Erfurt Luger advice needed

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

Andyd said:
The old civilian manual "Die Selbstlade-Pistole "PARABELLUM" " from DWM states an 8 gram (123.4 grains) projectile at 310 m/s (1017 fps) for the 9mm.

It also points out to have the pistol upside down when reassembling upper and lower.

We have used the P.08 as a service pistol from 1943 to 1961(they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead instead of the German Army) as the main sidearm, and as a secondary sidearm up to 1975, after we adopted the P.38 in 1961.

Our own defense industries(now gone I'm afraid

) used a 115 grs(7,45 grams) bullet that was tailored for the P.08 and was NATO certified. They were of excellent quality.

Still got a box left from a 1999 lot .

I burned thousands of these things.

CZU · Feb 28, 2020

runscott said:
Thanks, Since I'm only experienced with revolvers and non-Luger semi-autos, I'm just wondering if there are safety concerns.

Yes there are, I wouldn't use any 9mm +P varieties. Mine like S&B and Winchester White Box.

schutzen-jager · Feb 28, 2020

Kurusu said:
We have used the P.08 as a service pistol from 1943 to 1961(they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead instead of the German Army) as the main sidearm, and as a secondary sidearm up to 1975, after we adopted the P.38 in 1961.

Our own defense industries(now gone I'm afraid) used a 115 grs(7,45 grams) bullet that was tailored for the P.08 and was NATO certified. They were of excellent quality.

Still got a box left from a 1999 lot .

I burned thousands of these things.

Portugal was issuing them to their army + navy well before the 1942 Mausers - testing began in 1902 + procurement of grip safety models began before WWI -

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

schutzen-jager said:
Portugal was issuing them to their army + navy well before the 1942 Mausers - testing began in 1902 + procurement of grip safety models began before WWI -

The Army was issued .30 Luger pistols of the 1906 pattern in 1909(contract of 3.500 pistols). The Navy had a contract of 500 pistols in 9mm of the 1906 pattern fulfilled in 1910/1911.

Edit. My M2 Army contract.

runscott · Feb 28, 2020

CZU said:
Yes there are, I wouldn't use any 9mm +P varieties. Mine like S&B and Winchester White Box.

My safety concerns were more about preparation for shooting the gun-I have plenty of normal 9mm 124 and 114 FMJ ammo.

I've been breaking it down and putting it back together, to make sure it's going to function correctly, but I've gotten different results;e.g-the last time I put it back together I had to use a screwdriver (wrapped in cloth) to get the take-down lever to go down. I'm at a point now where it 'cocks' (the toggle goes up and stops, then I can pull the trigger to simulate firing).

Breaking it down to a point where you would need a punch tool to remove the smaller pins, all the parts look good, as if it was cleaned properly within the last few decades. My plan is to clean it with Hoppes, grease some of the metal-to-metal areas, and then take it to the range once the new mec-gar magazine arrives.

schutzen-jager · Feb 28, 2020

Kurusu said:
The Army was issued .30 Luger pistols of the 1906 pattern in 1909(contract of 3.500 pistols). The Navy had a contract of 500 pistols in 9mm of the 1906 pattern fulfilled in 1910/1911.

Edit. My M2 Army contract.

plus another 756 delivered between 1935 + 1940 in both 7.65 + 9mm -

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

schutzen-jager said:
plus another 756 delivered between 1935 + 1940 in both 7.65 + 9mm -

I think the 7,65 you are referring(a little over 550) were not for the Army but for a paramilitay law enforcement agency called GNR(Guarda Nacional Republicana) and are so marked over the chamber. In between the wars the Army was also using Savage 1907 pistols in .32 ACP bought in 1915.

The Navy did in fact buy a few(no ideia of the quanties) 9mm from Mauser still of the 1906 patern and yet another few of the 08 pattern but they have no special Navy markings. In fact the only tell tale signs of them being Portuguese are the words "seguranca" instead of "gesichert" and "carregada" instead of "geladen".

schutzen-jager · Feb 28, 2020

first procurement
5000 1906 models for royal army
1000 model 1906 for royal navy
second procurement for Republic navy
1000 model 1906
only 564 for GNR by Mauser -

first Savage order was shipped before WWI 9 12/23/16 + 1/10/17 not between the wars -
total purchase 1,150 units all procured by Direccao Material de Guerra Marinha for both navy + army use in 7.65 -

bgrafsr · Feb 28, 2020

Kurusu said:
We have used the P.08 as a service pistol from 1943 to 1961(they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead instead of the German Army) as the main sidearm, and as a secondary sidearm up to 1975, after we adopted the P.38 in 1961.

Our own defense industries(now gone I'm afraid) used a 115 grs(7,45 grams) bullet that was tailored for the P.08 and was NATO certified. They were of excellent quality.

Still got a box left from a 1999 lot .

I burned thousands of these things.

Now why would you burn them, rather than shoot them?

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

schutzen-jager said:
first procurement
5000 1906 models for royal army
1000 model 1906 for royal navy
second procurement for Republic navy
1000 model 1906
only 564 for GNR by Mauser -

first Savage order was shipped before WWI 9 12/23/16 + 1/10/17 not between the wars -
total purchase 1,150 units all procured by Direccao Material de Guerra Marinha for both navy + army use in 7.65 -

Your numbers for the Navy Lugers are doubled. There was only on contract for the Navy. The problem was there was a revolution that ended the Monarchy when only roughly half the contract have been delivered.

I never said the Savage contract was from between the wars. I said the Savage pistols were in use by the Army between the wars. You think they throw them away after the war?

Do you know the size of this Country?

That's way too many guns. The Army bought 3500 pistols not 5000. There were not that many officcers in the Army and the Navy combined at the time.

schutzen-jager · Feb 28, 2020

[In between the wars the Army was also using Savage 1907 pistols in .32 ACP bought in 1915.] - ??? -

{ they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead of the German Army)
actualy last of commercial , not military production for contract sales -!!!

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

schutzen-jager said:
[In between the wars the Army was also using Savage 1907 pistols in .32 ACP bought in 1915.] - ??? -

Bought in 1915. Germany declared war on Portugal on March 1916, before that we were non beligerant

Edit. I'll try to make it more clear. They were bought before we entered the war and were used thereafter until we reequiped the Army with 9mm pistols. Is that clear enough for you now?

{ they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead of the German Army)
actualy last of commercial , not military production for contract sales -!!!

Kindly explain then, why those "commercials" have German military acceptance marks instead of commercial proofmarks that you can find even in the wartime German police pistols. And also why a P.08 marked pistol in the m block with the serial # 350 was Portuguese while the P.08 marked pistol with the serial # 15 was German Army and why both have the eagle over swastika fire proof on the right side of the barrel and 2 x eagle over 655 and again the eagle over swastika on the right side of the receiver.

Kurusu · Feb 28, 2020

bgrafsr said:
Now why would you burn them, rather than shoot them?

I burned them inside my P.08.

2152hq · Feb 28, 2020

runscott said:
;e.g-the last time I put it back together I had to use a screwdriver (wrapped in cloth) to get the take-down lever to go down. ...

Breaking it down to a point where you would need a punch tool to remove the smaller pins, all the parts look good, as if it was cleaned properly within the last few decades. ...

Always have the bbl and toggle assembly pushed all the way to the rear when pulling the TD lever down or try to push it back into position on re-assembly.
Additionally on re-assembly make sure the side plate is installed correctly and is sitting all the way down. If it's not, it's usually the front leg that is up high just a little and the TD can't be pushed easily back into position.

Unless there is a real need to disassemble parts further than the Field disassembly of the breech, toggle and frame, it's not generally worth the effort.
If they are damaged or worn and need attention that's different, then the disassembly is needed.
Plus there are a couple parts that can be damaged trying to remove and/or replace if you're not familiar with them.
Most are straight forward gunsmith removal/install types though.

Have fun,,very unique gun the Luger is.

FWIW, you don't have to dry fire them to let/relax the firing pin down.
With the unloaded pistol cocked, magazine removed,,let the toggle down slowly keeping a grasp on the toggles.
As the breech closes, at a point approx where the breech block is about 1/8" from being closed you'll feel a slight hang up in the forward motion.
That is the firing pin being engaged by the sear and being cocked.

To bypass that cocking action simply hold the trigger back as the breech block passes that point.
The firing pin will not be cocked.
The breech will close and the firing pin will be down & uncocked.

(It's not a good idea to dry fire a Luger anyway. The firing pin tip is rather fragile in the design. I don't recommend dry fire on any firearm.
On a pistol like a Luger, if you must to check function for instance,,a flat faced hardwood dowel held firmly down the bore against the breech face buffers the firing pin quite well)

runscott · Feb 28, 2020

2152hq said:
Always have the bbl and toggle assembly pushed all the way to the rear when pulling the TD lever down or try to push it back into position on re-assembly.
Additionally on re-assembly make sure the side plate is installed correctly and is sitting all the way down. If it's not, it's usually the front leg that is up high just a little and the TD can't be pushed easily back into position.

Unless there is a real need to disassemble parts further than the Field disassembly of the breech, toggle and frame, it's not generally worth the effort.
If they are damaged or worn and need attention that's different, then the disassembly is needed.
Plus there are a couple parts that can be damaged trying to remove and/or replace if you're not familiar with them.
Most are straight forward gunsmith removal/install types though.

Have fun,,very unique gun the Luger is.

FWIW, you don't have to dry fire them to let/relax the firing pin down.
With the unloaded pistol cocked, magazine removed,,let the toggle down slowly keeping a grasp on the toggles.
As the breech closes, at a point approx where the breech block is about 1/8" from being closed you'll feel a slight hang up in the forward motion.
That is the firing pin being engaged by the sear and being cocked.

To bypass that cocking action simply hold the trigger back as the breech block passes that point.
The firing pin will not be cocked.
The breech will close and the firing pin will be down & uncocked.

(It's not a good idea to dry fire a Luger anyway. The firing pin tip is rather fragile in the design. I don't recommend dry fire on any firearm.
On a pistol like a Luger, if you must to check function for instance,,a flat faced hardwood dowel held firmly down the bore against the breech face buffers the firing pin quite well)

Thanks - that's all great stuff. Also, it makes me feel better because last night I was able to figure out most of the things you described. One thing that was different is that I am unable to pull the toggle assembly all the way back. When I said I got it into a position where it could be dry fired, I wasn't actually dry-firing it - I was releasing the toggle as you described. I understand what you are saying about taking it completely apart and the problems that could cause for a new Luger guy like me. I also noticed what you described about the side-plate - quite a quirky piece.

I'm going to start by just cleaning it without breaking it down further, then trying to fire it once the mec-gar mags arrive. I decided to take a break from it today, as my thumb feels like I've been pulling nails by hand. Instead I enjoyed a very pleasant morning at the range shooting my new P320 M17 Bravo and my old 1984 P226.

Andyd · Feb 29, 2020

Kurusu said:
We have used the P.08 as a service pistol from 1943 to 1961(they were actually byf 42 P.08 Mausers that were delivered to us instead instead of the German Army) as the main sidearm, and as a secondary sidearm up to 1975, after we adopted the P.38 in 1961.

Our own defense industries(now gone I'm afraid) used a 115 grs(7,45 grams) bullet that was tailored for the P.08 and was NATO certified. They were of excellent quality.

Still got a box left from a 1999 lot .

I burned thousands of these things.

My point wasn't so much that 124 grain bullets were to be used but to give an idea of the powerlevel and energy that the 9 mm Parabellum was originally loaded to. Here are the numbers in lb-ft: 39.18 mkg = 283.4 lb-ft.

By the time that Mauser had started to manufacture the frames for the P.08, the metallurgy had improved significantly but in WWI vintage Lugers, I would stay with a moderate load.

Kurusu · Feb 29, 2020

@ Andyd.

You definetely have a point there. The truth is, that even If I do have a WWI 1916 DWM P.08, I very seldomly shoot it. And when I do I use my mild reloads.

Andyd · Feb 29, 2020

Kurusu said:
@ Andyd.

You definetely have a point there. The truth is, that even If I do have a WWI 1916 DWM P.08, I very seldomly shoot it. And when I do I use my mild reloads.

I even load the ammo for my 1942 Mauser only to moderate levels. The days when I loaded up .44 Magnum to +P+P+ and shot it in the Super Redhawk are long gone, even gave that SRH to my son at Christmas - with some of that ammo that was left.

runscott · Mar 1, 2020

Here is the chewed-up top of my magazine, while inserted. It's even crooked.

Kurusu · Mar 1, 2020

runscott said:
Here is the chewed-up top of my magazine, while inserted. It's even crooked.

Yep! That magazine is the likely culprit. The lips can be reformed, but it takes a good expert. The Mec-gar is the way to go. Or... an original late type. But they will cost you.

On the left a DWM from 1915, on the right a WWII by Mauser.

Erfurt Luger advice needed

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