AR question - binary triggers and latchless charging handles

A binary trigger fires one round when the trigger is pulled and another round when the trigger is released.

THAT much I knew. Sorry, I should have said that. Mea culpa.

I really want to know what they're good for. I was unclear. My apology.

I know they are ATF legal but they sound might dangerous to my way of thinking.
 
I've only messed with one binary trigger. I don't know the brand. I installed one for my brother. It seemed to be quality. I installed it in his AR. Not too complicated. It makes breaking down for cleaning a bit different. It pretty much turns the gun into a 2 shot burst capability. It looks factory when done and just enables the selector to switch to the auto position where you get the 2 shot burst. You can pull the trigger and then hold it back and engage the safety thereby avoiding the second shot. I don't recall what happens if you then switch the selector back to auto. Hopefully you have to pull the trigger again.

What are they good for? Fun I reckon, that and ammo sales. Might work good for killing a bunch of wild hogs in a herd.
 
What are binaries good for? Why double-taps of course!
They are also good for effectively doubling your rate of fire since every pull-release of the trigger fires two instead of one. So instead of maybe 2-4 rounds per you can easily send 4-8 downrange instead.
Still not automatic fire, but much more rapid fire.

Not sure what the benefit of a latchless charging handle would be, other than maybe quicker smoother charging that first round when you change mags? At least that is my first thought.
 
There are a couple different types available. I installed a Franklin Armory BFS III in one of my 9mm ARs. The BFSIII will run with a standard bolt carrier group and when properly matched with the recoil buffer and spring you won't be able to "outrun" the bolt carrier.

In single mode it's not a bad trigger - better than the average military trigger, with a reasonably light, crisp pull. In binary mode it's light enough that you can keep light pressure on it, ride the reset and get the equivalent of full auto bursts from it (see the video below).

Binary Firing System GenIII AR15 Trigger Pack


https://video-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/90813305_612549306143192_1467430092698288128_n.mp4?_nc_cat=103&vs=8906f286daecddef&_nc_vs=HBksFQAYJEdIbXphUVhZMGN3LUhDMENBQUFBQUFEbFcxMFVidjRHQUFBRhUAAsgBABUAGCRHTW1iWkFXSkpEc2tHaDhDQUFBQUFBQldpMjgtYnY0R0FBQUYVAgLIAQBLAYgScHJvZ3Jlc3NpdmVfcmVjaXBlATEVACUAHAAAGA8xMDAwMDQ0Njc1MjE1MzAW0IbhlsCQzAUVAigCQzMYC3Z0c19wcmV2aWV3HBdAJOp%2B%2Bdsi0RgYZGFzaF92NF9ocTVfZnJhZ18yX3ZpZGVvEgAYGHZpZGVvcy52dHMuY2FsbGJhY2sucHJvZBkcFQAVhPkCACgSVklERU9fVklFV19SRVFVRVNUGwSIFW9lbV90YXJnZXRfZW5jb2RlX3RhZwZvZXBfaGQTb2VtX3JlcXVlc3RfdGltZV9tcw0xNTkyMTQ5NjQ5MzY5DG9lbV9jZmdfcnVsZQd1bm11dGVkE29lbV9yb2lfcmVhY2hfY291bnQDNTM5JQIA&_nc_sid=a6057a&efg=eyJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6Im9lcF9oZCJ9&_nc_oc=AQkVOdXv4jzl2Aph9ipN1uw1vXG3yGphgfYicyglM595tk1A1PP_-Bbpx2T39WaI_Tg&_nc_ht=video-iad3-1.xx&oh=7a48cdc3214da31c816b07ff63c07533&oe=5EE670A2&_nc_rid=57b4ea2cd428492&dl=1

What is it good for? Well...it's good for having some fun.

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The other binary trigger option is the Fostech Echo. There are pros and cons.

The Echo has a horrible trigger pull - long, heavy and spongy, and it requires a full auto bolt carrier to work.

The rate of fire of the Echo is slower than the BFS III, but the Echo doesn't require any tuning.

The Echo drops in as a unit, while the BFS III takes a monkey trained to a slightly higher standard to install. If you can install a typical AR-15 trigger, you can install a BFSIII.

One potential concern with the BFS III is the potential for the hammer to follow the bolt carrier forward. That will not result in an out of battery fire. It will however require you to to cycle the charging handle to recock the hammer. That's where the tuning comes in. With a suitably heavy buffer it's not a problem at all and I've never had it happen.

Worst case, you'll release the trigger too soon and have it get caught by the disconnector, skipping the fire on release shot, meaning you'll have to pull the trigger to fire the next round.

All in all I recommend the BFS III.
 
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My experience is with the Fostech Echo. It was purchsed after researhing the Echo and the Franklin BFS.

Got one of the first runs made, and later upgraded it to an Echo II. No, it DOES NOT require a special bolt carrier to function. (The original Echo did, and the modified bolt carriers were suppled by Fostech with the purchase of the trigger at no extra charge. With current production a regular AR or M16 bolt carrier works. This is the reason for the Echo II).

The Franklin BFS binary can be outrun by someone with a fast trigger finger, causing the hammer to follow the bolt home and leaving an unfired round in the chamber. This stops the music until the operating rod handle is functioned to eject the unfired round and re-cock the hammer. How fast the rifle functions is purely a function of the operator's trigger finger. In that respect there is no difference in speed that I can determine between the Echo and the BFS.

Given the BFS getting outrun by a fast trigger finger, as can be seen in several on-line videos, I went with the Fostech unit. Also, many BFS users have seen a need to tune the trigger (balance some of the springs) where the Fostech unit runs pretty well right from intial installation. Again, a fast trigger finger cannot outrun the Echo.

In fairness I would presume that Franklin Armory has worked to improve their unit over the past few years since I bought my Echo, perhaps eliminating some of the issues mentioned, but I have not kept up with their product since going with the Fostech product. Perform due diligence. There are many product comparissons on line.

My Echo runs well with 5.56, .300 BLK, 9x19mm uppers and (surprisingly) .22LR.

When one decides to try .22 rimfire in a dedicated upper, the situation reverses somewhat, with the BFS probably superior to the Echo. Where the Echo can be problematical, the BFS has a reputation for pretty easy .22 rimfire function. That said, I was lucky with my Echo unit, and after making a simple modification to the CMMG full-auto sear trip that is needed (no it does not make the gun full auto, just makes the binary function operate) my rifle works well (or at least as well as any .22 rimfire with an occasional faulty dud round functions). Lots of fun, and cheap! A Lightnin' Loader fron McFadden Machine allows one to load a 27-32 round Black Dog magazine in about 10 seconds, helping to spend more money faster.

There was an aftermarket spring that greatly improved the original Echo's trigger pull that is probably still available. Quite nice actually, with no change in reliability. The current generation Echos are pretty good as they come.

Every time I have taken this to the range for friends or family to try, flipping the selector to binary produces facial expressions that suggest they have just done something really naughty, and got away with it. It's a giggle switch. The only reservations people have is that ammo gets expensive. Hence the attraction of shooting .22 rimfire.

Is it dangerous to use a binary trigger? No more (or less) dangerous than intentionally firing any other double tap. If for some weird reason the second round must be canceled, simply continue to hold the trigger back and put the rifle on safe or semi, and release the trigger. When one decides to resume shooting, flip to semi or binary and continue as desired. It's a well thought out system.

What is the utility of these triggers? Do you need one? As mentioned above they produce a quick double tap. However, at between $400-$500 for a binary trigger, you can instead buy a truly superior AR15 trigger for half that amount and spend the balance on ammuntion to perfect your double tap.

About a third of my military career was spent in special ops (where personally I did absolutely nothing noteworthy). I did however work closely with some people from whom I learned stuff. One thing they taught me was that they almost never use full auto from a shoulder-fired weapon. The occasions where they do use it usually involve an ambush where they want to produce the maximum fear and confusion in an enemy, usually while trying to break contact from a pursuit. Hardly something that the typical defensive carbine user or 3-gun competitor would need.

So to the extent that a binary trigger simulates full-auto, consider it primarily a range toy that helps turn money into noise. Without the hassle of a tax stamp.

Oh, and they are a celebration of American ingenuity.;)
 

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Love you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all I needed to know!
What is the utility of these triggers? Do you need one? As mentioned above they produce a quick double tap. However, at between $400-$500 for a binary trigger, you can instead buy a truly superior AR15 trigger for half that amount and spend the balance on ammuntion to perfect your double tap.

Thanks, shipmate. I do NOT need one! :D
 
Because threads suck without pictures.
My Saint Pistol with the Fostech II I installed.
Nothing but great things to say about the Fostech II.
 

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Just saw your post while looking for some info myself, and it really got me thinking. Binary triggers are something that fires once when you pull the trigger and again when you release it. You are able to shoot between 4 and 8 shots in quick succession rather than just 2 to 4. It's not automatic fire, but it makes shooting more fun. Do you like that? If so, check out the Franklin Armory Binary Trigger options.
And the standard latchless charging handles replace their standard one with a variant not having a latch, making for smooth and easy charging during reloads, especially when changing mags.
 
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