Why didn’t history provide us with Commander and Officer-sized HPs? (I know about the Detective, doesn’t seem to have been many made.) I would think that was a natural, and I hope Springfield does it.

There were chopped HP's built in the 1980s like the ASP conversion of the S&W model 39. Devel and one other whose name escapes me also did the cut down 39 conversion.

Austin Bullert (sp?) was one gunsmith that did a 10 rd cut down frame and slide/barrel

I think the primary historical reasons were that a) the High Power was a European pistol, and b) it was never meant to be anything other than a full-size service pistol.

The civilian market in Europe was and is comparatively limited, and if an agency wanted a more compact Browning-design pistol, there were other choices readily available.

The gazillion different sizes and variants of the 1911 by all kinds of secondary manufacturers in the US were pretty much entirely driven by the large commercial market with many 1911 fans, unique to the US.

I have emailed SA and asked them to build a smaller one. The rest of you might do the same

Probably because in its original configuration it has perfect feel and balance, and no engineer wanted to ruin that.

No demand, no custom pistolsmiths in Europe. If say plainsclothesmen wanted a more compact pistol, there was the PPK, the Browning 1910, several others-the M1914 Mauser, e.g. Also to the Europeans the 32 ACP is the police cartridge, the 9MMP is military.
My complaint about the Browning HP-and I have owned one for 55 years-is that since it was designed around the 9MMP , like the S&W M-39, rechambering it for 45 ACP requires a whole new design.

Wasn't there a "Detective" model FM Argentinian model with a shorter slide and full size frame?

Austin F. Behlert is who you are thinking of. I have a PPC revolver that he made. Great piece.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have owned BHPs and once was issued one as a service weapon.
During a physical altercation at night with an arrested Subject we went to the ground with me on the bottom. My pant leg had slipped up exposing my "Backup" in a ankle holster. The Subject reached and took control my my Backup and stood up. I was able to draw my BHP, cock the hammer and fire two shots (unable to see the sights). I missed My target, but it made the Subject run and along His retreat path He dropped My Backup.
Lessons learned: No more single action service weapons and no more ankle holsters.

When people start wishing for "like a HP but smaller and lighter, maybe double action", it reminds me of my Browning BDM 9mm (made 1991 to 1998). The Browning BDM, BPM-D, and BRM-DAO were noted for being among the narrowest full-sized 9x19mm pistols ever manufactured (even more narrow than the Browning or FN Herstal Hi-Power models) which made them easier to conceal and to operate by persons with smaller hands. Similar in appearance to Browning's (FN Herstal's P-35 model) "Hi-Power" pistol, the BDM was actually a new 15-round design created to compete in service trials for a proposal as a standard issue pistol for the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). However, the BDM failed to win any large scale law enforcement contracts, so was instead sold only in the retail market. Having a similar profile to the Browning P-35 Hi-Power, the BDM and its variants are often conflated as mere variants of the much older P-35 model, or other newer Browning or FN Herstal pistols that were updated variants of the P-35, such as the Hi-Power DAO model. However, the Browning BDM pistol is distinct from all forms of the Browning Hi-Power pistol. Remember, they were trying to sell them to agencies to replace the issue S&W K-frame revolvers, not to compete with the 1911.
I found the BDM to be very reliable and easy to carry, but no match for the 1911 in USPSA competition shooting. Unfortunately, the magazines look very much like a HI Power magazine, but do not interchange.

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Science plus Art

A Hi-Power is a Hi-Power is a Hi-Power. Any none FN factory design change ( examples of FN changes; the .40 cal. internal extractor, thumb print ), and it's no longer a Hi-Power.

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John

Actually, a Hi-Power is only a Hi-Power if it is marked Browning Arms Company and it was produced for the American market after about 1950 or so.

If it is marked Fabrique Nationale, it is an High Power.

By the way, all the design changes you listed were original FN factory changes: the thumb depression went away around 1960, the external extractor was introduced a few years later, and both the .30 Luger and .40 S&W variants were also produced as High Powers by FN.

I believe another conversion was made by a company called Trapper Gun possibly.

issue weapon and department policy. A "Concerned Citizen" complained to the Sheriff about "Condition One" carry, so no more "Condition One". The 1911 Officers went to private purchase S&W Model 645/4506.

Yup. Different times, different people, different perceptions. I remember working as a plainclothes investigator carrying a Browning Hi Power cocked & locked in a thumb-break holster back in the 1980s, and other experienced cops having vapor-lock with drizzle dripping down their legs, saying "Do you know your pistol is cocked?".

Fast forward a few years and many of them were happily carrying Glocks with chambers loaded and no second thoughts. Then someone had the brilliant idea to enclose the trigger guards on holsters (something seldom seen prior to about 1990, but "carved in stone thou shalt not deviate in the slightest" today).

As far as the OP's question is concerned, why mess with perfection? The Browning Hi Power has always been very closely comparable to the Colt Commander in overall dimensions and has the most ergonomically correct grip-frame and controls ever applied to a combat pistol. The only issue I ever had with the BHP was the tiny little thumb-safety lever, and that has been corrected very nicely for the past 30 years or so.

The Hi Power remains one of my "must have" handguns. Since retirement I have downsized a lot, many of my firearms going away to the sons and grandkids. The Hi Power will remain with me.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

I couldn't have said it better! Well done, sir!

I have a modern FN BHP (Belgium parts, Portugal assembly) and an Israeli replica called a Kareen - I always liked the BHP but I defer to jimmyj - single action pistols are just wrong when carried safely and actually more wrong when carried in Condition 1. YMMV and I know it does.

I agree, but I surely do not carry mine. Too large to conceal and, well, despite its years of good police and military use hammer down doesn't work for me and cocked and locked doesn't either. YMMV again. Fun to shoot, though!

We need pictures:

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Come and take it!!

I'm a big fan of the Hi-Power and currently own 4 versions of it. A Browning MK III, a FEG clone, A Springfield SA-35 and a FM Detective.



The Detective is my favorite and If I were to carry one, that would be it. That slightly shorter slide and barrel makes a world of difference for carry.
As to why there aren't more Detective versions....
Several custom gunsmiths have made Commander sized Hi-Powers over the years. They were labor intensive and quite expensive. They were also prone to have reliability issues.
FM was the only company to produce a reliable compact version of the Hi-Power. However they had to go to a double recoil spring and a full length guide rod to make it work. The guns are sought after by a small niche of Hi-Power fans, but never really took off commercially and sort of died out. Bear in mind that FM was primarily a military contractor making many different rifles and handguns for the Argentine Army. The Detective was sort of a side item.

I'm also hoping Springfield will come out with a Detective version of their SA-35. I have sent them an e-mail requesting it. However, it ain't just a matter of cutting down the slide and barrel. So I'm not holding my breath.

Tell me the functional difference between a 1911 or BHP in C1, and any loaded striker-fired semiauto. Those are cocked, with a round in the chamber, aren't they? Being able to see the hammer back doesn't make it less safe/any different.

And your answer was???

Cylinder and slide has done some amazing work with the P-35. Expensive, and finicky for sure. Austin Behlert also. Chopped guns aren’t just shortened. There is a lot of other things to figure out!

Springfield would be an excellent company to do it!

Regards, Rick Gibbs

Self Defense Weapons: if it is dependable and works-don't attempt to change the design or improve.

I think my reply was something like 'I'll take care of mine, you take care of yours'.

Years later I read the story of an old-time Texas Ranger carrying a Colt .45 automatic cocked and locked. When asked 'Isn't that dangerous?' his reply was 'If it wasn't dangerous I wouldn't have much use for it'.

Same old Ranger was supposedly asked why he carried a .45, replied 'They don't make a .46'.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

The answer to concern/s about BHPs, and now even 1911s, is FN's SFS kit. Among other benefits are: NO hammer bite, no mushy safety lever, easier reach and leverage to the slide release/lock, easier takedown, less snag potential from concealed draw.

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This BHP was built by Master Gunsmith James D. Corder who worked at Ray's Sporting Goods in Dallas TX for 30 years. Born on the 4th of July in 1929, he passed Jan 5th of 2016.

As you might be able to see, it has the double recoil spring and I can testify that it is a booger to get back to the takedown notch. The trigger shows the marks of a trigger shoe, but the bluing is beautiful still. Since the front grip strap was textured (as was the backstrap) the serial number was relocated to the right side of the slide.

Other than requiring a strong hand to rack, the pistol functions perfectly.



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FM in Argentina build complete Commander length Detectives. They also sold the uppers as kits. This is my custom Detective which rides on a FN Browning frame. It can also run on my lightweight alloy frame.

Really outside the US there is no civilian concealed carry. THe P35 is a duty sized gun and in other parts of the world if you carry a gun you do so on duty so it mine as well be a full sized duty gun. I love mine but it does not balance the same as the fullsized gun and it is just as heavy as the fullsized on the belt for the most part.

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Use should dictate gear!

I got 'em out and compared the Detective to my Browning. According to my caliper, width is identical and the Detective is only slightly taller due to a small top rib on the slide. But its not big enough to make much difference. Other than length, the two guns are identical.
I'm guessing that the mass difference is the whole reason for the dual recoil spring system.

I might be hallucinating but I think they did build a scaled down Hi power
at least protos for France. Didn’t one show up in a shop around DC? Back 20-25 yrs ago. Thought I saw article on such. Was suppose to come from estate of some general.

I might be hallucinating but I think they did build a scaled down Hi power
at least protos for France. Didn’t one show up in a shop around DC? Back 20-25 yrs ago. Thought I saw article on such. Was suppose to come from estate of some general.

I've had this for years. I don't think they were very popular since they were on super sale when I bought it. Shoots great.

Keep fighting the good fight!

Fred

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To quote a famous industrialist:
'Almost all input is error.'
'The biggest sin in engineering is optimizing something that doesn't need to exist.'

Manual safeties and external hammers don't need to exist anymore.

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To cannon, all men are equal

A CZ 75 Compact is pretty close to what you describe.

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- Change it back -

Striker fired semi-autos with a round chambered, and specifically Glocks, are NOT fully cocked, unlike a 1911 and BHP is in condition 1.

A review of the Glock Safe-Action would make the difference self evident.

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Live long and prosper

The Commander Model M1911 had a shortened slide which required little redesign and reworking. As noted, little demand outside the USA.

Yes, I wish that they would do a shortened version of the Hi Power. A few other enhancements they should consider are the addition of a beaver tail, stainless steel, and going DA/SA. A double action Hi Power, in any form, would be the cat’s meow!

FN has reintroduced the Hi Power at a heftier price than the Springfield Armory version. Not sure how I feel about the ambidextrous slide release. It is, however, available in stainless steel.

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otis

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Oh for pete's sake. That's not a complaint, that's a snivel. A complaint is an allegation of facts which if true violate a valid and applicable standard of conduct. The correct answer is such a citizen inquiry is to inform them that the tool is supposed to be carried that way. What a way to trigger my situational Tourrette's.

Condition 1 1911 platforms were pretty common LE service weapons by the early 80s at the latest. Treating that as a "complaint" and then enacting policy on that ignorant basis is serious misconduct. It would now qualify as "Brady" information (potential impeachment under Brady v. Maryland).

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NHI, 10-8.

I am one of those 1911forum guys... LOL

FM Detective on FN Frame weights 1 lb 13.25 ozs no mag.

FN 1969 forged frame BHP weights 1 lb 13.25 ozs no mag

FN Alloy BHP weights 1lb 7.5 ozs no mag.

They all hold 13+ 1 or 15+1. You do not save any weight vs the standard BHP. You get a little more concealability but are giving up sight radius and pointability.

Many think the ultimate carry BHP get an alloy frame with a Detective slide. Personally I prefer the full sized alloy.

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Use should dictate gear!

I was a great fan of the Argentine High Powers from FM. They sold a Commander-size version for several years. One of those guns I never should have let go. I added a slightly extended safety and did a trigger-slick on mine, and it was a fine carry gun.

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Pisgah

Assuming equal construction which IMHO is not the case. The Detective has a dual recoil system and needs recoil spring changes in a much shorter interval. It batters itself to death faster than the standard BHP.

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Use should dictate gear!

I will also point out that the best BHP currently working on BHPs and arguably the GOAT will not work on a FM Detective slide because he does not feel he can get them to his standard of reliability. #Tyost

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Use should dictate gear!

I've owned three HPs all were commercial FNs. I never fell in love with any of them because they felt light at the muzzle and had what felt like a harder recoil than a 1911. I had just gotten out of the Army and we started to do what was called "Practical Pistol" I had fallen in love with 1911s in the Army and using Roy's Leather Goods Pancake holsters cocked and locked, I new I could kill you with that set up. I always sold my HPs and looked for 1911s. Now at 77, I have a variety of issues with firearms. I found a 39-2 and it is the answer to my problems. It is safe, very safe and shoots well enough . It would be the last gun I would sell behind a Ruger 10-22 and 1911s.

At the range it scares the hell out of me to know that there are a bunch of totally ignorant people out there carrying Glocks. My brother was at a gunshow and his table was next to the Glock guy. All day that guy bragged about how wonderful Glocks were and all he did all day was fix Glocks with problems. My brother asked him about that situation and there was no answer.

My hi power is perfect as is. But I’m trying to find a 3” model 66 and have it cut it down to 2 15/16”.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I don't care what FN chooses to call it. That abomination is NOT a Hi-Power.

Yes indeed Sir!!!!.. and it is a very nice piece of ordnance!!
I´ve tried it at the range and it is very accurate and will digest any NATO specification ammo!!..
Regards
RR

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"Off we go..."

You own a real beauty piece and a very strong and reliable sidearma!! Congartulations

RR

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"Off we go..."

Close….still my favorite full size semi.

There is a conversion kit available to allow hammer down carry on a classic High Power.

SFS Kit for Browning Hi-Power | BHSpringSolutions LLC

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I guess I was lucky in that the department I worked for had a policy of ".38, 9mm or LARGER". When I wasn't carrying a .44 Special, .45 Colt or .45 ACP revolver, I carried a 1911 pattern semi auto. And I carried cocked and locked.

I used an ankle holster for most of my career. Never lost my back-up, even during ground fighting.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Well, most haven't heard of the Browning Model of 1936, so please refer to your copy of the NRA Illustrated Firearms Assembly Handbook, Volume 2. The story can be found on pages 42 & 43.



Browning almost did develop a more compact version of the P-35.

-Bill

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Veteran Paratrooper, '86-'90