This is a draft of a forthcoming article. As always, comments welcome.

John

The Webley-Fosbery Semiautomatic Revolver


(Click for larger view)

No, that’s not a misstatement or a contradiction in terms. Semiauto revolvers are indeed a fact, and have existed since the turn of the 20th Century! In 1895, British Lieutenant Colonel George Vincent Fosbery, holder of the Victoria Cross (Britain’s highest award for valor), conceived a workable mechanism for such a handgun.

Although his initial prototype was based on the Colt Single Action Army, he decided to work with the Webley & Scott Revolver and Arms Company, Ltd. to develop it further based on the Webley & Scott top-break revolver system. The W&S revolvers provided the quick extraction and easy loading ability that Fosbery wanted.

Fosbery’s concept was, in essence, splitting a revolver into two assemblies, the upper one being able to slide back on the lower frame through recoil. In doing so, the upper action-cylinder-barrel assembly, with a pivoting lever, cocks the hammer. A stud on the lower assembly guides external zig-zag grooves in the cylinder to rotate it ½ the distance to line up another chamber with the barrel. A spring returns the upper half to battery. In the process, the cylinder is then cammed the rest of the way to align a chamber into firing position. A short single-action pull on the trigger fires the round, and the process is repeated automatically until the gun is empty.

To eject the fired cases, pressing the lever to the left side of the hammer releases the barrel and cylinder assembly for pivoting. The barrel can then be manually hinged down smartly. The cylinder rises up around the pivot point with that motion, causing its internal ejector to be cammed out a certain distance. All the cases are ejected automatically when that is done, just as in the standard Webleys. The ejector then snaps back down into the cylinder. The chambers are all presented for reloading, and then the action is closed. To cock the hammer, it’s done manually or by pulling the entire upper assembly back and releasing it. Reloaded, the handgun can then be fired again.

Simply cocking the hammer or pulling the trigger does not rotate the cylinder, as in conventional revolvers. Only firing the piece or pulling the entire upper assembly back and letting it go accomplishes that. Normal make-ready procedure was to pull the upper assembly back and release it, ensuring that the gun was both cocked and the cylinder properly aligned. Standard practice when battle was imminent was to carry the gun fully cocked, with the manual safety lever on the left side of the handgun pushed upward. This cams the upper assembly a bit backwards, disconnecting the hammer from the sear and locking both the upper assembly and trigger in place. Pushing the safety down then instantly readies the gun for firing. The hammer must be fully cocked in order to engage the safety. The projecting part on the top strap is a spring-loaded stud that locks the cylinder in its proper place when the action is opened for reloading. It disengages when the barrel and cylinder assembly is returned to battery. When the action is open, the projecting part of the stud can be pressed to allow removal of the cylinder.

This new revolver was introduced at the Bisley pistol matches in July of 1900, and was subsequently offered for both military and civilian sales when full production began in 1901. Two standard calibers were offered. The most common was the .455 Webley, and the cylinders of these guns accommodated six rounds. British officers had to buy their own sidearms, and since the .455 was the required standard revolver round, it was natural enough that more of these were made. The second caliber was the .38 ACP round, then newly developed for early Colt semiautomatic pistols. With these, the cylinder would hold eight rounds, and a “full moon” clip was developed for quick reloading. The rear face of the cylinder was cut for these early clips to be utilized. It’s estimated that only about 200 .38 revolvers were ever sold. Officially, two types of .455 guns were made – initially, the 1901 model, and subsequently, the model of 1903. The .38 variation was called the model of 1902. A series of minor modifications resulted in six different designations, Marks I through VI. Total production of the automatic revolvers was about 4,200 (with some serial number block gaps resulting in serial numbers as high as around 4500) through the end of production in 1924. Remaining stocks were sold through the Webley catalog as late as 1939. Typical production rate had averaged out at about 10 guns per week. The more common .455 gun illustrated has the top strap marked "WEBLEY FOSBERY" on the left. The left side of the frame is marked with the winged bullet / ”W&S" trademark followed by "455 CORDITE.” All of these guns have scalloped barrels. Most have checkered hard rubber grips and a lanyard loop.

In 1902 and subsequently in 1907, the Webley-Fosbery was tested by the U.S. military. It did well in loading, accuracy and stopping power tests, but its tight tolerances and need for cleanliness and lubrication did not jibe with U.S. combat reliability needs. The pistol was also heavy – almost two and ¾ pounds. With the six-inch barrel, overall length was a long 11 inches. In the end, John Browning’s pistol design won out and became the famed Model 1911 .45 pistol.

Webley did offer the guns in other configurations if desired. In addition to the standard 6-inch barrel, one could buy a gun with either of the optional 4-inch or 7.5-inch barrels. Although a nickel finish could be had, apparently very few were shipped this way. Metford (polygonal) rifling and even .22 barrel inserts could be had on special order. The longest barrel was available with sights more suitable for target work. At the time, the pistol was fairly popular as a competition gun, with its easy trigger pull and no need to cock the hammer. In 1902, famed target shooter Walter Winans fired 12 shots (including a reload) into a 2-inch group at 20 yards in just 20 seconds. Rapid reloading was accomplished through the use of a Prideaux speedloader.

In war, the Webley-Fosbery was never adopted by any government officially. It did see some action in the second Boer War and World War I, where British infantry officers often carried privately-purchased examples. English pilots sometimes used them in the air before machine guns were prevalent – there were no ejected shells to cause problems. They were comparatively heavy and unwieldy, factors which plagued them. They were also susceptible to jamming from dust, mud and battle debris. A stout hold was required for the action to cycle reliably. Cocking them by manually cycling the whole upper half was a bit of a pain. This gun wasn’t simple to operate, and required the owner to be fully familiar with its peculiarities. It was interesting, had some advantages, and a few serious shortcomings.

The Webley-Fosbery was somewhat notable on the silver screen, appearing in such movies as The Maltese Falcon (1941) and Zardoz (1974). Wherever shown, it was easy enough to spot with its zig-zag cylinder being immediately noticeable. It had a certain exotic mystique, and although it has become quite recognizable, few have actually seen or handled one in person. It was, sadly, the answer to an unasked question. Normal semiauto pistols and normal revolvers served quite well then, and quite well now.

As far as collector value is concerned – well, if you want one, grab your checkbook and prepare to drain your IRA account. The .455 versions will probably cost you multiple thousands, and the .38 types are virtually unobtainable, worth quite a bit more when and if found. These are innovative, fascinating and collectible handguns, classic in every sense of the word – but darn expensive.

(c) 2019 JLM

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

When I was in my early 20s I didn't know what a WF was. I muffed a trade on a WF for a used Hawes SA 44mg. That is the only one I ever saw come out of the woodwork. I've seen very few at shows. Never owned or shot one. I don't know everything yet, but a lot more than I thought I knew when I was 20.

Forgotten Weapons did a video on this once, it's a fascinating design, but was ultimately too complex, too temperamental, and too expensive to really catch on, especially when their were simplier, more reliable, and cheaper autoloaders on the market at the time.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

The hammer of the Fosbery is knurdeld ( sorry probbebly wrong spelling) The reason for that is when you have a miss fire you can recock the Fosbery to grab both sides of the hammer with thumb and finger and pul it back just like a pistol. The model of 1901 dit had a coilspring for after firing bringing back the upperpart to firing position. But it did not work that well when you are pointing the Fosbery in to the air. So the coilspring is replaced by a strong V spring. It has two V springs one for operating the hammer and the other one to bring back the upperpart to firing position.

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A very interesting but definitely not a good looking "pistol"

Pistol in quotes on purpose!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

A forum member here at one time had/has one and posted a video of him shooting it.

Could not have served in the Boer WarS, as only the Second Boer war was late enough, 1899-1902. Don't recall one in, Lawrence of Arabia. As I recall, Lawrence had a conventional MK VI .455. The real Lawrence used a Colt .45 auto, at least some of the time.

Otherwise, probably the best article that I've seen on this design. Of course, Boothroyd addressed it well in, The Handgun.

No need for quotes

Terminology has changed over time. "Handgun" was hardly, if at all, used a hundred years ago; "pistol" served that function in English. So all revolvers were pistols, and the terms were sometimes used randomly on the same page.

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Absalom-

As ever, a wonderful, informative post!

Correct on both counts - Boer War II, and Webley Mark VI in the Lawrence of Arabia movie. I'll change the text.

I watched The Maltese Falcon a couple of nights ago; a W-F was used to kill Sam Spade's partner. Sam Spade (Humphrey Bogart) correctly identified it as a W-F .45, but incorrectly said it was an 8-shot. In the original book, it was called a .38 8-shot, but in the movie, all they could get was the .455, and no one bothered to change the script to reflect the 6-shot .455. In Zardoz, the main character (Sean Connery) used one extensively. I guess I mis-remembered Peter O'Toole as Lawrence brandishing a W-F on top of a camel, but it was indeed a Mark VI - I just checked.

Good thing I have knowledgeable guys like you to keep me honest!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Thanks, Texas! I'm just a sucker for old books, documents, manuals, and catalogs. One learns a lot of interesting things that way

Speaking of which ...

John, just in case this might interest you, Cornell Publications has a reprint of the 1901 catalog for the Webley-Fosberys. Not cheap for 20 pages, though.

Cornell Publications -Webley & Scott 1901 Fosbery Revolvers Catalog

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IN the early 80's I was a member of the Ohio Gun Collectors Association (OGCA) and all meetings were held in the Columbus Ohio Veterans Memorial building. I remember seeing 3 different WF zig-zags for sale over a several show period. But what stands out from my memory, is there was a much smaller version I saw for sale once! It was in 22 LR or 32 caliber, and for sale with a number of very interested men looking at it. The dealer specialized in miniature and small replica (fully functioning) firearms of all natures. I don't have any idea if it was a hand made one-off or a limited production item. I didn't have enough money to buy a sandwich there, so my curiosity was not very high on the priority of being answered!

I thought I saw an article in "some gun magazine" about the 22LR version being of Webley (or more likely W-F) manufacture. (circa late 80's to mid 90's)

Ivan

Great post! I had the opportunity to purchase one about 10 years ago but passed on it. Had it in my hands for awhile and what an incredibly interesting design.

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Some Might Say.

I can not upload the movie anymore. Sorry. It is probbebly somewere in the history of this great forum.

As mentioned in the article, a .22 caliber barrel insert was available, but it was designed for the full-size guns.

A .32 caliber version was reportedly designed, but apparently never saw production. It's possible that one or more prototypes might exist, but I have no concrete evidence of that.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

There was a company up around Toledo, Ohio that made some kind of small revolver that was advertised as automatic. It had the same type cylinder as WF. I've never seen one except in books. I think company name was Union Switch and Siginal. Early 1900s company that made cheap pocket pistols.

The Mateba tried to bring back the concept. I seem to recall being offered a Mateba for about $1000 some years ago, but just couldn't bring myself to spend the money with everything else I had going on.

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Release the Kraken

You do mean this one? The Mateba Unica 6 semi automatic revolver.

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I also thought of the Mateba when I read Paladin's article, I thought he might mention it as a modern day successor. I bought one in .357 when CDNN was closing them out back in 2002. I probably should have bought a .44 Magnum too.





It fires from the bottom of the cylinder, like the superficially similar Rhino.



It isn't my only semi-auto .357, I also have a Coonan Model B.

I was aware of the Mateba, and briefly thought about mentioning it, but I have length restraints that wouldn't allow it unless I left something out on the Webley-Fosbery. So I stuck to the main subject. The Mateba is interesting, but as I said in the article, conventional designs work pretty well, and like the W-F, it does not carve out a popular niche. It is a workable design, but except for the barrel firing from the cylinder's six-o'clock chamber, there's not a whole lot there that wasn't conceived and brought to fruition over a century ago.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Well I continue to learn something new every day John. I knew of the W-F .455, but was not aware the W-F was ever chambered in 38 ACP until you posted this.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Never actually having seen a WF, but having spent a lot of time with a standard Webley Mk VI, I have to question the description in paragraph 4 on the ejection process.

On the standard Webley, pressing the stirrup lever releases the barrel and cylinder to pivot forward and eject the empties. If whole upper assembly pivoted, per your description, I'd expect the standing breech to block ejection. I'd also have to wonder about how the recoil spring fits in there.

I just now modified the text to make that whole process a bit clearer - just the barrel and cylinder assembly are pivoted, not the whole upper assembly. Good point that needed clarification. Thanks.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

There is a Wikipedia article that adds a little more information on the topic of automatic revolvers. Quite a long time ago I saw one of the rare Union automatic revolvers, but I don't remember much about it. I have seen a couple of W-F revolvers over the years. I have always thought it would be interesting to fire one to find out how it feels. Automatic revolver - Wikipedia

Re: WF SA revolver/Lawrence of Arabia. Got me to thinking. Doubtless he'd have had access to and used the common WF revolvers. But, pictures show him using a S&W revolver. And evidence has come to light that he used a 1911 in .45 ACP in the course of a railroad ambush. As well he had a perchance to use SMLE's and a stripped down Lewis MG. Sincerely. bruce.

Here are a couple of links:

American Rifleman | The Arab Revolt and the Guns of Lawrence of Arabia

Lawrence of Arabia's Smith & Wesson Donated to UK's National Army Museum -The Firearm Blog

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<><

I'd give a dollar to watch a high-speed video of that Webley-Fosbery in action.


Well, not hard to find.

Fascinating thing from the technical perspective.

But looking at it from the military viewpoint, it did indeed take the basic reliable DA/SA revolver in the opposite direction from where the British military ultimately wanted to go:

The Webley-Fosbery represented a move toward more single-shot accuracy, but less reliability and more complexity and weight.

Going the other way turned out to be what happened when the Enfield No. 2 Mk 1 in .38 was adopted and then developed into a DA-only revolver, some decades later, accompanied by a quite modern doctrine of “instinctive shooting”.

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I bought this t-shirt from Sonny Barger. Note the revolvers.

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FYI, I was at the Tulsa gun show today and saw 5-6 Webley-Fosbery revolvers, most in .455 caliber. One had a price tag of just under $17,000. There was one .38 automatic, it was priced at $24,000. There was a box of ammo next to it, I don't know if the ammo was included.