Ya gotta love the kids and their friends! My oldest son now in his mid-40's called and asked if I remembered his best friend from high school and later same college sharing an apartment. I said sure and I remembered his dad too who around 1992 or so stuffed a monster Chevy big block into a 1987 Chevy small pickup with such finesse that it made the cover of Hot Rod magazine.

So...years go by, my son's friend's dad passed many years ago and grandkids, careers, mortgages, life keep on going.

Anyway...son says "hey dad, my friend has some guns that his dad had and they are just sitting in the attic, do you suppose if we brought them over you could take a look and maybe estimate some value, & check em over?"

I said sure come on over next Sunday afternoon, bring the guns and any accessories, mags, holsters, and any paperwork that he may have. If you can please have him send me some cell phone pics so I can get started on research, etc.

Got some pics last night. Really looking forward to Sunday afternoon.

I've got no issues assessing the Colt 1911, or the S&W Model 1917 45, or the S&W BSR 38.....but the Eagle "tommy gun" semi auto 45ACP is a new one on me. Turns out they were made between 1964 and 1968 by a man in Stratford CT, but went bankrupt when the factory in NE PA burned down. Interesting because quicky research (INet of all places) indicates that the gun can fire full auto if the safety is held down yet it was grandfathered in before the 68 GCA so is BATF legal? I don't put much faith in the Internet so some definite in depth research will be in order, but do any of you guys out there remember this gun before its successors took over in late 69?

I don't know if my son's friend will be looking to sell as the guns were his dad's but I want to do my best to accurately appraise based on condition. The M1917 has a broken hammer spur, are these available in original, not repop's?

Anyway....enjoy some old treasure eye-candy for this morning. I'll update after I see them in person and get some more pics.

One he couldn't get pics of cause it's buried under some stuff in his attic is rumored to be an original 1865 Spencer carbine in unknown condition......as Schultz used to say " VERRRRRY INTERESTING"

Attached Images

	Eagle 1.jpg (105.3 KB, 611 views)
	1911A1-1.jpg (126.7 KB, 507 views)
	1911A1-3.jpg (112.1 KB, 528 views)
	M1917-1.jpg (84.2 KB, 1134 views)
	s&w 38-4.jpg (93.5 KB, 486 views)

__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I have nothing to add other than I have dreams about barn finds like this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"made before GCA68, so it was grandfathered" is nonsense. ATF does not care when it was made. ATF does not care what it was designed to do. If it will fire two or more shots with one pull of the trigger, it is a machine gun, and needs to have paperwork. If you do not have paperwork for the machine gun, you are in possession of contraband which will get you 10 years in club Fed with a $250,000 fine.


I believe that if the gun would actually fire full auto by holding the safety down - either by intentional design or buy a design flaw - ATF would be aware of it by now, and they would not allow them to be sold like any other gun. The fact that they apparently can be sold like any normal gun leaves me to believe that your internet research about them shooting full auto is incorrect.


What I would do (the suggestion of working the action by hand with no ammunition in the gun is not bad, but there are several guns that will not work without the recoil of the first shot - think single trigger double barrel shotgun - so without there actually being recoil that might not work) I would load two rounds in the magazine, chamber the first round, and while holding the safety down pull the trigger. If it fired both rounds, I would then suggest getting in touch with ATF and telling them that you had just come in possession of an unpapered machine gun, and what did they want you to do with it.

__________________
I always take precautions

Colt appears to be from 1918 based on serial number. That's a nice one.

__________________
Rather be outdoors

True. Three times I've been offered NFA items pre 1968 with no paperwork, but there's no way to own them legally now. One was an M1 carbine, but the receiver was marked "M2". Even though it was now a semi auto, the ATF said "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" and told me it would be illegal to own without being previously registered.

The 1911 pistol has been Parkerized at some point, possibly during an arsenal overhaul, as many were during the WWII period. Look for an arsenal stamp (such as "AA" for Augusta Arsenal) on the left side of the frame. These were applied at the time of the overhaul. If such a marking is not present, it was Parkerized privately.

The grips on the 1917 are not factory - the originals were smooth with no checkering.

As for the "Tommy Gun," I remember them, but I don't recall any mention of them being able to fire full auto. Please do the suggested test and then act accordingly.

Great finds!

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

About 1957 my Dad was helping a friend install electrical lines in his house for a new washer and dryer (my Dad was electrician) Myself and the friends little boy ...we were both about 9 - 10 years old ... were sent outside to "play" ...we were getting in the way .
In the garage I found a gun under a tarp ... I knew it was a firearm but it didn't look like anything I had ever seen . We inspected it very closely , handle on top , ribbed barrel , flash hider , bi-pod ...funny writing and stamped markings on it
I never forgot what it looked like . Years later I discovered what it was and saw another , in New Orleans Louisiana at the WWII Musem ...
It was in a display of WWII Japanese small arms ... A Type 96 Light Machine Gun ... !!!
Both my Dad and his friend had served in WWII and both had been in the Pacific . Dad later told me his friend had gotten it home in pieces , some were mailed and some the man carried in his sea bag . He put it all back together after the war ... supposedly it was "deactivated" but
Dad told me it ...worked !

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

This will be interesting to follow.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Personally, I would delete this post and not discuss it further.

40 plus years ago, I was offered a WW II Reising submachine gun. The story goes that the feller had gotten it from a Navy doctor who was at the Battle of Guadacanal. No paperwork, so I walked away, quickly!

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I agree, there's no "grandfathering in" on anything full auto, it's either transferable or it's an illegal NFA item, no gray area is what I've been taught?

__________________
Dave Ramsey Cultist

The gun is not yours and unless you are in business and it was brought to you to evaluate, I would not run any tests. I would give advice to the current owner as how to proceed and to verify if the safety works as designed or is faulty. Advise if it is faulty and allows a second shot to fire without a separate pull of the trigger it should be repaired by a qualified gunsmith. If the gunsmith finds no issues with the safety at that point they should contact BATF.

I am aware of an broken sear on a Ruger 10-22 that allowed it to go full auto. In no way should the BATF regulate all 10-22's as full auto firearms. I would not contact any federal agency in any case based on an internet rumor that one gun may have worked in a full auto mode.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

IIRC, the Eagle Gun Co 'Thompson' was not the 'problem gun.
The Eagle, though it did have the 'open bolt design' (fired from an open bolt) which would not be allowed on the market in todays world functioned OK,,no FA flaw w/the Safety mechanism.
When Eagle went out of business (I think their factory burned down), the design or rights to the design were bought up by an outfit called Phoenix Arms.
Phoenix made the gun with some slight design changes as the 'Spitfire Carbine'

It was the Phoenix Spitfire CArbine that would fire FA if you manipulated the safety is some way and then pulled and held the trigger.

The Spitfire was classified as a 'machinegun' by the Gov't as mfg'd .

AFAIK, the orig Eagle Gun Co firearm was not.

That's how I remember it.
I still see the Eagle guns for sale once in a while as a plain Title I fire arm.
I would still advise you to check with the BATF for final guidance.
The Technology Div would likely be the best place to inquire as they do the work on NFA weapons, conversions, ect.

Now that Eagle is tickling some old damaged memory cells...

Back in the 1970's I visited the famous Stagecoach gun museum here. (Shakopee MN). They used to have a touristy "Pioneer Town" kinda place, but it had this gun museum attached.

There on the wall was what they called a "Thompson Prototype". At the time I had a dewat M1A1, and to me the round Sten-like receiver on this "prototype" just didn't look like something Thompson would do.

Now that I see your Eagle, I think maybe that's what it was!

Not installed by the factory for the 1917 but look to be correct for an early TL.

__________________
SWCA: 3154
SWHF: 552

I have a book called Guns Of The Stagecoach Museum I got as a kid. What a great place packed with guns!
When “Son Of Sam” was caught he had a semi auto Thompson type gun in his car that I think was called the “Commando” but looked like the one pictured here.

The flapped leather holster which appears to be carrying a M1911 pistol is very interesting. The flap insignia is that of the Virginia State Guard (not the National Guard). That state controlled military force was the organized militia of Virginia and has been known by a variety of names over the years. It is currently called the Virginia Defense Force.

During WW2, as was the case with the National Guard units of most states, the Virginia NG was federalized and departed the state. The State Guard stepped in, as planned, to provide state controlled defense forces for such tasks as guarding vital infrastructure such as dams, bridges, airports, riot control, etc. The State Guard was armed with M1917 Enfield Rifles and a variety of handguns.

From the overall shape of the holster it appears to me to be a revolver holster rather than one designed to carry a M1911 pistol. You might try the M1917 revolver in it to see if it fits it properly.

In my collection I have a M1916-style holster for the M1911 .45 pistol that was also issued by the Virginia State Guard in WW2. It bears the same VA insignia on the flap. These Virginia marked holsters are very scarce and considered by US holster collectors as desirable.

I hope that information is helpful to you and your son's friend.

Regards,
Charlie

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Wait until you look at the paperwork. It MAY have been licensed.

Charlie is an expert commentator, understand his statements. I am a high-end collector but pay respect, where it is due. You are in better hand in this forum, then most could hope.

__________________
Rather be outdoors

I can remember the Eagle 45 ACP look a like to the thompson as I recall it was made in Tn and cost about a hundred dollars. I have never seen one on any firearms web site come up for sale. Jeff

This is about the above post: I went to duckduckgo and the one I was thinking about Commando Arms it came up in a shotgun news ad from 1992, it came in 45acp and 9mm. They didn't list price but it was 100 or so my memory is not as good as it once was. Jeff

A friend's uncle was a Thompson Collector, he had 3 transferable and 2 semi-auto Thompsons. My friend had one of the semi-auto Thompson and a semi-auto Commando in 45. They used the same mags, the Commando was about 2 pounds lighter. Commandos wore out and Thompson's went on forever!

Ivan

What Alpo said!!!!!!!!!

I like agreeing with Alpo. We go back aways.

There is no way that ATF wouldn't know about this and if it's a design flaw or broken it probably needs immediate repair. Otherwise, see our first comment. Fully automatic firearms have not been legal for sale for many years without a $200 tax stamp. There is some weirdness with respect to pre- and post- 1987 full auto guns but I'd not rely on any of it. See below.

I disagree with Alpo here. This is a very sensitive area with ATF. If it fires 2 round bursts it will qualify as a machine gun so I would lock that in a case of some kind and take it to a class III dealer forthwith. Leave it with the Class III dealer but do not give him the key. Let the Class III FFL discuss the weapon with the ATF - his possession won't get him arrested; your possession could as noted above.

I know a Class III FFL dealer who recently went through a similar scenario and told me about it. He had the NFA gun but the owner had the key. In the end the ATF let him reverse engineer it to non-NFA status and return it to the owner. The fun part of that was he got to keep the "offending parts" for possible future, legal use. But that's what his Class III FFL permits or maybe his manufacturing class FFL, I forget the numbers because it ain't my deal. But everyone walked away legal and happy.

__________________
Come and take it!!

I remember seeing an Eagle carbine many, many years ago. It had been converted to full auto by a small modification to the internal parts. Very easy.


I had a bank robbery case where the suspect used a certain semi-auto pistol. He had taken the gun apart and reassembled it wrong. Even though it fired from the closed bolt, it sure did work. I photographed it in detail to show how it could be converted to full auto and sent the photographs plus a detail description to Ed Owen at ATF Firearms Technology Branch. I never heard back. I didn't mention the make and model here because the moderators might not like me giving information on illegal conversions.


There was another open bolt,semi-auto carbine that I saw at an early SHOT Show. The manufacturer told me that ATF had examined it and determined it was "virtually impossible" to convert it to a machinegun. About 10 years ago, we got our hands on one. My co-worker and I disassembled it to see if it really was "virtually impossible" to convert. It took me about 5 seconds to see how it could be done. My co-worker was a little slow. It took him about 6 seconds. We brought the carbine to a Class 2 manufacturer, he did our conversion, and then transferred it back to our agency. It worked real good. The modification took only a few minutes. "Virtually impossible"? Not really. Again, no make and model.

There were and have been many machine guns in the back of closets since WWII. Our group was at the MacArthur Museum doing a WWI living history many years ago. We knew all the curators of many museums, all knew we were interested in all firearms. Curator brought out a stone Mint type 96 jap machine gun with no flash hider. Said an old lady pulled up in front of the museum and had it wrapped in a bead spread in the trunk of her car. Told him her late husband “ brought it home” after WWII and she wanted it out of the house. Museums have legal means to register such, should have seen whats not out for public display.

Back in early 70's, I had a Commando Arms by Volunteer Enterprises- Knoxville, TN. Although from a distance it resembled a Thompson, that's about the only similarities.
IIRC, it was little over $100 novelty and picked up from the local OTASCO (Okla Tire And Supply Co.)
It got lots of attention just from the looks but that was about all it had going for it. I think I sold it for $125 shortly after getting it.

Story from Russia: after the collapse of the Soviet Union, crime had made the cities dangerous for ordinary citizens while the police force rebuilt itself. Out in the country though, villagers got their shovels out and dug up the AKs etc they had stashed away. Criminal gangs stayed in the cities.

__________________
To cannon, all men are equal

I heard of a someone, not personally known to me, who has an MP40 and and an STG. I could have brought back my M3 Grease Gun from RVN, as no one checked my handbag. I think there are more full auto weapons "out there" than one might think. But in the end, who wants an illegal firearm one can't take to a range and blast away. I have only been to an outdoor range once when someone had a full auto SMG.

I wouldn't want the risk. SF VET

When I was in high school, one of my teachers, a former WWII Marine, who had fought in a couple of the big battles in the Pacific would from time to time bring in a bunch of his "stuff." Flags, swords, helmets, etc. One thing that sort of stood out from the pile of Japaneese stuff was a British "Sten" gun. I never asked if it was deactivated, registered or whatever. But it was COOL to a 17 year old kid.

__________________
John 3:16 .

Definitely something you couldn't do today!

A 45 acp "Thompson" semi automatic was about the least impressive gun I have ever shot. What good is a super-heavy-weight automated sling shot?
At one time I had a Marlin 45 carbine, and it was fun. But it wasn't a boat anchor like the Thompson.

A guy I used to work with, probably deceased by now, had an MP-40 and she ran full auto. He was very careful about who knew that he owned it. He told me he purchased it from a guy he befriended in a tavern. It may have been registered before he purchased it, I have no idea, but state law here restricts having a machine gun in your possession and he knew that.

There are a lot more machine guns out there than people realize.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

I used to own one of the Eagle carbines. It was NOT full auto. While it might have been possible to alter it, as made, it was a semi-auto only firearm. It did fire from an open bolt which some felt made it too easy to convert to full auto (as, for instance, the later KG-9 pistol which had to be redesigned as a closed bolt TEC-9 to stay in production). my understanding is the ATF will nor approve any new type of open bolt semi any more because of the supposed ease of full auto conversion.

As to the OP's example, unless it has been altered or is somehow broken and firing full auto it is still a normal semi-auto rifle under Federal law. Some states (such as New Jersey) may have it banned but that would require knowledge of the state laws of the OP's location to determine.

As to mine it was a fun, heavy plinker. Reasonably accurate for an open bolt gun it used M3 grease gun mags and could burn through some 45 ACP in a hurry. Eventually got bored with it and sold it at one of the Ohio Gun Collectors shows. Don't remember now what I got for it but I was happy and quickly blew the money on something else I didn't need but wanted. I had the original box and manual with mine

I'm grateful for all the comments posted on my son's friend's (both men in their late 40"s) guns left to him when his father passed years ago.

We have determined that the Eagle is a low 4 digit, early version circa 1964/65. This version was the original, and is semi-auto only. It doesn't even have the large barrel trunnion nut of the later Eagle Mark II. The ATF issues were with much later versions long after Eagle had gone bankrupt The Spitfire was the much later, different company altogether version that the ATF found issues with.

The Eagle MarkII's can be found in completed auctions and seem to be in the $900 to $1,000 range for what it is worth.

I am grateful to Charlie Flick for comments on the VA marked flap holster, and it is coming over for a good looksee along with the other items found. The VA marked flap holster does appear to be for a revolver more than a 1911, and son's friend says no gun was in it when found at his dad's house. The back seems to be marked Bauer Brothers St. Louis Missouri but I'll confirm after good pics later.

The handguns are mostly a no-brainer, just disassembly to assess condition and originality

This "barn" find is turning into a real project for me, and I really want to help the young man with ID, condition and functionality checks, and possible valuation range for his records.

He did dig out the "Spencer carbine" last night and sent me some pics, along with another find in the attic that he had forgotten all about....a FN Herstal battle rifle, and a bunch of German WWII bayonets with scabbards.

I don't want to keep adding to this post...so am going to start a new one in a minute titled "Barn finds.....Part 2". As always, I appreciate any advance info you can give me or comments as this project will now take up considerable more time than a quick Sunday afternoon!

__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570