??? for military shotgun experts

Lee Barner

Lee Barner

US Veteran
Gold Supporter
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
4,059
Reaction score
17,248
Location
Springfield, MO
a friend of mine looked at a SXS 12 ga yesterday in WI. it is a Hunter Arms Co Fulton model. 28 or 30" F/F. under the forearm is a flaming bom, crossed cannons and some initials he can't remember. the store owner had looked up the date and it was made in 1942. any info on what these might have been used for would be appreciated. thanks in advance. Lee
 
Register to hide this ad
IIRC they would teach air gunners to shoot skeet and trap to help them learn how to lead a moving target. Not sure which all guns they used.
 
i've seen the films of that training with guys in the back of moving trucks shooting clay birds. all of those were using pumps. i've seen WWII martial marked win 12s and rem 31s but never a SXS. Lee
 
My F-I-L was a ball turret gunner on a B-17 during the war. He used shotguns to shoot skeet as he called it from the bed of a moving truck. He took his aerial gunnery practice in Kingman, AZ. The military needed the major arms manufacturing companies to built guns for war, not target practice. According to several stories I have read, the quartermasters would acquire such target guns from the towns close by. Many Remington model 11's were used for such practice. Have seen photo's of the aerial practice using model 11's. Have also seen several photos of sailors doing target practice from ship decks and they were using long barreled shotguns.
 
The military bought a variety of commercial shotguns during the war. They used whatever they could get to teach future aerial gunners how to lead a target.

Here's a link to a martially marked L. C. Smith duckgun that sold at auction.
*EXTREMELY RARE MARTIALLY MARKED L.C. SMITH/HUNTER ARMS WILD FOWL DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN.

They had some fairly elaborate devices that simulated a bomber turret. Here's a couple interesting photo of modified Remington model 11's.

remington_11_aerial.jpg


M11_1_zpsrizbgjpt.jpg
 
Last edited:
I had a "Hunter Special" 12 gauge DBL shotgun which was the very best shotgun I ever owned. New baby turned out to be twins identical boys so the Hunter Special DBL along with other firearms were sold to purchase "Baby Stuff".
I have never seen another "Hunter Special" DBL. The purchaser lived in Kansas City. I wonder if this one once belonged to me ?
 
There's a known ser# range of both LCS and Fulton Hunter Special shotguns that most all of the US Ordnance marked guns fall into.
The LCS collectors seem to have the total number of the LCS guns narrowed down to a certain #. I'm not certain about the Fultons.

These have the Flaming Bomb Ordance mark on the bbl(s) or bbl flats.
as well as the MArks of the Rochester (NY) Ordnance Depot and the Chief Inspector assigned there at the time.
FWIW, That Building is now a live Stage performance theater)

There's another marking that shows up,,'USA-F'.
But the marking doesn't also have the Ordnance Bomb marking with it nor the Roch Ordnance Depot marks.

If you search over on the LCS Forum,,there is some chatter on past threads about the markings, guns and history.
The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

Since the guns were purchased from Marlin Firearms at that time (owner of the LCS gun & mfg rights in 1942),,there are some records for the back and forth between the Ordnance Dept and Marlin.

FWIW, the Ordnance marked LCS's do show up rather frequently at least in this area (WNY). Usually just Field grade extractor 12ga guns.
The Fultons, rarely.
They always draw interest and questions.

The LC Smiths purchased are often thought to be all of 12ga, but 16 and 20ga's have been found as well. Not all Field grades either. Some lower Graded guns too and with Ejectors, ect.
Seems the LCS warehouse pulled and delivered what ever was available

Some recollections of Servicemen from the era state that they trained for aerial gunnery using a SxS shotgun as well as the Pump and semiautos.
Shooting from the back of moving flat bed trucks,,shooting on Trap and Skeet fields was common.
Getting a knowledge of lead and follow through was key.
 
I have both of Bruce Canfield's books on USGI weapons of WWI and WWII. He does not mention a SxS shotgun at all.
 
Maybe a different perspective here.

Dont forget, the military had a large scale commercial procurement program to source shotguns off the shelf that were already in the marketplace.

SxS shotguns would have made good candidates for pressing into stateside service. Things like civilian factory guard duty, mail guard duty, train guard duty, and also used for troop recreational facilities. For serious weapons training? Maybe on a very basic novice level, but certainly not much further than that.

Given the weapons systems that the aircrews needed to train for, I would guess remington model 11’s and savage 720’s would be more appropriate for the task at hand.

Here’s a quick video of someone trying their hand in a restored turret truck. They wanted they training to be as realistic as possible and the M11 was the best choice to fit the training system because it mimicked the machine guns that would later be used. I just can’t see how you’d train as effectively with a sxs.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pfNvalf9tY[/ame]

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • 3A53AEC0-9152-4268-A5DA-5C9E0D54C881.jpg
    3A53AEC0-9152-4268-A5DA-5C9E0D54C881.jpg
    71.6 KB · Views: 145
Last edited:
Justin T said:
Maybe a different perspective here.

Dont forget, the military had a large scale commercial procurement program to source shotguns off the shelf that were already in the marketplace.

SxS shotguns would have made good candidates for pressing into stateside service. Things like civilian factory guard duty, mail guard duty, train guard duty, and also used for troop recreational facilities. For serious weapons training? Maybe on a very basic novice level, but certainly not much further than that.
Click to expand...

I think that's the most likely use for it. At one time I had proably five or six different U.S. marked shotguns. All mine were autos or pumps, but I'm sure anything they could get was probably pushed into some form of service.
 
Just read somewhere about H&R Pardner single-shots also being used for WWII training.
 
From the LCS factory records:

LCS Shotguns pulled from warehouse stock and shipped to USA Ordnance Corps, Rochester/NY:
Serial number range...
Start #197,321 ....May 9,1942
To
End #202,813 ....April 9,1943

Total LC Smith guns in shipment(s) and Grade(s)
Field Grade 1,477,
Ideal Grade 20,
Wildfowl 9

The guns were inspected and marked with the Ordnance Corp standard marking 'Ordnance Wheel' and the Chief Insp Initials (RLB) Col. Roy L. Bowin (Bowlin?)

I don't think there are any records for Fulton brand guns,,maybe they have them now.

The other marking found (USA and USA-F ) which shows up on some of the LCS and I think the Fulton guns as well of that same period but w/o the Ordnance Dept markings don't seem to fit into the 'sent to the US Army' during war time.
What records do exist on some of the guns that have that marking show shipments to common retailers and wholesaler vendors of the time.
Some collectors feels the markings USA & USA-F may just be an inspectors mark used on the LCS guns at the time.
Maybe some more infor will come forth. Old records are always being found it seems.

The LCS and Fulton SxS's were used by the Service though not as any sort of Combat Weapon.

For simple familiarity with a firearm with which to shoot aerial targets,, SxS was not a bad choice for a few first lessons in handling and aeriel shooting.
Many of the Soldiers had only what little firearms training they got in Basic Training before going on to the Aerial Gunnery Schools. Not everyone is a Gun-Guy.


At the start of WW2 there was a decided lack of small arms in Service.
Anything and everything was used.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Y
Shotgun ‘Smith for trigger jobs?
Replies
10
Views
693
BARgunner
B
M
Picked Up A Project Shotgun
Replies
10
Views
802
merl67
M
GypsmJim
Any TC Encore Experts Out There?
Replies
7
Views
516
gemihur
gemihur
R
$89 New Shotgun
2
Replies
38
Views
2K
THE PILGRIM
THE PILGRIM
A
Any Experts On 22LR Bench Rest Shooting?Competition?
Replies
16
Views
1K
sw282
sw282

Latest posts

Back
Top