot up! The 44’s actually chambered the 44 Webley but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 44 Russian would chamber as well!

Always remember “ Crown Grips? H&R!!

BMur · #6 07-08-2019, 07:33 PM

I just noticed your serial number? That’s a very early 2nd model. So likely 1888! Nice one! Lots of nickel on that puppy!

BMur · #7 07-08-2019, 07:43 PM

Oh by the way. Don’t recommend popping any modern 38’s through that one! It’s an early one! Black powder only!!! Safety first shipmate!!

A little more history if you’re interested . They replaced the crown grips with a bulldog head grip around the turn-of-the-century. Off the top of my head I think it was the model of 1898.

They are often mistaken as Iver Johnson’s. Early Iver Johnson’s had eagle grips from 1883-1887. Those are also very cool. I’ll post a photo. The confusion starts about the turn-of-the-century when both companies used bulldog head grips. However by then Harrington and Richardson started stamping their company logo on the barrel. American made bulldogs are much higher quality than people give them credit.

murphydog · #8 07-08-2019, 07:49 PM

BMur, good information! And you have now been selected as the local Forum H & R expert for future inquiries.

Go Navy!

c4racer · #9 07-08-2019, 07:52 PM

That's what the owner told me. I'm aware that may early cartridge guns still used black powder. Thanks for the answer, shipmate!

c4racer · #10 07-08-2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwt1405

Iver Johnson perhaps?

I don't see the "owl" head on the grip, but perhaps they were switched out?

No, no owl head. I was thinking Iver Johnson, too, but this logo looks more like two diamonds with an arrow pointing up.

c4racer · #11 07-08-2019, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwt1405

Really thinking Iver Johnson, after googling and finding these pictures.

That looks really close except for the hammer spur, and there are no tooling marks suggesting a bob job. I also think IJ, however.

c4racer · #12 07-08-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

That’s an early circa 1887-1894. 5 shot .38 cf Harrington and Richardson “Safety Hammer” with early “ Crown Grips”. See the Kings Crown at the base of the grips? I like this model! Designed as a Bulldog type revolver they were extremely popular from the late 1880’s til the 1940’s!

The earliest examples or “first year production” had round barrels( Scarce). Yours is the 2nd variation with the patent date stamped on the left side of the hammer and octagon barrel. They stopped stamping the date upon expiration of the patent in about 1894. They are very neat guns when functioning. The 44’s are very nice and the values have shot up! The 44’s actually chambered the 44 Webley but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 44 Russian would chamber as well!

Always remember “ Crown Grips? H&R!!

Ah! The crown has it. I thought it was just scrolling, but now I see. Thanks! The only problem with this one is the spring for the base pin release is probably broken because the release won't pop back out when the pin is inserted. Not a big deal. I don't plan to make it a daily carry.

c4racer · #13 07-08-2019, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I just noticed your serial number? That’s a very early 2nd model. So likely 1888! Nice one! Lots of nickel on that puppy!

That seems to be the consensus. I appreciate your response, shipmate!

BMur · #14 07-08-2019, 08:29 PM

The base pin release and also the sear? That little spud on the inside back of the trigger guard? They both originally had straight V springs. They were good for about 20 years. The gun is actually single and double action but the sear spring broke in about Hmmmm 1907 ? so a replacement would do the trick for both. Easy fix!
Here are a couple photos for ya.
The eagle grip is the Early Iver Johnson Bulldog. circa 1883-1887. It was called “American Bulldog”
Harrington & Richardson was titled “The” American Bulldog so you can see they were battling for the Market!
The Basset Hound Head? That’s the next Iver Johnson til about 1898 when they went to the Bulldog head til the end of production in the 1940’s.

cgt4570 · #15 07-08-2019, 08:52 PM

I've made a bunch of replacement 'V' springs by cutting a piece off of an office supply binder clip. They will last forever.

BMur · #16 07-08-2019, 09:17 PM

Wow! Outstanding idea Chris! I’m gonna raid the wife’s office supply box right now!

model3sw · #17 07-09-2019, 02:17 AM

I was about to suggest that possibly a Forehand or Forehand / Wadsworth but if the "I"s say it's positively a H&R, I'm not going to contest.

There were so many (what I call "cheaper" but don't take offense if you own one) copies of the basic S&W design it's very hard to make a proper ID.

I'd have my nose in a Flayderman's catalog for a close ID if I wasn't sure be-forehand (pun intended). Sal

rwt1405 · #18 07-09-2019, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

BMur, good information! And you have now been selected as the local Forum H & R expert for future inquiries.

Go Navy!

So true murphygog!

This is but one example of why I enjoy the time I spend here, as I learn something new everyday!

glowe · #19 07-09-2019, 09:09 AM

I have never heard of a Harrington & Richardson Vest Pocket Safety revolver in 38 S&W?? My research and what I can find online suggest your revolver is a 32 S&W. Several years ago, I saw this 1 1/8" 32 S&W round barrel example that I could not resist. A member here had an empty box which was probably more scarce than the gun and had to have that too. Best I can tell is that the round barrel Vest Pocket revolvers guns were made after 1898 and mine was made in 1900. H&R made a quality revolver and the one I owned was no exception.

I shot it quite a few times, but the small trigger guard and butt-frame would give you sore fingers after a few cylinders full of those dreaded smokeless loads. Sold it last year and was sorry to see such a conversation piece go, but I could never get a good patern at 50 yards!

BMur · #20 07-09-2019, 11:01 AM

The Vest Pocket is another really cool H&R variation. Very nice example Gary! I’m sorry you had to let it go.
Actually the first Vest Pockets were stamped “Self Cockers”! I know it’s not an attractive term but it is very true to history! Folks that preferred the Single action models had a real problem adapting to the new fangled double action that became popular in the 1880s. The general public term was “Self Cocker”. You got one of them Self Cockers??
In Pat Garrett’s book In which he documents the killing of Billy the Kid after Billy “ The Folk Hero” murdered two deputies? Is testament that Billy the kid had “in his hand” a 41 caliber six shot “ Self Cocker”. ( A Colt Thunderer) when Pat Garrett shot him in a dark bedroom. This is a written testament to the term that was often used until the public excepted the new double action model as a viable Revolver.
So finding a vest pocket that’s marked “Self Cocker” is pretty
scarce.
* Also, my mistake! The Bulldog head grip is solely Iver Johnson. Several variations. So the rule still stands: Crown Grips? H&R.

BMur · #21 07-09-2019, 02:51 PM

Actually regarding calibers?

* I forgot to mention that the 44 Cals are listed as “Rare” in my notes!

There were several models by H&R solid frame revolvers. Here are a few;

The Model of 1880( Only 1 year ) : (4000 made): 32 six shot cf, 38 five shot cf. (Scarce) Well made gun!
The American( 1883-1940): 22cal rimfire, 32cal cf, 38 cal cf, 44cal cf (Potent gun!)
H&R Bulldog: 32 & 38 Rimfire
Young America Bulldog :22cal rimfire, 32cal rimfire & cf
Safety Hammer: All calibers listed( 44cal is a potent gun, very thick cylinder walls, smooth action, heavy gun too)( Not a junk gun!) I've shot mine with full black powder loads and it's wicked!
Shell Extractor revolver: "Rare" 32cf, 38cf, Also listed as chambering 32cf H&R Long
Vest Pocket: 22cal 7 Shot rimfire, 32 cal 5 shot cf
Victor: All but the 44cal.

I don’t have my research notes with me. I’ll add info later.
* Just updated and corrected info.

c4racer · #22 07-09-2019, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=BMur;140483324]The base pin release and also the sear? That little spud on the inside back of the trigger guard? They both originally had straight V springs. They were good for about 20 years. The gun is actually single and double action but the sear spring broke in about Hmmmm 1907 ? so a replacement would do the trick for both. Easy fix!
Here are a couple photos for ya.
The eagle grip is the Early Iver Johnson Bulldog. circa 1883-1887. It was called “American Bulldog”
Harrington & Richardson was titled “The” American Bulldog so you can see they were battling for the Market!
The Basset Hound Head? That’s the next Iver Johnson til about 1898 when they went to the Bulldog head til the end of production in the 1940’s.

I'm going to assume that you must drive out the pins to remove the trigger guard in order to reach the internals. I may not do it, but I'd like to know.

Hal, SWCA 3340

BMur · #23 07-09-2019, 06:28 PM

Hi Hal,
Yes Sir, you must drive out the pins. The base pin release spring is extremely easy to replace. The sear spring is more involved but doable.
The best practice with the frame pins is to gently tap on one side of the pin with a very small ball peen' hammer. If it moves flush to the frame that's the side you want to drive the pin so actually through and out the other side. If it resists? Flip the gun over and tap gently on that side. these frame pins and boss(hole in frame) are actually slightly oversized and undersized on one side.
Then use a small pin punch and gently drive the pins out. There are specially designed pins that have a dome that is convex but once you have the pin moving with the ball peen its easy to punch them out.

The only part that is actually spring loaded is the trigger spring. It's not like its gonna fall to pieces on you. That's the only real trick to re-install the trigger guard is to overcome the trigger spring tension and line up the sear under spring tension. It can be tricky but not overwhelming.

You really need to see someone perform the repair to get it right the first time but it's really not super difficult on these. Smiths are actually much harder to work on because they have much more intricate parts.

These are very basic mechanically and are really a beginner gun to fix. So it only gets harder with the more expensive extremely well made guns. Like Smith & Wessons. Great guns but not beginner class to repair, that's for sure! Especially the double actions!

c4racer · #24 07-09-2019, 08:09 PM

Great advice and coaching! Thank you!

nutsforsmiths · #25 07-09-2019, 08:47 PM

I also have one of these pistols too in about the same shape as yours. Mine is a bit later, serial number is 6401 and in 32 S&W. Has the patent dates on the hammer and on the octagonal barrel it says:

H&R Arms Company.
Worchester, Mass U.S.A.

No caliber is listed. H&R added the caliber around 1908 when the pistols were made stronger for smokeless powder, so that's a good indicator as to if it is for black or smokeless powder.

This is the same pistol as the H&R American Double Action, so the parts for both pistols will interchange. The Young American Double Action though will not work with these pistols, as that was a smaller frame size.

Be aware that the V spring used for the cylinder pin retention was later changed to a coil spring, mine has the coil spring type.

I've replaced many sear spring and trigger return springs on H&R and Iver Johnson pistols. They aren't that difficult to do with slave pins. This model is a bit more difficult to put the trigger guard back on because of its design and getting enough tension so the front pin can be put back in.

ACORN · #26 07-10-2019, 06:23 AM

I’ve never tried it but I read you can go through the US Patent Office
website a plug in a date and it will list what was patented on that day. Might help ID’ing

c4racer · #27 07-10-2019, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsforsmiths

I also have one of these pistols too in about the same shape as yours. Mine is a bit later, serial number is 6401 and in 32 S&W. Has the patent dates on the hammer and on the octagonal barrel it says:

H&R Arms Company.
Worchester, Mass U.S.A.

No caliber is listed. H&R added the caliber around 1908 when the pistols were made stronger for smokeless powder, so that's a good indicator as to if it is for black or smokeless powder.

This is the same pistol as the H&R American Double Action, so the parts for both pistols will interchange. The Young American Double Action though will not work with these pistols, as that was a smaller frame size.

Be aware that the V spring used for the cylinder pin retention was later changed to a coil spring, mine has the coil spring type.

I've replaced many sear spring and trigger return springs on H&R and Iver Johnson pistols. They aren't that difficult to do with slave pins. This model is a bit more difficult to put the trigger guard back on because of its design and getting enough tension so the front pin can be put back in.

Thanks for your input. Against my better judgement, I took out the trigger guard. I found the little leaf spring in two pieces, but there is also a coil spring and plunger just behind that cavity. Not sure what that does. Also, the trigger return spring fell out. Not sure of the correct orientation or if that is also the sear spring. By the way, this is a .38. A .38 Spl case will fit the cylinder, so I'm thinking .38 S&W with black powder, not smokeless.

c4racer · #28 07-10-2019, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Hi Hal,
Yes Sir, you must drive out the pins. The base pin release spring is extremely easy to replace. The sear spring is more involved but doable.
The best practice with the frame pins is to gently tap on one side of the pin with a very small ball peen' hammer. If it moves flush to the frame that's the side you want to drive the pin so actually through and out the other side. If it resists? Flip the gun over and tap gently on that side. these frame pins and boss(hole in frame) are actually slightly oversized and undersized on one side.
Then use a small pin punch and gently drive the pins out. There are specially designed pins that have a dome that is convex but once you have the pin moving with the ball peen its easy to punch them out.

The only part that is actually spring loaded is the trigger spring. It's not like its gonna fall to pieces on you. That's the only real trick to re-install the trigger guard is to overcome the trigger spring tension and line up the sear under spring tension. It can be tricky but not overwhelming.

You really need to see someone perform the repair to get it right the first time but it's really not super difficult on these. Smiths are actually much harder to work on because they have much more intricate parts.

These are very basic mechanically and are really a beginner gun to fix. So it only gets harder with the more expensive extremely well made guns. Like Smith & Wessons. Great guns but not beginner class to repair, that's for sure! Especially the double actions!

The only thing that has me baffled is the orientation of the trigger return spring. It fell out when I wasn't looking. The base pin spring was in two pieces (as expected) so I'm going to try the document clip idea. I'm not finding a separate sear spring of that type, so does the horseshoe hammer spring serve both purposes? I have no intention of shooting this thing, but I want to make it work. That's the mechanic in me.

nutsforsmiths · #29 07-10-2019, 07:17 PM

The U shaped trigger return spring where one end is longer than the the other, the shorter end should go against the trigger guard in that step down space behind the pin hole that holds the guard to the front of the frame and the longer end goes up under the lip that's at the top of the trigger, just in front of the cylinder stop. You should feel and see a small lip on the flat part of the trigger guard where the trigger return spring will rest, so it doesn't slide to the rear once installed.

The spring you found behind the sear should be all you need to get the sear to work properly. I am looking at some extra trigger guards I have and both have the hole for the spring and neither of my 2 sears I have contain no cutout for a V shaped spring. Maybe the spring is too short?

I am giving this information by looking at some extra parts I have for these pistols. H&R did make a lot of internal changes to many of their pistols over the years of production and since yours is an early model, it might be a bit different than the parts I have, but I don't think that's the case for the trigger guard, sear and spring.

I hope this is helpful!

OLDSTER · #30 07-10-2019, 09:29 PM

Fantastic and educational thread. Now I've got to start my own search for one like the OPs.

c4racer · #31 07-12-2019, 03:46 PM

Memory is something I wish I knew where I had put. Someone on this forum in the past day or two mentioned the sear spring on the "bulldog" I have apart. I regret not remembering who. I don't think the sear spring was there at all. I think it should be a short coil spring based on witness marks on the sear, but the pocket where it would have been is full of dirt. It's probably 3/16 in diameter if not less. Any thoughts on a substitute?

Thanks all.

gmborkovic · #32 07-12-2019, 04:01 PM

Hello c4, us old guys all use to have memory. I have a coffee can full of gun springs, but you are in TX and Im in FL. Wish you were my neighbor.

c4racer · #33 07-12-2019, 04:08 PM

That's what the mail is for. Let me get good dimensions on the spring, and just maybe you'll have one I can buy.

nutsforsmiths · #34 07-14-2019, 01:19 PM

Looking at the trigger guard I have that is missing the spring, just be aware that the spring is very short. I took out the only extra spring I have and it measures 0.143 in length and width is 0.114 with my caliper.

I also noticed the Numrich Gun Parts has schematics for the H&R American and Bulldog Large Frame, both use the same parts. Part #28 is the spring you will need. They don't have any in stock, but there is a nice picture of what the spring looks like.

I hope this gives you a good starting point.