Winchester Model 97 12 Ga value question

firefighterjohn · May 24, 2021

I have an opportunity to buy a Winchester Model 97 takedown version with "FULL" stamped on the barrel. It's a widow's consignment. The serial number 7927nn puts it's date as 1924. The barrel/tube and receiver have the same matching serial #s. It has really nice action, wood slide and stock are in good shape with some scratches and dings but no cracks. It's a 20" barrel but from the barrel stamp it has to be a cut-down. It has a brass bead front sight. The receiver still has some bluing and the barrel/tube have more bluing on it. I've never owned or shot a Model 97 but have seen many videos and read articles. Do you think it's worth $700 as a good shooter but not authentic RIOT version with the "CYL" stamp? I don't know if the price is too high for just a fun shooter that's almost 100 years old. Are these nice to collect and shoot? The slam fire capability sounds like a blast! Would you add it to your collection if it was your first Model 97? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John

ColbyBruce · May 24, 2021

I have owned a few. If you have large hands the bolt might eat your knuckle up. Since the barrel has been cut, you could send it off and have it threaded for screw-in chokes for a little versatility.

My brother has my last one, and he did have it threaded. This one dates to 1906.

I think $700.00 is high for an altered gun.

alwslate · May 24, 2021

I have four Winchester 97s, two 12s and two 16s. For an altered one that old $700 is about $250 too high at least. The slam fire feature is vastly over rated for civilian needs. I say pass and don’t look back at $700.

rockquarry · May 24, 2021

I sold one as described in the original post about ten years ago for around $350 or maybe $400 at a gunshow, but these cut down guns may be bringing more nowadays.

I second the advice about working the bolt - keep all flesh as low on the grip as possible!

Drm50 · May 24, 2021

Nice 97s are going higher than M12s. Not counting collector items in either model. The market for 97s is cowboy crowd . They will take a cut off field gun over Chinese knock off. So price will start at clone price. I wouldn’t go to expense of screw ins unless I had reason. I have one saved from Bubba Job with screw ins. My Smith had just got the tooling and did mine dirt cheap for try out.

Charlie Foxtrott · May 24, 2021

Count me in with the crowd that thinks that it is too much.

An all original gun would be worth it but not a cut down one.

LostintheOzone · May 24, 2021

I have one with that same 20" cut down barrel made about 1917. The strange thing is it also has a 30" barrel. Both barrels and receiver have the same serial #. That leads me to believe the 20" barrel was a factory option. Why would someone buy two barrels of the same length and choke from the factory? They probably ordered the 20" from the factory and they just stamped everything with the same serial # at the factory. Something to think about.

Anyway, I would feel like a crook selling mine for more than $500. I suggest going on GB and looking at the prices of those that were sold there.

2152hq · May 24, 2021

Likely a cut-down from a 30" or 32" but just for grins take a simple choke gauge along and slide it in the bore and see what it tells you.
The 'new dime' trick may be good enough to tell.

Winchester made upon special order some wild bbl length and choke combinations for the 97 and the Model 12 shotguns.
A long shot for sure but worth a quick & easy check.

Also the factory placed the front sight bead 1/2" back from the edge of the muzzle. Lots of chop jobs don't take the effort to replace the bead in the exact right location nor with the orig bead.
Plus the cut and recrown work doesn't always look 'right'. Eyeball it carefully for a canted muzzle.

I'd agree if a chop job, it's priced too high. But that's just my opinion.

ISCS Yoda · May 24, 2021

I agree, if it's not original $700 sounds too high.

The market for 97s is cowboy crowd

I really think that's the only crowd for 97s except, maybe, a serious M97 collector, assuming there are such folks.

Slamfire isn't what it's cracked up to be unless you're shooting against a clock. Then it matters. Ithaca M 37s will slamfire, too. My HD shotgun is an Ithaca M37:

iscs-yoda-albums-long-arms-picture16784-ithaca-model-37-featherweight-12-gauge.jpg

I do have a Winchester M97, a 16 gauge, tricked out for CAS by a formerly well known shotgun mechanic known as Coyote Cap, as I recall. Barrel is cut and crowned to 18 inches.The action is slick but the big "trick" that he performed is that the gun doesn't lock when it's empty*** so reloads over the top (don't ask) are easy and fast. It resides in my safe with my other cowboy guns. I do miss that game some....

***Easier to use a real explanation than my own words:

The action could not be opened until a slight forward movement of the slide handle released the action slide lock. In firing, the recoil of the shotgun gave a slight forward motion to the slide handle and released the action slide lock which enabled immediate opening of the action. In the absence of any recoil, the slide handle had to be pushed forward manually in order to release the action slide lock.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License

Always make sure that you are not looking at a Norinco replica.

LostintheOzone · May 24, 2021

2152hq said:
Likely a cut-down from a 30" or 32" but just for grins take a simple choke gauge along and slide it in the bore and see what it tells you.
The 'new dime' trick may be good enough to tell.

Winchester made upon special order some wild bbl length and choke combinations for the 97 and the Model 12 shotguns.
A long shot for sure but worth a quick & easy check.

Also the factory placed the front sight bead 1/2" back from the edge of the muzzle. Lots of chop jobs don't take the effort to replace the bead in the exact right location nor with the orig bead.
Plus the cut and recrown work doesn't always look 'right'. Eyeball it carefully for a canted muzzle.

I'd agree if a chop job, it's priced too high. But that's just my opinion.

Or a micrometer will also tell you. .0729" +/- is the bore of a 12 ga. If it's smaller it means the barrel wasn't cut, it was made with some choke. Mine is .0729" which means it was cut. Who cut it? Probably Winchester.

2152hq · May 24, 2021

Yes an inside caliper or mic would be the ticket to get a real read on the bore. I figure most people don't usually have one at hand. A Full choke should read about .695 at the muzzle edge or there abouts.
The old 'Dime' test works pretty well to let you know if a Full choke is just that,,nothing more as a new dime is .705.
If it drops into the muzzle, it's larger in dia than the .705 of the dime. How large?,,that'd be a guess beyond that of course. But the muzzle is certainly not .705 or smaller.
Actual 'choke' is not the simple dia of the bore constriction of the choke section. It's the DIFFERENCE in .000" betw the bore diameter and the smaller diameter of the choke section.

Your gun may have orig come with only one bbl,,a 30 or 32" Full choke.
That bbl may have been damaged, bent, blown, ect and then been saved by cutting it down to the 20" length you have. The Full marking still in tact.

Then a replacement bbl assembly from Winchester ordered for the gun. That would have required the frame sent back to NewHaven for fitting. The bbl could have been in any bbl length/choke desired. A 30" Full certainly common enough and to replace a blown/damaged original would make sense.
The factory fitted replacement would be ser#'d to the frame at fitting giving you a 30" Full and the cut 20" cylinder with it's orig Full choke marking.

The damaged orig bbl could have been sent in with the gun and requested to be cut back by Winchester Service Dept to the 20" to save it as well. Winchester would do that service back in the day.

Just a possibility of how the short bbl and long bbl set came together.

Neat 1897 having a 2 bbl set.

My only remaining 97 is a very weathered 1903 mfg 12ga that started out as a 32" Full with a damaged bbl.
Now it's a 26" length 'cyl'. Still marked 'Full.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

ColbyBruce said:
I have owned a few. If you have large hands the bolt might eat your knuckle up. Since the barrel has been cut, you could send it off and have it threaded for screw-in chokes for a little versatility.

My brother has my last one, and he did have it threaded. This one dates to 1906.

I think $700.00 is high for an altered gun.

Thanks ColbyBruce, think I will pass on this modified one.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

alwslate said:
I have four Winchester 97s, two 12s and two 16s. For an altered one that old $700 is about $250 too high at least. The slam fire feature is vastly over rated for civilian needs. I say pass and don’t look back at $700.

Thanks for your advice. It's sure great to get some honest input on a gun I know little about. Gonna pass this one by.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

rockquarry said:
I sold one as described in the original post about ten years ago for around $350 or maybe $400 at a gunshow, but these cut down guns may be bringing more nowadays.

I second the advice about working the bolt - keep all flesh as low on the grip as possible!

Thank you. Haven't seen any at recent gun shows only this one at a LGS so I wasn't sure about current values. Consensus is to pass...

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

Drm50 said:
Nice 97s are going higher than M12s. Not counting collector items in either model. The market for 97s is cowboy crowd . They will take a cut off field gun over Chinese knock off. So price will start at clone price. I wouldn’t go to expense of screw ins unless I had reason. I have one saved from Bubba Job with screw ins. My Smith had just got the tooling and did mine dirt cheap for try out.

Thanks, I wouldn't go that far with this one either. Rather look for a legit "CYL" stamped RIOT version but have never seen one around here. Thanks for the great info!

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

LostintheOzone said:
...Anyway, I would feel like a crook selling mine for more than $500. I suggest going on GB and looking at the prices of those that were sold there.

I did some GB searching and saw this one was overpriced for a "FULL" stamped cut-down 97. Thanks for the advice.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

2152hq said:
Likely a cut-down from a 30" or 32" ... Also the factory placed the front sight bead 1/2" back from the edge of the muzzle. Lots of chop jobs don't take the effort to replace the bead in the exact right location nor with the orig bead.
Plus the cut and recrown work doesn't always look 'right'. Eyeball it carefully for a canted muzzle.

I'd agree if a chop job, it's priced too high. But that's just my opinion.

I'm sure the bead wasn't a 1/2" from end of muzzle. Although it looked pretty clean, I'm gonna pass. Thanks for all the info and helping me make an informed decision.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

ISCS Yoda said:
I agree, if it's not original $700 sounds too high.
I really think that's the only crowd for 97s except, maybe, a serious M97 collector, assuming there are such folks.

Slamfire isn't what it's cracked up to be unless you're shooting against a clock.

Not a serious 97 collector but thought it looked pretty cool. Obviously I needed an education! Thanks for you honest opinion.

firefighterjohn · May 25, 2021

2152hq said:
Yes an inside caliper or mic would be the ticket to get a real read on the bore. I figure most people don't usually have one at hand. A Full choke should read about .695 at the muzzle edge or there abouts.
The old 'Dime' test works pretty well to let you know if a Full choke is just that,,nothing more as a new dime is .705.
If it drops into the muzzle, it's larger in dia than the .705 of the dime. How large?,,that'd be a guess beyond that of course. But the muzzle is certainly not .705 or smaller.
Actual 'choke' is not the simple dia of the bore constriction of the choke section. It's the DIFFERENCE in .000" betw the bore diameter and the smaller diameter of the choke section.

Your gun may have orig come with only one bbl,,a 30 or 32" Full choke.
That bbl may have been damaged, bent, blown, ect and then been saved by cutting it down to the 20" length you have. The Full marking still in tact.

Then a replacement bbl assembly from Winchester ordered for the gun. That would have required the frame sent back to NewHaven for fitting. The bbl could have been in any bbl length/choke desired. A 30" Full certainly common enough and to replace a blown/damaged original would make sense.
The factory fitted replacement would be ser#'d to the frame at fitting giving you a 30" Full and the cut 20" cylinder with it's orig Full choke marking.

The damaged orig bbl could have been sent in with the gun and requested to be cut back by Winchester Service Dept to the 20" to save it as well. Winchester would do that service back in the day.

Just a possibility of how the short bbl and long bbl set came together.

Neat 1897 having a 2 bbl set.

My only remaining 97 is a very weathered 1903 mfg 12ga that started out as a 32" Full with a damaged bbl.
Now it's a 26" length 'cyl'. Still marked 'Full.

Wow, that's a lot to digest. I wonder about the history of this one but don't think it's wise to spend the asking price to try and find out. Guess it would have been worth it if this one came as a 2 barrel set. Thanks.

LostintheOzone · May 26, 2021

firefighterjohn said:
Wow, that's a lot to digest. I wonder about the history of this one but don't think it's wise to spend the asking price to try and find out. Guess it would have been worth it if this one came as a 2 barrel set. Thanks.

I've never seen a two barrel set other than my shotgun. I know you could order those, just never seen one in person or ever seen one advertised. My shotgun was only owned by two people and I knew both owners. One was my dad and the original owner was our next door neighbor who sold it to my dad around 1955. I read someplace that cut barrels were common because people used them for buckshot. They also work for quail and grouse when the shooting is less than 20 yards. I have an old SXS with no choke in the first barrel and it's magic for ruffed grouse in the thick stuff. Just takes one or two pellets to kill a grouse. I know because I've seen me do it.

By the way, both barrels are stamped FULL so one was cut.

Winchester Model 97 12 Ga value question

Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Member

Member

Attachments

Member

US Veteran

Member

US Veteran

US Veteran

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

US Veteran

Similar threads