"Mouse Guns" Surplus Pistols

quikdraw67 said:

I guess that it's all perspective.

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Indeed. It wasn't that long ago those very nice refurbed Star Model B Supers were $189.

I too got on a .32 kick a few years ago and now the safe contains an FEGP66 (PP clone & I had the trigger worked on and it's outstanding), Colt 1903, Beretta models 70 and 81, 1935 Beretta, and a CZ70.

I carried the Berettas for a while (not the 1935) but as you'll see in pics, my CS9 is the same size....so it didn't make much sense to carry the smaller bullet.

(Same went for my .380s -- Beretta 85F and CZ 83 -- same size as some of my 9s and an SW99 .40, why carry the smaller bullet? The "exception" is my SW380 EZ which I'm saving for my old age, which I figure that as I'm 75 now, won't come for at least 10 years.)

ColbyBruce said:

I would like to hear this story in it’s entirety.

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41 years ago, in a midsized Deep South city, on a Saturday morning at about 4 AM, the officers in a two-man patrol car saw a '72 Pontiac Grand Prix southbound on 4th Avenue. The Pontiac was weaving completely into the northbound lane and back. The officers activated the blue lights and siren and the Pontiac accelerated. The driver of the Pontiac tried to avoid the patrol car by turning west onto a side street and then south again, running several stop signs.

The Pontiac got back onto 4th Avenue, southbound, and reached speeds up to 60 MPH. The Pontiac ran a taxicab off of the road, onto the sidewalk. The cabbie almost hit a power pole. He also reported later that he saw the driver of the Pontiac fire shots at the police car. Neither officer saw these shots during the chase.

When the Pontiac ran the cab off of the road, the officer in passenger seat fired a 12 Remington 870, loaded with 3" Magnum 15 round 00 buckshot, at the right rear tire, trying to stop the fleeing vehicle. A second shot by the officer also failed to stop the car.

14 blocks later, the Pontiac turned east onto 1st Street. Three blocks ahead, a Norfolk-Southern train was northbound, blocking 1st Street. The Pontiac stopped, the driver on the police vehicle jumped out and approached, between the two cars. The second officer attempted to get out, but he had hit the door lock with his arm. At this point, the driver of the Pontiac put the car into reserve and hit the gas. At this point, all the second officer saw was his partner between the two cars, about to be crushed, so he fired the shotgun into back windshield of the Pontiac. The rear of the Pontiac then hit the front of the patrol car and the second officer was able to unlock the car door and exit the vehicle. The driver of the police car was able jump out of the way before being struck and he had fired one shot from a Model 19 into the left rear tire of the Pontiac.

Both officers went to the Pontiac and found that the driver had turned to see over the back of the front seat when he had reversed and had been struck in the forehead by a single 00 buckshot. The other 14 rounds of buckshot went downward and lodged in the lower part of the front seat. The buckshot had travelled between the skin and the skull and had come to rest at the back of the head. The driver was conscious and was yelling to see the public safety commissioner of the city.

The fire department's rescue truck and an ambulance were called and the driver went to the hospital. He later sued the officers and the city for 15 million dollars and he had such a good case, he was awarded 15 thousand.

Cartainly not considered 'surplus', but the only true mouse in my house (that I'm aware of) is a .32acp Seecamp. Purchased new back in January 1989 for the princely sum of $215.00.

Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate and reliable....with the "correct", or recommended ammo. Mine shoots PMC Bronze, Speer Gold Dot and Federal Hydra-Shok without a hitch. Winchester Silvertips are also approved ammo, but I'm not a fan. Aguila and Mag-Tech have a longer OAL, and do not fuction properly. The Mag-Tech ammo is so long, it will not go into the magazines.

The small piece of ebony on the bottom of the magazine is an add-on.

Muley Gil said:

Double ought buckshot, fired through the back window of a 1972 Pontiac Grand Prix, at about 25 feet, can hit a man in the forehead, travel between the skin and the skull and come to rest at the back of his head and he can still be conscious and able to talk.

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I read of an FBI agent who was shot in the forehead by a .38 SPL. The bullet was deflected by his skull, travelled under the skin and popped out on the side of his head. The agent survived.

I have a fondness for "mouse guns" and own quite a few. Mostly .22s and .25s. But I do have 4 .32s. I also blieve that the .32 acp is adequate for self defense and might carry one from time to time if the mood strikes.

Beretta 3032 Tomcat: I like this little gun, but its extremely ammo sensitive. It tends to jam a lot. Plus, mine is one of the early ones that Beretta warns against using hot ammo in. I don't carry this one. Not sure why I keep it.

Colt 1903: A real classic and loads of fun. Completely reliable and a good shooter. I have carried it from time to time just for S&G.

Walther PP: A former police gun imported years ago by Century. Great shooter and absolutely reliable. I don't shoot it much because every time I take it to the range, people start asking to see it and someone always tries to buy it!

S&W Walther PPK/S-1: I'm told these are pretty scarce in .32acp. But S&W put all the records in storage when the contract ended and I've never been able to get any info at all on it. Seems S&W doesn't want to admit they exist.
If anybody knows anything about this one, I'd appreciate the info.

edited edit

Yaworski said:

I read of an FBI agent who was shot in the forehead by a .38 SPL. The bullet was deflected by his skull, travelled under the skin and popped out on the side of his head. The agent survived.

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I’ve heard similar stories about the .22, .25, .32 & .38 for years but have my doubts.

Old cop said:

I’ve heard similar stories about the .22, .25, .32 & .38 for years but have my doubts.

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I used this dude’s mugshot in my classroom presentations. The story I found at the time was he was shot by the police during a barricaded subject situation, supposedly a 9mm subsonic round. Hit that big ol’ forehead, slid around under his scalp, and popped out around back.

Apologies if he’s a member here.

sigp220.45 said:

I used this dude’s mugshot in my classroom presentations. The story I found at the time was he was shot by the police during a barricaded subject situation, supposedly a 9mm subsonic round. Hit that big ol’ forehead, slid around under his scalp, and popped out around back.

Apologies if he’s a member here.

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I seriously doubt the photo is real. I could draw a more realistic wound than that with a sharpie. Those sutures are a joke as is the gaping hole in the skin - which would not be present in a sutured wound.

But pretending for a minute it is authentic, given the yellow/greenish bruising on the forehead the bruise is at least 24 hours old, even in a young person, and if from a gunshot it’s a safe bet to say it’s a lot older - close to a week minimum.

And if he’s just being booked the odds are very good he was hospitalized for that period of time, and was probably incapacitated, at least momentarily, by the whack to the skull.

——

That said, a low angle grazing wound to the scalp could puncture the scalp and they follow the skull around under the scalp until to either exits or comes to a stop.

I used to be a caliber snob. I hated then.38 Special when I was required to carry it. I’d have been happy with .357 Magnum but really wanted to carry .45 ACP.

Eventually I decided that with improvements in 9mm hollow points, and my demonstrated ability to consistently score 3 A zone hits in the time it took to score 2 A zone hits with a .45 ACP in practical pistol matches, carrying 9mm Luger wasn’t going to leave me under gunned.

Similarly, I decided a .38+P from a 3” revolver isn’t a bad choice when a properly constructed hollow point is used.

Eventually, when I looked at the realities of armed citizen self defense versus the very different needs of law enforcement, I found .380 ACP wasn’t a bad choice in a PP or PPK sized pistol where conceal-ability was a priority.

But once I reached that point, I made a similar realization that in a PP or PPK/S sized pistol where .32 ACP is so much smoother and nicer shooting that I could put 5 rounds of .32 ACP in the A zone win the same period of time required for just 3 rounds of .380 ACP.

In addition, my own ballistic testing showed that when using 60 gr XTPs in the .32 ACP and 90 gr XTPs in then.380, both loaded to maximum pressure, velocity and penetration were essentially identical and in the 12”-13” range.

So in effect, the .32 ACP offered five 12” deep wound channels with 60” of wound track, a total unexpanded area and volume of .38 square inches and 4.56 cubic inches, and an expanded area and volume of .75 square inches and 9.0 cubic inches.

That compares to 30” of wound track , .294 square inches and 3.53 cubic inches (unexpanded), and .57 square inches and 6.84 cubic inches (expanded) for three rounds of .380 ACP.

Suddenly the .32 ACP became a very viable, and even preferable choice over the .380 ACP, assuming you are going to shoot until the assailant goes down *and* you have a very limited time to stop the assailant.

I did that ballistic testing and number crunching after buying a couple of very nice PP pistols surplussedby the Vienna Austria police department. After looking at the results, I understood why it had been a viable choice for so many years.

For armed citizen purposes it is still a very viable choice, but most Americans don’t accept data or necessarily understand how to apply it or put opt in proper context, so we will continue to be caliber snobs for the most part.

In that context, all of these are capable self defense handguns, firing .32 ACP.



These .380 ACPs are also viable choices.



Going one step farther, give that;
- 95% of armed citizen defensive handgun uses don’t involve actually firing the handgun;
- 50% of assailants shot just one with any handgun cartridge stop their assault; and
- the .22 LR consequently still has a 61% one shot stop rate, it’s also a viable choice for someone who doesn’t shoot a larger handgun well.



The .22 LR does have a rate of failure to incapacitate of about 30%, but the rates for .380 ACP, .38 special, 9mm, .357 Mag, .45 ACP and .44 Mag are 16%, 17%, 13%, 9%, 14% and 13% respectively.

Still, it’s a lot better than nothing, will be effective at stopping and assailant 70% of the time, and will be effective at getting the assailant to flee nearly 100% of the time. (If anyone came show me documentation of an armed citizen being killed after shooting an assailant with a .22 LR due to a failure to stop, please post it.)

sigp220.45 said:

I used this dude’s mugshot in my classroom presentations. The story I found at the time was he was shot by the police during a barricaded subject situation, supposedly a 9mm subsonic round. Hit that big ol’ forehead, slid around under his scalp, and popped out around back.

Apologies if he’s a member here.

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Wow, that’s one lucky so-in-so . . .

armorer951 said:

Cartainly not considered 'surplus', but the only true mouse in my house (that I'm aware of) is a .32acp Seecamp. Purchased new back in January 1989 for the princely sum of $215.00.

Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate and reliable....with the "correct", or recommended ammo. Mine shoots PMC Bronze, Speer Gold Dot and Federal Hydra-Shok without a hitch. Winchester Silvertips are also approved ammo, but I'm not a fan. Aguila and Mag-Tech have a longer OAL, and do not fuction properly. The Mag-Tech ammo is so long, it will not go into the magazines.

The small piece of ebony on the bottom of the magazine is an add-on.

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My EDC in .32acp. Incredible pistols. $215 ??? Now 3 times that.