What makes a top tier AR vs a middle and low tier AR??? Serious question.
I mean the parts are pretty much the same but different makers. What makes a carefully assembled AR using good parts one at a time by Terd Ferguson gunsmith at law any less desirable than one assembled by minimally skilled assembly line workers at one of the "name brand" assemblers. I mean there really isn't any real gunsmithing involved-just putting together parts with minimal fitting.
I mean let's not forget that the ones used by the "real operators" are sourced out to the lowest bidder to begin with.
I mean I have a nice AR made by a shop in Mississippi that I don't know is still in business but these boys are machinists and have put together a nice looking well fitted product that goes bang every time I pull the trigger and puts the holes where I aim. Chrome plated barrel and chamber with a wylde chamber. It is tight, doesn't rattle when shaken and nothingvfalls off. So what am I missing by not owning a $2,000 XP1000 gold edition assembly line weapon by COLT or Daniel Defense ow whomever

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Forum consigliere

Some folks are into the high end ARs just like some have to spend $2000 on a 1911 when, for me at least, an entry level unit works and performs much the same.

Guess its a personal preference thing. For me, my favorite and most highly valued ARs are a mid 70s Colt SP1 and an Armalite AR 180.

And I don't think you're missing anything.

I'm not a black rifle guy but the first thing that is helpful to understand with a question like this is the law of diminishing returns. An extremely easy example for many folks is the 1911 pistol. Rock Island or the Ruger SR-1911 are fine running and shooting pistols and they are (kind of) nearly (almost) as good as a Wilson, Baer or Brown and you can get them at one-third to one-fifth the price of the Wilson, Baer or Brown.

But if you are not at all familiar with what you get from a Wilson, Baer or Brown, then you might never "get it" when it comes to where all the extra money goes. And there's nothing wrong with that, most folks can go their whole 70-90 years on this globe without a high-buck 1911 and that's absolutely fine, but these same folks are obnoxious and clueless when they cross that line and try to tell other folks that the Wilson, Baer and Brown "aren't worth it."

The first place an AR goes up in money is with the fire control parts, basically the trigger and all the parts that make it work. Then it's the BCG. Then it's the barrel. Then it's the sights and all the accessories. When you begin to add up all these bits here and there, this is where the price tag climbs.

A $2,000 AR-15 makes very little sense for a first time AR buyer in my opinion. Likewise, I think it's silly for a first time 1911 owner to purchase a Wilson. I wouldn't steer a first time car buyer to an $80,000 Mercedes either, but everyone finds their way I suppose.

It's the roll marks.

You're not missing anything IMO. I can build one sourcing quality parts online and auction sites for about $500-$600 and will do the same thing as a $2000 new build.

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Thread Killer.

Accessories are the biggest difference. A plain jane AR-15 will do everything most people need. Next step up would be a high end barrel which could cost as much as half the price of a entry level AR, then a good drop in trigger another 150 and up, the list goes on and on. Bottom line will these things make for a better AR depends on what your looking for they will improve the overall performance but if your looking for a AR to defend yourself with don't waste your money just buy more ammo..

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SWHF #595

There have been some very hard lessons learned over the years regarding quality under significant to hard use. When Pat Rogers was alive, he had a lot of data and photos resulting the volume of shooting done in classes. (I did the math once, I figure 500K rounds minimum downrange every year for over 20 years, but that might be low.) He showed a LOT of broken/failed rifles that resulted from relatively moderate levels of shooting (a 3 day class was 1300-1500 rounds total).

The devil is in the details and consistent quality is a big issue. Some of the problem areas that I recall were the chamber (not actually cut for 5.56X45, but .223, even though marked 5.56) (went to a Dean Caputo class run 2 days before a Pat class in 2008, and darned near every rifle there had to be opened up with a Ned Christiansen chamber reamer). Proper staking of parts that needed to be staked (carrier key IIRC is a real problem area) was often lacking.

Pat said in his later years that the quality of rifles brought to classes had improved as a result of getting the word out. Understand that this is highly contextual. There were not guns for show, but for fighting as a cop or military member, or personal defense. Consistent top quality was not an option - it was a mandate. This colored his perspective.

I learned a lot from Pat, obviously. I also learned from some of the stuff that happened at classes. I spent a day at one next to a guy who had a franken gun that simply was not reliable, even though most people would consider the suppliers reputable. It was frustrating for the shooter, and for everyone around him. He eventually took one of Pat's loaner BCM carbines - and the change in learning etc. was huge. A quality carbine should easily go 10,000 round or more without cleaning or any real attention - just lube. I am sure that you can with a little google time find a couple of articles about the progress of "Filthy Fourteen" (the rack number on that rifle) it went somewhere over 40,000 rounds with only lube and a little PM.

I don't shoot as I did then, as I am retired from LE. My BCM duty rifle has only 5-8000 rounds through it. That's nothing for a hard use shooter. If you are not using it that way (and most folks don't), you will see what Pat and other saw. I don't think I ever had a malfunction (a stoppage in the feed cycle is a malfunction - jam goes on toast) that was not set up for training purposes. I stayed with good rifles; good mags (mostly PMags) and good ammo (almost always Black Hills), and run the rifle WET. Dirty does not matter - dry is fatal. Remember MEAL: Magazine, Extractor, Ammo, Lube.

I have spent a lot of money on the rifles, mags, ammo (not much on Lube - I use SLIP products most) and optics/mounts (Aimpoint in a Larue Mount - period). It was a matter of priorities. If I had to use the rifle for real, it might only be a few rounds, but those rounds HAD to go where they needed to go. I don't waste time and money on boats or golf. I also used to be hard about fitness training, AND I AM ALIVE TODAY AS A RESULT. (I had some health issues resulting from genetic stuff in 2008, and survived what most would not have because of my lifestyle, and the nature of those issues is progressive, but I do not show the deterioration that almost all do for the same reasons. Most of my activities are optional - exercise is not.)

If you are not looking at the issue the way I did as I learned from mentors, you likely will not come to the same conclusion. That's fine.

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NHI, 10-8.

I normally do not even look at a gun unless it is pristine,, but,,
I was attracted to this "zombie killer" truck gun at a gun show,,

It came with a 22LR adapter, a dozen beat up 5.56 magazines, site adjustment tool, broken shell extractor,, and a half dozen other attachments,,

I paid less than what four bulk packs of 22LR cost these days,,

I have no fear of scratching the gun, or taking it appart.



(The Zombie Killer engraving on the other side is even better than the right side!! )

This is truly the perfect first AR,,

And, best of all, it shoots great with either 5.56, or 22LR ammo!!

Difference in quality and precision of parts fit, maybe thirty years ago.

Nowadays "top tier" just means someone paid more than they needed to,
and got nothing but a brand name for it.

Even clutz outfits with no prior experience in firearms, successfully
turn out competent ARs these days. None of the data is hard
to get.

I’m no pro and have owned and shot several varieties of the AR. They’ve all functioned as designed and many have been very accurate.
My only thought as to manufacture is durability. If it’s only a range gun, most any will work fine. Shoot the heck out of it, get it dirty and depend on it for your life takes more convincing.
It reminds me of something a marine mechanic told me...” Buy a Mercury if you want to get there first, buy a Johnson if you want to get back “
I will say that there is no reason an “off brand” AR won’t perform the same as a big brand name.
I just won’t know until it’s proved itself.

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“Look life in its iron face”

I think it's an excellent question, but doesn't have a simplistic answer.

The variable is a) perceived value and b) human beings.

I only own one AR, a tried and true Stag Arms Model 2 that, as long as it's lubed, eats what it's fed and is more than accurate enough for any SD or sporting use. Have previously owned Colt 6920s and this Stag runs just as well as they did.

Doesn't measure up to someone else's idea or standards? Don't care. Don't have to.

I'm not an AR fan but I do have a couple. One a Rock River 20", the other has a Ruger lower and a Rock River 16" upper. Both shoot good. Not the cheapest but way under the high dollar stuff. I wouldn't know the difference.

I am not an AR fan, but about 2 years ago saw the "need" for a SHTF rifle. I found a DPMS stock AR (flat top) for under $600, added a 2-7 Vortex scope and a sling. Acquired a dozen mags. Acquired 500 rds of 50 gr ball, and loaded up 500 rds of 50 gr HP. Both rounds shoot to POA and group about 1" at 100 yds. The trigger is a little gritty, but I can handle it. I see no reason to spend any more.

Now, If I was still shooting competition, and wanted an AR to shoot out to 600 yds it would have a lot more bells and whistles, similar to the Rem 700's I shoot for Prairie Dogs.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I enjoy shooting the AR's and have built a few. I have built several in 223 and also 300 BO and a 450 Bushmaster. I use the Anderson lowers for them most times and have used different chrome lined barrels. The biggest upgrades I use on mine are triggers and optics. All the ones I have shoot very accurate and are reliable using my reloads. Parts are easy enough to change if needed or wanted so I don't buy high priced AR's .

I think we have a winner. Buy the rifle you like. You'll be fine . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I've got at least six AR's sitting in the rifle safe. I've owned probably another dozen over the last 25+ years. Yeah, the Daniel Defense is a true cloverleaf shooter at 100 yards. But the Olympic Arms Ultra Match I put together as my first AR back in 1992 will almost match the DD. As far as dollar investment goes, I have $200 in 1992 Dollars in the home built Oly, equivalent to about $373 in 2020 Dollars. The DD I bought Used/Un-fired three years ago. Seller needed cash and I had $500 on me. His loss, my gain.

As others have said, buy magazines, lots of them. They are the most breakage prone part of the AR platform. Buy a reloading press and lots of components. I'm sitting on about 80 magazines, mostly 30 round PMAGS, some 20 round PMAGS, 2 60 round PMAG drums and the rest being a mix of 20 and 30 round military mags. Honestly, I prefer the 20 round mags as I can still shoot from the prone position with the 20 round mags.

Loaded ammo, about 20K rounds with enough components to reload another 10K rounds.

Yeah, I KIND of like the AR platform.

Class III

Cajunlawyer, Its nice to give advise to a Lawyer, for me its usually the other way around. To answer your question its all about the receiver and barrel and trigger. As with 1911's you have machined, forged or stamped. You're a smart guy so you will get it. "Ed Brown vrs. Rock Island" I just built a ar15 it about 95% all Wilson Combat. I started with machined matching upper and lower and a 20" Wilson Combat match grade SS barrel. For comparison I own a Smith &Wesson M&P ar15. The S&W feels like a "toy" compared to the Wilson Combat. Sure as others have mentioned you can get a "low end" AR and they are good shooters, but like most AR guys you will be upgrading and changing out trigger, barrel handguards. I say ether buy or build a quality AR that you would be happy with.

If they are assembled competently there is no functional difference.

Back in the 1970s the US Army had heavy use M16A1s in the basic training posts. According to the guys at post maintenance, they had more rifles from General Motors with fewer problems than any other brand. The biggest problems were Drill Sergeants exceeding their levels of maintenance and just pesky gun abuse.
Geoff
Who notes that was a long time ago and far away.

I think that when I bought mine only one manufacturer produced them.

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No life story has happy end.

All of mine are Colt. I felt they were the best, and have never had any type of problem with any of them.

A quality barrel, trigger, and bolt control group are where it's at. Everything else is just window dressing.

I've got 2 unshot Colt's, a well used Olympic HB M4gery and a scoped Palmetto State Stainless upper/ Spike's lower. Either of the "user" rifles will fire 5 magazines without a hiccup and keep a pretty small group at 100 yds. I think the Colt's will do the same, gave one to my son and he has shot it extensively, zero issues. If'n I was in the market, Colt's are $1,100 OTD at the gunstore my buddy works at. Since generic AR's are $750 minimum, I'd go the extra. They are supposedly the equivalent of the 6920 but I remember 1994 when Colt's put out "post ban" rifles hastily assembled. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Mine are also Colts. For some reason, others are quick to criticize Colt products and those that buy them. I don't know what "top tier" is, if there is such a thing.

Facsimile ARs may be as good or better in some respects than a Colt. I don't know anything about the copies as I've never owned one. I've found Colt ARs to be of high quality, accurate, and they work fine, out-of-the-box and unmodified except for scopes (with plain crosshairs).

Colt ARs are probably easier to sell than replicas and they retain value well.

A friend of mine is an armorer for the state agency here. The armorers were not consulted about the purchase of ARs when the agency decided to move into this century and get rifles for (more or less) all of their uniformed patrol personnel. The specs were awful, and the idiot who bought them did not do any good research. He bought a substandard product and they have had preventable trouble. Worst example I can recall is one rifle that had a broken bolt after 20 rounds because the rifle they bought used "batch" testing instead of individual. Doofus should have been removed from the position and put on 0100-0900 road kill inventory.

The management (which is comprised mostly of similar intellectually disabled clowns) did not get rifle mounted red dots or flashlights and in fact prohibited them, and also removed authorization for personally owned departmental approved rifles that had been ok before. Shooting a rifle with a handheld flashlight is not funny and is a damned good way to fail under serious conditions. This stuff matters.

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NHI, 10-8.

I bought a Rock River AR probably 12 years ago from a dealer who was also a Rock River employee. He really knew AR's. It had a match trigger and a 20" stainless medium Predator barrel. The barrel might have been made by Wilson for Rock River. The seller assured me it would shoot 1/2 minute of angle which I took with a grain of salt at the time. I was able to fire several 100 yard three shot groups of 1/2" bench rested with a quality Leupold scope. I took the targets to the seller at the next gun show and he said "if you handload and play with the load you can pretty well get them to drop in one hole". I was plenty satisfied with the 1/2" group and never tried to improve on it. It was good enough for who it was for! It looks like that same model rifle is still available for about the same price. A Colt Match H-bar I used to own struggled to get 1 1/2" groups under the same conditions.

When I first saw the title of this thread I groaned. However, after reading Caj's post, I can come up with a couple of items.

1. Quality Assurance and Quality Control. When parts get made there are production tolerances and specifications about materials and heat treat. QA is making sure the paperwork for the parts matches the design specs. QC is making sure the parts actually meet the requirements.

Now, during any production run, some parts are going to meet all standards. Some may be a wee bit off, some may be shall we say more than a wee bit off. A top quality producer should scrap all the parts that don't meet all parameters. But, not every producer can afford to do that. As a result the wee bit off parts get sold at less than market, the more than a wee bit off can get sold at much less than market.

The late Dorthy Sayers had her fictional Lord Peter Whimsey make a comment that the "The quality guarantees the name, it don't work the other way around." Truer words were likely never written.

Now, in addition to the comments above, a quality final product manufacturer will do what's called receipt inspection. They randomly test samples of the various incoming parts to make darn sure that they're getting what they paid for. OTOH, the guys who're manufacturing to a price point may well skip this as they either know or suspect they're not getting top quality parts. Or, they can't afford to do receipt inspections. During a visit to Douglas Barrels long ago, they commented that they started doing receipt inspections on barrel steel after getting burned by what was later claimed to be a mistake in the steel suppliers shipping department.

Related but slightly off topic: Some years back one of the claims of the "gotta be mil-spec" fanatics was that the receiver extension of a mil-spec build had "full diameter threads" and the commercial ones did not. Being curious, I went down to the training section where the semi-annual detail strip and inspection was going on. I measured the threaded section of 20 Colt receiver extensions (buffer tubes). Exactly ONE was full diameter. The rest were either same or less thread contact than a commercial version.

2. Rolls Royce quality. If you're able/willing to pay for a Rolls, it'll be a much finer quality build. They're known for even making their own nuts & bolts and likely hold much tighter tolerances than over the counter products. However, most of us are quite happy with a Chevy, Ford or Toyota. Most of us would hardly know the difference, but there is a snob appeal that resonates with quite a number of people.

Frankly, in an item that may well need to function in less than perfect conditions and with less than exacting maintenance, something less than perfection of fit is preferable.

3. Examples of the above: After 9/11 my former employer ran out and bought a bunch of brand X ARs. Given our CQB training block, we soon discovered that after that 13 week block, the brand X rifles used in that evolution needed the barrels, bolts and all fire control parts replaced. We also had a few bolt carriers that were magic: they could make gas rings disappear. In later years, when various sales reps showed up, we used that block as an example of our use. Quite a few sales reps went out for coffee/bathroom break and never came back.

I've seen enough Colt's break that I'm not a fan. However, at least they've since dropped the "If it breaks, you can keep all the extra parts, no extra charge." warranty.

The lack of QA/QC is one of the reasons I've never been a fan of build it yourself AR building. The cost of the tools and gauges needed to do it right are another factor.

Tolerances, parts made in house and hand fitment I believe.
Those saying there's basically no difference in quality parts, it's just the roll marks or it's just basically an ego stroker have really never handled, disassembled and reassembled a high end AR IMO.
I have the Springfield Armory Saint .556 pistol, which is by no means a "cheap bargin" AR and a Daniel Defense AR .300BO pistol that are considered to be one of your higher end AR's. Even though many of the component's, ie chromed lined barrels, proprietary picatinny rails, blah, blah, blah the list goes on and are probably close to the exact same thing(?) there's a night and day difference in the fitment and tolerances. Both are MIL spec, but the items that have the tiniest amount of play on my Saint are precision fit and zero play on the Daniel, you really feel the difference when you pick it up, take it apart, put it back together, pure precision, but Daniel is also known for making their own parts down to the screws and spring in house too. I also have a Palmetto Arms AR rifle in my possession my son built from new parts and it's nothing compared to the Saint in fitment, but PA are the lower budget priced guns too. Just my observation.
This deserves a picture.

Attached Images

IMG_1355.jpg (147.2 KB, 30 views)

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Here is what I like with an American Rifle:

Clean crisp trigger
Hogue grip
Ace Skeleton stock
Flat top picatinny rail
Comfortable forearm
Red dot sight
Backup iron sights
Inverted flowerpot
Ambidextrous safety
Shell deflector
Lightweight barrel

Looks like this:

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

You are not missing a thing. Your AR fulfills the requirements that you wanted in your post that I quoted.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Quote: "So what am I missing by not owning a $2,000 XP1000
gold edition assembly line weapon by COLT or Daniel Defense ow whomever"

The question wasn't will it go bang when he shoots it, he was asking what he was missing. Two totally mutually exclusive things.
We were addressing his main question is all.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Soooo, let me ask you this: All things being equal, would you trade your non 'top tier' AR straight up for my DDM4 Carbine?

If not, why not?

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

With no hesitation, I'd make the trade.

Then, I'd flip it and use the funds to make more home built non top tier ARs will do the very same thing at that one does!

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Thread Killer.

Two carbines, two pistols, and an extra upper are in my safe. They range from several thousand rounds down range to a couple of hundred through the newest pistol. They are all inexpensive, and they all work as expected. I can only remember two malfunctions in the 15,000 or so rounds my son and I have put through these weapons. Both were in the same AR, a DTI Sport (very inexpensive carbine). Both were Tula cases that stuck in the chamber.

Two stoppages in years of shooting. Either cheap ARs are pretty reliable or I've been darned lucky. I don't know which.

The ARs in question:

1. DTI Sport which I have changed the upper on.

2. M&P 15 Sport 2 bone stock.

3. 7 inch ATI Omni Hybrid pistol with SBA3 brace and upgraded pistol grip. This one has polymer receivers reinforced with metal at stress points.

4. A 10.5 inch pistol assembled from PSA parts on an Anderson stripped lower.

They are all accurate enough to ring steel at 300 meters. Likely not MOA accurate, but that is not their intended function.

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Or something like that . . .

The quote thing isn't working at the moment. So, Eirc300: no way.

Hate your hand guard, prefer a different angle on the pistol grip, won't accept fold down iron sights, don't know if you have a mid length gas system, doesn't look like an Aimpoint Pro. Also, expect you have a 1-7 twist, also a no go.

It actually does have flip-up BUS (Troy HK style to be exact). You are correct, it is not an Aim Point PRO. It's actually better than that. It's the Aim Point T1 Micro (on a LaRue QD mount). Nothing wrong with a 1/7 twist. It'll hold MOA out to 500 meters with 55 gr to 62 gr 5.56 ammo. Works just fine for my use. One would have to be a fool to not want this AR...assuming they knew anything about AR's in the first place. And I didn't even mention all of the other upgrades (springs, buffer, all ambi controls, trigger group, etc.) Sooo, different strokes for different folks, brother.....

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

I would say those that would answer "No" it doesn't matter Eric, they obviously don't know what that is?
I'd trade two non-tier AR's for that one, but I really appreciate precision made guns too, so I put a different value on them.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

The barrel should probably be #1 or #2 on the list. Cheap barrels are generally not properly stress relieved and they will start walking the point of impact as they warm up.

However, that's often not a priority with many shooters who can't hit the broad side of a barn anyway.

The irony however is that they'll pour money into a high dollar trigger, almost always with a comparatively light trigger pull, when a good service match shooter can still shoot MOA or better with a 4 1/2 pound trigger.

In my experience, there's nothing wrong with a properly manufactured and assembled bolt carrier group. In other words, as long as the Colt/military spec is met, parts are just parts. In short, for most of the people who install a new bolt carrier group, it's a monumental waste of money, unless they bought a very low end, substandard AR-15 (and there are some out there).


Let's talk about the massive contradiction here for a minute.

Anyone who relies on a firearm for self defense of any kind, but doesn't clean it, is an idiot.

The AK 47 is the ultimate example of a purported "never need to clean it rifle", yet Soviet doctrine was to always keep them spotlessly clean. Why? Simple. It may well run when it's dirty, but it'll run better when it's properly cleaned and lubricated.

The point here is why would anyone buy a high end AR-15 and then not clean it after each range session? Just to prove it'll go X number of rounds without cleaning and without a malfunction. That's farm animal stupid if your life depends on that rifle.

It's farm animal stupid anyway as that extra dirt produces more wear on those expensive parts.


We agree on the "run it wet" issue. I recall back in the day when many experts were advising the AR-15/M16/M4 series be run dry. The idea was that running it dry helped keep the bolt, bolt carrier and inside of the upper receiver from collecting as much dust and dirt. That theory never held up even in training and fared even worse in combat. See my comment on mentors below.

See my comments on barrel quality and stability above. It doesn't matter what sight you put on it if the barrel isn't accurate, and more importantly consistent as it warms up.

We can argue sights all day long. I prefer a well made, durable prism sight that will still provide a usable reticle even if the battery or electronics fail.

That's a very authoritarian way to learn. It only works if the "mentor" is *really* an expert, a opposed to someone who is good at marketing himself and has a lot of fans.

Even then you have to qualify that expertise in the context in which it is used and/or is relevant. A few weeks ago I heard someone recount his friend's encounter with a law enforcement officer. Long story short the guy was a combat vet with PTSD issues who was cooking food for homeless vets in a park. The city had an ordinance that made that illegal. The officer rolled and up and advised the guy it was illegal and that he had to stop. The guy wasn't pleased or impressed - none of us would be, as preventing what he was doing - feeding homeless vets - was not the intent of that ordinance.

At that point the officer actually started doing good police work. He told the guy that he'd gotten the call and he had to address it. However, he also said he went off shift in 4 hours and that he'd come back by just before then and if he was still there, he'd have to make an arrest.

That was a good use of officer discretion in enforcing a law that didn't really apply to the situation, and recognizing the situation would resolve itself in an hour or so, as the food supply was limited and lunch was about over.

That use of common sense and discretion also probably saved the officer's life as the vet with serious PTSD issues cooking the food was armed, and had already determined he was not going to stop, and also was not going to be arrested that day. Not a great decision in retrospect on his part, but it was a line he wasn't willing to back away from that day.

The point here is that for way too many years, the wrong kind of experts have been pushing threats to officers, focusing on commensurate military tactics, and stressing the need for officers to take control of the situation - at the expense of officers actually creating situations, tensions and threats where none need exist.

It's the difference between overly strict law enforcement and maintaining order, and decreased focus on order maintenance and de-escalation of situations in preference to just rolling up, taking control (often before the officer even understands what is going on) and insisting on compliance is getting officers - and citizens - needlessly killed.


The same issue of relevance applies to the AR-15, quality, and tactics. Using an example of a carbine course where the focus is on shooting a lot of rounds over a 2-3 day period of time, doesn't have a great deal of relevance to how the vast majority of AR-15s are used, even in law enforcement and most military applications.

Doug M is a real shooter! That is my favorite quote from the above.

And I mostly posted here because I want to be able to find this thread easily to use a number of the important comments above as references. Back in the day I was a dedicated M-14/M1A person and laughed at the AR platform. Then I grew up.

My first was a sexy Bushmaster that my LGS customized for me. A very dear friend acquired it from me but I replaced it with a similar Bushmaster. Then I acquired a basic STAG Arms model and when I say basic I mean it came with a carry handle, and looks pretty much like a GI rifle would look except for the MagPul adjustable stock. Both of these will get some customization - we're waiting for parts ... and waiting ... and waiting. Simple stuff that I like, nothing major.

So, to answer the question posed by my fellow member of the bar, well, the answer is detailed above and those are wonderful replies.

I know.........everyone likes pictures........

Bushmaster:

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Come and take it!!

Gee, I only used one as issued, where issued, for over 20 years in what several manufacturers termed "abusive service". Don't assume facts not in evidence.
Different experiences produce different preferences.

[/QUOTE]

One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the idea that the manufacturers of uppers, lowers, etc. generally do not produce the raw forgings used in these components. Companies like Cerro Forge, Diemaco, FN, Kaiser, and on and on produce these. When looking at an AR, whether it's Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS or whoever I would like to know the company is starting out with a good basic forging, which most do. After that the company may finish things off. Parts like barrels, bolts, carriers and various small part should be scrutinized for quality, ie. magnetic particle testing/heat treating, etc. I believe the S&W experts/collectors here use the same criteria when judging various handguns. I think this holds true for any firearm.

Oh, and don't forget the difference between GIO and GPO.

Parts & testing of said parts (quality of steel, MPI/HP testing, correct stakings, finishes used, etc.).

Colt’s Technical Data Package (TDP) was the standard for years. And these AR's have been going to war for 50 years.

American Rifleman | The MilSpec Definition

Several manufactures have adopted this criteria in their manufacturing process.

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Watch & Pray

Let's be honest, how many owners of $2000+ ARs are going to run them hard? Not that many - lest it get a scratch and or dirty. They're, basically, BBQ guns.

Full disclosure: I have a couple of BBQ gun Colt ARs.

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Thread Killer.

Guilty here, so true. However, we may all be get'n em all scratched up, beaten and dirty eventually?

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Toyota vs. Lexus.

More like Geo or Saturn vs GM.

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Thread Killer.

Heck yea I'd trade-as long as it works Reason being is that down the line I could get more for it than the one I've got
Scratch the surface and you will find a simple man satisfied by simple things

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Forum consigliere

Wanted a Colt.

Bought a Colt.

Still very happy with my Colt.


YMMV

I've a older Colt Match rifle with the heavy barrel. Made some handloads
that were very accurate. Next up is a Colt LE6920 I bought in wal mart just before Sandy Hook. haven't had the access to a local rifle range since most if not all ranges are cloesed due to the virus. But still have some of the older handloads left over so will try those in the carbine. Frank

Well, I have one made by a group called Helanbak out of Columbia MS. Don't know if they are still even in bid'ness. FWIW I have no intention of going to a self defense course kneeling before to the oracle and shooting 10k rounds over three days of tactical training. My thoughts are that a small shop taking the time and care to build a firearm using good parts is going to build a perfectly adequate AR15 that shoots straight every time one pulls the trigger. That is all I need and I am quite satisfied with what I have. If I ever decide to go total commando I will probably get a good builder and commission one that will stand up to everything that can be thrown at it. But at this stage in life, I think this little fat boy is gonna stick with el cheapo and sell it for BIG BUCKS in the coming months if the opportunity presents itself. If that happens, I will tale my Mini14 and A Team it with the factory folder

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Caj, my kids were big on the A-Team way back when. IIRC, they burned truck loads of ammo but never seemed to hit anyone. Hopefully, should it come to that, you'll do better.