Young neighbor stopped by with a question as he has in the past, he has recently purchased
a used but new to him deer rifle in 6mm Remington with now 15 rounds of ammo after
shooting it a couple times and no ammo to be found locally but naturally wants to use his
new rifle in the up coming deer season.

He said the rifle was shooting dead on at 25 yards and wondered if that was good
enough for a 100 yard shot. My thought was it was shooting high but I don't have any reference
materials to substantiate that thought. I told him I'd forward his concerns to where it might
get a reasonable answer. Anyone care to join in with the knowledge we don't have.

Thanks,

terry.

Too many variables for a solid answer, but almost any scoped rifle zeroed at 25 yards will have a very high POI at 100 yds.

It can't be answered that simply because it depends on the bullet (weight and type), the MV, and the distance of the scope above the centerline of the bore. Having said that, a 25 yard zero would probably be OK for deer hunting at 100 yards. Firing one shot from a bench rest at a target 100 yards out would probably answer the question.

As stated above, more information about the ammo to have a conclusive answer.

However, looking at the Hornady 95gr 6mm Remington, with a 25 yard zero, the bullet is about 3.2" high at 100 yards.

Only one way to tell ... set up a target at 50 yards , 75 yards and 100 yards ... and CHOOT EM' ! as Troy Landry was say ...

Troy also says 1" high @ 100 yards is good for open country ... down here in the swamps of Louisiana 75 yards is a Long Shot ...and be careful not to hit one of the dogs !
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Sorry folks, I have no idea as to what the ammo is, he just mentioned that he

didn't have very many (15). I should have asked those questions... thank you all for

your comments that I'll pass on once I see him again.

terry

Also it depends on how high the scope is over the barrel. The scope is looking at the target and the barrel is pointed up. The back pages in an older Lyman reload manual has this info. <0 and bullet impact at different yards with different bullet weights.> With a low profile scope and the right bullet it could be close but the bullet would probably print a little high @100.

The crowd i hunt with swears by a dead on at 25 yards zero. They shoot a multiple of the most common high powered deer rifle calibers. All have no trouble killing deer from 10 to 300 yards. I believe a couple of them were in the army years back and they can shoot quite well.

Generally the bore line points down compared to the line of sight, and recoil has the bore line pointing up as the bullet exits.

This is easily seen with a couple of dowels - one in the bore and the other along the sights.

If memory serves me correctly (not always a sure thing) I may have a box of 6mm Rem (formerly called .244 Rem) that I would gladly send off to a young hunter. FREE. I am away from home for 10 days on business.

OP, send me a PM if your neighbor is interested.

-Cap

The 6mm and the .244 Rem cartridges are essentially the same. The early Remington rifles chambered in .244 had a rifling twist which was too slow to adequately stabilize heavier bullets. They saw it as a varmint rifle, not a deer rifle. They later changed to a tighter barrel twist and also changed the name of the cartidge. But the damage to sales had already been done, and the .244/6mm Rem never really caught on with hunters. The .243 Winchester had similar ballistics, but Winchester used a tighter twist from the beginning. So the .243 Win won the battle for hunter acceptance because it would from the beginning stabilize heavier bullets better, and therefore could be used by both varmint and deer hunters.

For deer hunting, at least in most parts of the country, if you can hit a paper plate-sized target at 100 yards, your rifle is sighted in well enough. Hitting 2 inches high at 100 yards is not a disadvantage in the real world.

There are a fair number of variables but it’s not rocket science.

Sight height is a big factor but if your in the ball park it should be fine. Unless he’s using one of those really stupid look under scope mounts the center of the scope will be roughly 1.7” above the bore.

With a 1.7” sight height and a factory 100 gre Remington PSP and a 25 yard zero, the rifle will be shooting about 3.5” to 4” high at 100 yards and it’ll be zeroed at about 300 yards and be about 5” low at 355-360 yards.

Most 100 gr factory loads at 3100 FPS will have very similar ballistics. Even the Federal 80 gr SP at 3400 FPS will be fairly close - about 4” high at 100 yards, zeroed at 350-355 yards and 5” low at about 410 yards.

The major problem that I see is that at 25 yards it needs to be *precisely*zeroed at 25 yards to be zeroed at any significantly longer distance. By precise I mean a very tight group exactly zeroed at 25 yards. Being just a 1/4 inch off up or down, or worse side to side, will cause big problems at 100 plus yards.

In that regard th value of a 25 yard zero is to approximate a longer range zero (like the above mentioned 300 yard zero). However it then needs to be verified at a longer range. In the case shooting at 100 yards and confirming it is really 3.6” high at 100 yards and precisely centered for windage is important.

——

In general the .244 Remington/ 6mm Remington is about 100 FPS faster than the .243 Winchester with any given bullet weight.

As noted above the slow twist in the .244 Remington chambered rifles was optimized for lighter weight (70-90 gr) Varmint bullets, and it would not adequately stabilize the 100 gr spire points designed for and preferred by most hunters for medium size game like deer and antelope.

The 6mm Remington Chan breed rifles used a faster twist that would stabilize 100 grain spore points.

That said, I was a big fan of the old Hornady 87 grain BTSP in both the .243 and .244 on antelope. It both started out faster and retained velocity better than their 100 gr flat base spire point and out past 300 yards it had better terminal ballistics.

Hornady seems to have agreed about the utility of lighter 6mm bullets on medium game as while their 87 gr V-Max is a varmint bullet they now offer a 90 gr ELD-X, a 90 gr CX and a 95 gr SST in addition to a 100 gr BTSP and an 103 gr ELD-X for medium game.

Find a 100 yd range (improvise if necessary). Fire one shot from a dirty cold barrel. Do not rest the rifle on the bbl, but the fore stock. Do not adj the scope unless it is more than 4" off center (interpretation needed). This is your point of impact in relation to your point of aim. Shoot more if you find more ammo, but this should work out to 100 yds in a pinch.

__________________
"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Quicktarget shows for a representative 6mm Rem load, that a 25 yd zero prints a bit over 4" high at 100 yds.

This is where starting assumptions like sight height above the center of the bore matter with short range zeros like 25 yards.

For example with the Remington 100 gr PSP load above at 3100 FPS, a 1.7” sight height results in a +3.6” point of impact at 100 yards.

A 2.0” sight height raises the POI to +4.5” at 100 yards with the same 25 yard zero.

A 2.3” sight height will raise it even more to +5.4” at 100 yards.


That’s because the higher the sight height the farther below the line of sight the bullet starts and the more it has to rise to be “zeroed” at 25 yards. The resulting higher angle of departure with greater sight height means a higher mid range trajectory which means the bullet will be farther above the point of aim at 100 yards.

Conversely with something like an iron sighted BLR in .244/6mm Remington a low .75” sight height and a 25 yard zero will put the point of impact just .8” above the point of aim at 100 yards.

——-


With a longer initial zero range sight height becomes much less of an issue.

For example with the .75” sight height in the last example and a 100 yard zero, the the bullet will be 5” low at 221 yards.

Put a scope on it with a 2.0” sight height and again zero at 100 yards and the bullet will be 5” low at 244 yards. That’s not a huge difference.


Step out the zero range to 300 yards and you’ll see the .75” sight height results in the bullet being 5” low at 352 yards and with the 2.0” sight height the bullet will be 5” low at 354 yards - almost n difference at all.

In short, the shorter the zero range, the greater the change in angle of departure with sight height, and at ranges much past 200 yards sight height has very little effect.

Believe it or not my Remington 722 in .244 Remington ( with the 1 in 12 twist barrel) shoots Federal 100 grain factory ammo just fine. At 100 yards it’s MOA. I’m thinking it’s not so much the weight of the bullet but the bullet coefficient? Anyways, it has a Redfield Revolution 2x7 on it, which in my opinion is a great scope at a great price. The clarity and brightness of the optics are amazing.

I do carry it deer hunting on occasion, but a decent buck has yet to appear within its range.

It's not really the weight, but the length of the bullet that matters with respect to rifling twist. Since heavier bullets are generally longer, most folks just refer to weight.

As noted above it’s the length not the weight that impacts stability.

It’s also air density. Two things drive density altitude, temperature and pressure. Hotter weather and higher altitude produce lower air density and better stability than lower altitude and cold temperatures.

Looking at all three:

- Hornady made (and still does) a 105 gr RN bullet that stabilized just fine in the .243, but that’s because it was actually shorter (.905”) as their flat base 100 gr spire point (1.062”) or their 100 gr BTSP (1.066”).

- in your example of 100 gr bullets shooting well at 100 yards in a 722 in .244 Rem (1-12 twist) stability was probably marginal but still gave good performance under your specific conditions.

- bullet length varies as well. Sierra makes a 100 gr semi point at .908”, while their 100 spitzer 1.041” and their 100 gr match king is 1.078”.

- that may not have been the case at lower density altitudes or cold temperatures that produces lower density altitudes.

- velocity also makes a difference and shorter barrels with less velocity result in less spin rate and less stability.

——-


Some examples.

- In a 1-12 twist at 3100 FPS the fairly long 100 gr match king isn’t stable at sea level (Specific gravity = 0.967) and 59 degrees F. With an SG less than 1.0 it’s theoretically unstable.

- However in the same rifle on a 70 degree day at 3000’ it’s now marginally stable (SG = 1.10).

- in contrast the short 100 gr semi point is more stable even at sea level and 59 degrees with an SG = 1.27. Even at sea level and 0 degrees the SG=1.13 and it’s still more stable than the 100 gr SMK at 70 degrees and 3000’.

- in the .243 with a 1-10 twist but only 3000 FPS is marginally stable as well at 0 ft and 0 degrees F but more so than any of the above with an SG of 1.35. At sea level and 50 degrees the SG is now 1.50 and it meets the theoretical threshold for being “stable”.

In any case, the Berger stability calculator os pretty easy to use as long as you have the length and velocity of the bullet and it will give you a good idea what to expect.

https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

Once BigMoose sends him the ammo (our collective THANKS to a good man), you can tell your young friend: "you'll be fine as is; aim and fire".

IMHO,
J.

Ah, a word of caution about "aim as is". Somewhere above BB57 ran some ballistics and figured that dead on at 25 yds is about 4 inches high at 100 and back on at around 300. Given the drop for most bullets between 200 & 300 yards, that means the bullet's gonna be at least 6 inches high at 150 yards.

Unless you're hunting something like pronghorn antelope on the plains, that seems like a good way to possibly blow a shot at more realistic white tail deer hunting ranges. At least east of the Big Muddy.

If at all possible, get the young man to actually shoot it at 100 or so yards. I zero most of my rifles at 200, the bullet is going to be less than 3 inches high at 100-with the exception of one rifle where it needs a 2 shot dirty bore to shoot into the group.

Agreed. I grew up out west back when a .243, .257 Robert’s, .25-06, .270, .280 or .30-06 topped with a Weaver K-6 and zeroed 4” high at 100 yards was pretty much the norm.

A 150 gr BTSP in the .30-06 at 4” high at 100 yards would be zeroed at 300 yards and about 5” low at 350 yards. It also meant it was about 5” high at 190-200 yards.

On a decent sized mule deer with a 12” vital zone it was pretty much aim dead on and shoot.

On an antelope with a 10” vital zone it still worked but most of us held bottom of the chest at 200 ish yards and let the bullet climb into the sweet spot. At 400 yards you’d be about a foot low so holding top of the back or a smidge above worked fine.

Beyond 400 yards we didn’t normally shoot due to both limited bullet performance and the half second rule. The idea behind the half second rule is that with a time of flight more than a half second (which is about 400 yards for the above cartridges) an animal has the potential to spook at muzzle flash and take a step forward turning a good heart lung shot into a gut shot.

It was a matter of ethics, and unfortunately ethics have devolved to something along the lines of “if it’s not illegal it’s ethical”, leaving morality, personal responsibility, personal accountability and just plain right and wrong entirely out of the definition. Without referencing any banned topics, it’s why we can’t have nice things. You pick the topic, it all comes down to a lack of ethics.

That doesn’t mean I never took an animal at over 400 yards, it does mean I was very, very selective about having exactly the right conditions in terms of wind, target aspect, the animal locking away, and being current, comfortable and confident of a very high probability of getting an immediate kill shot.

4” high at 100 yards worked as the 100 gr .243, the 117 gr .257 Roberts, the 117 gr .25-06, the 140 gr .270, the 150 gr .280 all had similar ballistics, plus or minus a half inch at 100 yards and plus or minus 1.5” at 400 yards.

In short, 3.5” to 4” high at 100 yards worked well and gave pretty close to a 300 yard zero and a 350 yard point blank range with the common calibers used on medium sized game out west.

——

Back in the day a K-4 was more the norm back East where ranges were shorter and a 200 yard zero made more sense from the .30-30 to the .30-06.

For the 2900-3000 ish FPS cartridges that’s still about 1.5” high at 100 yards and will leave you around 3” low at 250 yards.

For the .30-30 with a 150 gr RN I still zero it 4” high at 100 yards.
That gives me a zero right around 220 yards, about 4.5” high at 120 yards and and about 4.5” low at 250 yards.

Today…well…let’s just say way too many shooters put way too much scope on a hunting rifle and are not even aware of the trade offs and compromises they’ve made.

———

As an aside growing up out west I really despised the .30-30 as it was old, slow, and compared to the above mentioned rounds, had the trajectory of a rainbow. However when I moved to the Black Hills in western SD I discovered the need for an easy to carry fast handling carbine for hunting in the mountains and pines there.

I acquired a pre-64 Model 94 in excellent condition for $275 (this was about 1994) at a local pawn shop, put a Lyman No 2 sight on it and found it would hold 1.25 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards with hand loaded 150 gr RNs.

It became the go to deer rifle as I’d learned what others had known for the previous 100 years.

I own three Pre-64 Model 94 carbines in .30-30 and one pre-64 (1925) Model 94 rifle in .30-30. All of them will shoot 1.25” 5 shot 100 yard groups with hand loads or Winchester factory 150 ge RN loads.

I’m partial to the rifle pattern Model 94 for both the superb balance and the 24” barrel which gives it an honest 2400 FPS compared to around 2300 FPS for the 20” carbine. It’s still my go to deer rifle here in eastern NC.



The nice part about zeroing 4” high at 100 yards with an iron sighted .30-30 is you cam use a 6 o’clock hold on a standard 100 yard small bore target (8” bullseye) and just adjust for center hits.



——

I also like the .38-55 which makes the .30-30 look like a flat shooting rifle. I zero it fro 50 yards and then come up one turn on the 5 MOA per turn barrel sight for each 50 yards additional range. That works out to 150 yards and it then needs a turn and a half to come up to a good 200 yard zero.

You could say I’m devolving and finding a lot more enjoyment doing it.

BB57,
Wow, there is so much to like about your post above. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out. As for the handling of 94s, I have a Model 64 in .32 Winchester Special that is just an incredibly quick and well balanced arm with its tapered rifle length barrel and half magazine. Great photos of your rifles, and amazing 100 yard group!

After looking at the Sierra drop charts, assuming one of their 100 gr .243 bullets @ 3000 f/s, a bit over 1/2 inch high at 50 yards should make it good to go out to about 250 yards. Shouldn't be much over 2 inch high or 3 in low over that distance. If your velocity is 2800 f/s, you want to be about 3/4-7/8 in high at 50 yards.

There's still a need to test fire at least at 100 yards as there might be errors you won't see up close.

NOTE: this assumes a scope height above the bore of 1.5 inches. Whatever the young man does, he shouldn't buy those second story scope rings that give you iron sight use. If the rifle came with those, get rid of them!

Cap,

Brandon stopped by the other day and informed me that he had obtained twentyysome rounds of assorted 6mm ammo along with reloading dies.
Through some local outdoor page on Facebook

I mentioned to him your offer but he declined said maybe you could give them to someone else that's in a bad spot like he was previously.
His response impressed me to say the least.

Also thanks to everyone who contributed the original post, you guys came through with much information and experience. And some great pictures
as well.

terry