A local auction produced a Winchester model 70 Super Grade (1935) 7.65 mm Argentine. I'm no expert, but could find anything peculiar about it. S/N was 403. I couldn't tell if it was refinished with the lighting, but it was well done if so.

I was all set to bid, until the price hit $20,000 literally in 10 seconds. It was still neat to see this sell at a live only auction. They also had a Super Grade 35 Remington (hammered for 10k).

Proof that pre war Mod. 70's in odd (rare) calibers bring premium (stupid) prices.

..and that's why many fakes were and are made up in those odd and rare calibers & configurations.
That kind of return money is just too difficult for them to resist.

Wow! Can't believe some of the prices being paid for firearms today. $20,000 seems like an awful lot of money to this older guy. Probably a very nice gun but for that amount I can live with my ole 700 LOL

The 7.65x53mm caliber (today called 7.65 Argentine) was the regulation of the armed forces of my country (Argentina) from the year 1891 until approximately 1960, being that time the most popular caliber for big game hunting in Argentina, perhaps that Winchester 70 was made by order of some rich Argentine hunter and for some reason it was not delivered.

There is thread now on the Winchester forum about this pair. Apparently, the 35 Rem sold at a Rock Island auction in 2013 as a 270. Same cataloged serial number.

If one was faked, the other was most likely as well. They looked good to ne, but most likely not originals.

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There was a bbl maker in the NE (Pa?)) back in the 90's that was making bbl's for these M70's. Those in the business of faking high grade/rare M70's were his customer base.
They were made up in all the rare calibers of course.

The roll markings exact as coped from Winchester originals and proper for the different era of mfg. The front sight ramp integral with the bbl, all the necessary inspec marks, proper finish and blue. Or supplied in the white to the Fake-Shop if thats what they wanted,,and on and on.

Rifle or carbine length. The latter made for some very rare Pre-War versions indeed.

Super Grade hardware was being made as well. Likely still is. Stocks too.
Correct right down to the smallest detail including ink stamp marking inside the inlet.

Often a common M70 from the correct era of mfg would generally be the base gun, then the factory ser# was surface ground fom the front ring.
A new ser# matching a known factory example of the gun being 'built' was then stamped in it's place.
Then the new/old original M70 built around that rcv'r.
They had/have no shame or fear of wiping of ser#'s, faking the guns in general or selling them once done.

But simply rebbling a rifle is also done. It's a lot quicker and the cheap way to an end. That's what has happened w/ the Argentine caliber M70 since it was a common as dirt 270 when it left NewHaven most likely.
Everything on the rifle likely looked original because it is,,all except the bbl.
If the bbl was made like the orig, marked like an orig and had just enough wear to match the rest of the gun,,,well there you go, the gun sure looks right to me.

This is why there are many long time M70 collectors who now refuse to buy anything of rarity in this field. Way too often it's a fake.
They may go in if they absolutely know the history of a piece and where it's been for the last 50 or 60 yrs,,like in a personal collection where they may have handled it before.

But these newly out of the closet rare rifles are just too much of a chance to throw money at.

There's a lengthy thread on RimFire Central on faked Win M61's alone.
Those rifles that have been tracked through internet sales and auctions and found to have been sold in the past as usually a used condition plain rifle.
Then to appear later on for sale somewhere else as a NIB specimen. Many then as a DeLuxe Grade, 'Factory Engraved, w/Custom Shop paper work, Gallery Gun or other collector come-ons.

The same magical transformation is done for the other Win ,.22 rifles Mod62 and 63.
Colt SAA's and the vintage SxS shotguns,,and the list goes on and on.

Always remember that a Factory Letter only says that A gun left the factory w/the specs listed within the letter.
In no way does the letter guarantee that the gun you have in hand is THE gun described in the letter.

Can't hardly trust nobody no more.

Be careful out there people.

The Super Grades are easily faked. IF the 35 Rem was in fact an original SG then that was a bargain at $10K. I sold a Std grade in 35 Rem for $10K to a dealer about four years ago.

Standard grade in 30 Gov't as they called it back then. It is clean as a pin and shoots great. Just wish that I could find a front sight hood for it, have been looking for years.

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2152hq, Thanks for the informative post. I am just now realizing the magnitude of the fakes that are in this hobby (who woulda thunk in so many different models?) What a shame. I am glad my meager collection is all “meat and potatoes”, standard grade guns bought reasonably priced in high condition.
As always, your posts are a welcome read.
-Cap

A benefit of having an M70 in one of the common calbers is that it’s very unlikely to be a forgery. I have a four-digit SN M70 in .270 and an early 50s Featherweight in .308. When the time comes, those will probably be the last to go.

A friend of mine goes to that auction every month. We were more interested in the 7X57 MM Rigby. Not to buy, but just curious as to what it would go for. I was there two months ago and bought a reproduction Coly Lightning.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Doesn’t surprise me it went that high. If it’s pre-war or pre-64 and in .35 Rem, 7x57, 7.65 or .300 Savage, hold onto your wallet.

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Some Might Say.

I have been fortunate to have owned two Pre64's in in 300 Savage they only made like 367 of them and three rifles in 7MM and two of those were carbines. I sold both the 300 in the $7-8K range and a 7MM rifle and carbine for $15K. I still have a carbine and two Fwt's a 270 & 358. I have been told that there are more fake 7MM guns than real ones. As there are no records to prove otherwise I'm not surprised. Fortunately I knew the source for the above rifles and all are legit.

Back in about 1960, in the 7th grade, I would pedal my bike to a nearby 5&10 store, where they had barrels of surplus vintage rifles, assorted Enfield and Mausers and the like. Most were ten bucks, a few nicer ones maybe $12 or so. I bought a really nice, "mint' 1891 Argentine Mauser in 7.65, and since found a nice bayonet for it. Long years ago, I bought some ammo for it, and my dad would take me out to some remote place where I could shoot it. It has the crest ground off, but otherwise is all matching. It is the only caliber I don't reload for, but may decide to make ammo for it too. It is at my son's place now.

I also bought a 1915 Enfield No1 MkIII, another nice gun, and reloaded and shot it for years. But not long ago, decided such a nice rifle needed a new not-shot-out barrel, so sourced a new original one from Sarco, and had a specialist put the new barrel on it. Not had time to precisely see where it shoots to yet. .

A decade ago, bought a perfect 1946 MK 5 Jungle Carbine, hardly shot, and am pleased to find the chambers are indentical, meaning I can shoot the same 303 cartridges I make in both rifles. 303 Enflields can be tricky to reload, as they have long chambers, and should only be neck sized. So no need to keep my fired cases separate at the range. A kind and generous member on this forum recently sent me a box of 100 bullets for it.

Last pm relaxed at the TV and flared and primed 100 44 mag cases I just got for my new to me Ruger 44 Mag carbine. Just moved a 4x scope to it, so plan on zeroing it in the next few days.

Peace and stay safe, ... SF VET