AR pistol braces? What's going on?

A NRA 2a spokesman gives his view on this issue,,,

He hasn't been an "NRA Spokesman" since that whole flap about the advertising agency bilking NRA. However, he's now a social media celebrity even though I never heard of him before he started working for NRA. He doesn't even use his real name, don't trust people who don't use their real names.
 
I like Colion Noir, real name or not.

And I THINK, MAYBE, the ATF might have a significant legal problem here. Call me crazy but this silly, little law is still on the books:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 3:

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Call me crazy but any law that makes an act criminal that was legal when the act was first accomplished is an ex post facto law within the prohibition of Article 1 of the Constitution.

This could get very interesting and, as I always say, full employment for lawyers!
 
So if the braced pistols gets re-classified as a sbr under the new rule/stamp why not just put a real stock on it?

One more reason I prefer to shoot the sbr items my friends have rather than go through the hassle/expense of getting my own lol. I wouldn't mind getting a suppressor however for a long gun.

Another response to this question is this, if it's a pistol it has a short barrel in all most all cases, so putting a stock on it still makes it an SBR, still requiring a stamp, or am I missing something with your question?
 
Also, if the government somehow does make the brace illegal, what happens to all the AR pistol uppers?
Larry


Another response to this question is this, if it's a pistol it has a short barrel in all most all cases, so putting a stock on it still makes it an SBR, still requiring a stamp, or am I missing something with your question?

That is what I was thinking, hence my above question earlier.

I mean I guess you could put a longer barrel on the brace, but putting the pistol upper on a regular lower would be "no Bueno" I would think.
Larry
 
Quick Tips: Subgun Sling Assist Method - YouTubeThat is what I was thinking, hence my above question earlier.

I mean I guess you could put a longer barrel on the brace, but putting the pistol upper on a regular lower would be "no Bueno" I would think.
Larry

Two issues here to clarify:

1) The ATF has stated in the past that provided a firearm started out as a pistol it can be reassembled as a rifle, and then returned to pistol configuration.

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

So it’s only “once a rifle always a rifle” in terms of buying a receiver listed as a rifle and then making it into a pistol. That’s always been a non starter due to purchase and ownership of handguns being more restrictive in most jurisdictions.

Consequently, if an owner chooses not to register it as an SBR, and chooses to put a 16” or longer barrel on it, he or she is free to do so. They can also put a stock on it, or leave the brace on it as a “stock”.

Alternatively, the owner of a braced pistol can also just take the brace of and leave it as a pistol.



2) In regard to the stated purpose of the proposed regulation change banning braced pistols, it will make absolutely no difference in their lethality in mass shootings, which almost always occur at close range.

My 9mm 8.3” braced pistol has a ballistic advantage barrel and a Burris 332 prism sight. It will shoot 2” groups at 200 yards with handloaded Hornady 115 gr XTPs or HAPs when shooting off a rest and shoulder in the brace.

If I take the brace off, I will lose that long range capability but at CQB mass shooting distances a firearm like it will be just as effective as ever with proper use of a sling.

My braced MP5 with a reflex sight isn’t quite as accurate at 200 yards (although it will still hold a 10” plate) so it will lose less at long range with the brace removed, but it is very well suited to shooting with a sling in pistol form.

The guy in the you tube video is demonstrating with an MP5K, rather than an MP5, but it works exactly the same way. With a little practice, at 50 yards or less it’s still consistently minute of man at a high rate of fire. Slow down a bit and it’s still minute of man at 100 yards.


——-


If number 2 were all we considered, it would just be ineffective knee jerk public policy. But it’s worse than that.

Let’s say an 8.3” AR pistol similar to mine was chambered in .223 Remington instead of 9mm. M193 /55 gr FMJ muzzle velocity in an 8” barrel is about 2300 fps. That’s well below the tumbling and fragmentation velocities for the bullet. The 62 gr M855 FMJ bullet is even slower. That means that someone shot with an 8” .223 pistol using commonly available M193 or M855 ammunition will not have the much more serious wound caused by the bullet tumbling or fragmenting.

However, that will not be the case if a future mass shooter ends up with that same AR-15 after a longer barrel is installed on it to convert it to a rifle. Even with just a 16” barrel the muzzle velocity will be around 2950 fps for M193, 300 ft per second about its fragmentation velocity. A victim hit with that bullet will have a much more serious wound.

In other words, this reinterpretation of the regulation will make rifle caliber pistols significantly more deadly by increasing barrel length when owners opt to convert them to rifles rather than register them as SBRs.

Even in the case of a 9mm pistol, converting it to a carbine improves the terminal ballistics. For example my 8.3” AR-15 has an average muzzle velocity of 1350 fps and my 8.9” MP5 has an average muzzle velocity of 1437 fps with 115 gr XTPs. However in my Colt 6450 (16” 9mm) the average muzzle velocity is 1525 fps.

In short, a regulation change that encourages people to modify their firearms to a more lethal configuration is not just ineffective knee jerk public policy, it’s counterproductive knee jerk public policy that makes the situation they seek to solve far worse.

The game has changed since 1934 and we’d be far better served from a weapon lethality context by de-listing SBRs from the NFA of 1934. But science, solid data, and logic don’t fit the anti gun narrative.
 
I like Colion Noir, real name or not.

And I THINK, MAYBE, the ATF might have a significant legal problem here. Call me crazy but this silly, little law is still on the books:



Call me crazy but any law that makes an act criminal that was legal when the act was first accomplished is an ex post facto law within the prohibition of Article 1 of the Constitution.

This could get very interesting and, as I always say, full employment for lawyers!

It doesn’t apply in this case.

An ex post facto law is one that makes something you did before illegal, or makes extends the sentence for a prior conviction longer because a sentencing law changed, or changes the rules of evidence so that you are more likely to be committed for a crime you committed in the past.

However in case like this, owning a braced pistol is not illegal and the proposed rule change won’t change the status of legal ownership now. However once the a,neatly period ends, the rule change will make a braced pistol an SBR and the law that makes owning an unregistered SBR illegal will then apply.

In other words, you won’t be guilty for what you did in the past, you’ll be guilty of violating the new rule going forward.

The ex post facto version of this would be an owner selling his braced pistol now, before the rule takes affect, but then still being charged with having owned an unregistered braced pistol prior to the law taking effect.

——

What does however come into play is whether the Rule of Lenity should be applied instead of, or at least prior to Chevron Deference.

Under Chevron Deference, the ATF (or any federal agency) can make whatever rule changes it wants, provided the issue is not specifically addressed in statute, and provided their construction of their interpretation of statute is reasonable.

In other words in 2013 when the ATF first approved placed pistols, under Chevron deference, they had the latitude to determine braced pistols were legal and not SBRs. That was the case as the NFA of 1934 did not specifically address pistol braces (they were not a thing then) and did not specifically define what makes a stock a stock. As such the ATF was free to decide under a narrow read of the law that a pistol brace was not a stock as long as certain conditions were met.

Similarly, given that pistol braces were not part of NFA of 1934 and that the definition of a stock was vague, the ATF could have taken a more common sense approach and determined that if it looks like a stock and functions like a stock then it’s a stock and a braced pistol must be registered as an SBR. (I’ll argue that action would have been smarter.)

They also had other options.

Given the pretense of a brace making it possible for disabled persons to fire a AR-15 pistol, the ATF could have done something like waiving the tax stamp fee for persons with documented disabilities resulting in hand or arm limitations.

But federal agencies are extremely hesitant to waive any legal requirement and in the case of the tax stamp fee, it’s prescribed in the NFA of 1934. Most federal OGCs will claim their agency has no authority to grant a waiver. Until of course it’s in their interest to do so.

The ATF could have also “educated” congress on:
- the facts and data surrounding the use of SBRs in crimes;
-pointed out short barrel rifle and pistol caliber pistols are less lethal than 16” or longer barrel rifles;
- that AR and AK type pistols are still too large and heavy to be readily concealed and thus are not used my criminals; and
- that SBRs are more accessible to a person with a disability than an AR-15 pistol.

They could have then further “educated” congress on the cost and lack of any real value in continuing to do background checks beyond a NICS check on Form 1 applicants for SBRs. A federal agency cannot suggest or author actual proposed legislation as that would be lobbying, but it can “educate” congress and staffers to the point they fully understand the issue and can write legislation to fix a problem or modernize an antiquated law.

Congress could have then put forward a bill to amend the NFA to de-list SBRs.

But that didn’t happen. Instead ATF used a narrow read of the law, lacking any common sense, to adopt a sub regulatory interpretation of the regulations to allow pistol braces that by any logical common sense interpretation clearly circumvented the SBR provisions of the NFA.

——

The Rule of Lenity is the concept you are thinking of.

Chevron Deference only applies to matters that result in fines or civil penalties. It isn’t supposed to be applied to matters that would result in criminal penalties and imprisonment.

The ATF is using Chevron Deference (again) to try to stuff the braced pistol genie back in the bottle by now changing its interpretation to say braced pistols are in fact SBRs. If it had done that in the first place in 2013 it would have been no harm, no foul.

However, they are doing it after somewhere between 4 million and 20 million of them have been sold and are now in common use. In addition, they are effectively threatening people who do not remove the brace, or modify the braced pistol to a rifle with a minimum 16” barrel, or register it as an SBR, with prosecution under the NFA of 1934 with a possible 10 year prison sentence.

That potential for a felony conviction and prison sentence takes this beyond the scope of Chevron deference. The Rule of Lenity must be applied to any proposed rule change that would result in someone becoming a criminal for doing or possessing something that is legal, that would be come illegal with the re-interpretation of a regulation.

In simple, terms it just means that when the change may result in criminal penalties, the interpretation of the regulation must be down with a strict construction that requires an agency and a court to apply any lack of clarity or ambiguity in the law in the manner that is MOST FAVORABLE to a defendant.

The ATF is working hard to avoid that, as if the Rule of Lenity is found by the court to be applicable to the bump stock or braced pistol matter, it would means any and all rule changes where the change results in someone in possession of a previously legal item now being at risk for a criminal conviction are null and void. That would undermine ATFs entire way or doing business by executive and or agency fiat.

And that’s really the point. Under Chevron deference, the courts have allows executive branch agencies the latitude interpret laws however they want as long as they don’t conflict with clear legislative branch intent - or infringe on the rights of citizens from unfair criminal prosecution.

Under the rule of Lenity, the ATF could not ban bump stocks, pistol braces, reset triggers, binary triggers, suppressor kits, etc,. It would instead have to “educate” congress on the problems it sees with existing laws and then leave it to congress to decide if a change in the law is warranted or not. That would ensure that legislative powers and responsibilities stay with the legislative branch of government, rather than allowing over reach and regulatory creep by executive branch agencies.
 
I have a braced pistol, bought it for the same reason everyone else did. :rolleyes: I used it as my hunting gun in the thick woods of NC.

Then I saw the handwriting on the wall about two years ago and had a spare AR lower stamped and engraved, just in case.

The pistol just sits in my safe. I will either put the tube buffer back on or convert it to a rifle with 16+ upper and rifle stock. Or sell it as I have other AR rifles.

I only need one SBR.

Though being pro 2A, and believing you can have what you want, I’m not messing with the feds and spend my last days in jail.
 
Several years ago I built 2 braced AR pistols (.223 & 300 BO) on new virgin receivers, just because I could and they were a lot of fun. However when this last leak of BATFE rulings/deadline and was leaked, I decided I didn't want to potentially have to register them as SBR's and as the approaching deadline got closer it was going to get harder to get the parts to re-configure them into carbines, so I just bit the bullet and re-configure them now. Is there a possibility that the courts will overturn these new "rules"?Anything is possible, but I do not like trying to outguess our Federal Courts. Without an injunction to stop the new "rules" from going into effect, it could still take effect and then take years to possibly get a favorable ruling. Besides I have 2 other braced firearms that are not easily re-configurable into carbines, so I am just going to file my form 1's and SBR them and pay the taxes so I can put proper stocks on them and only 2 tax stamps is better than having to pay for 4.
I also believe that the BATFE is overreaching their authority but I can't afford to be the test case to find out. I'm too old and too pretty to do well in Club Fed.
 
I own one "questionable" gun, a Ruger Charger, which, at the time of purchase had a bipod attached, and a threaded barrel. I put a flash hider on on it (no silencer), and have since added a brace with a folding mount. They cost nearly as much as the complete gun several years ago. A lot of fuss over a .22 plinker.

With the brace that gun will blow a lung out. Remove the brace and it becomes a much safer pistol.
 
Put it together for multi state road trips. Just a semi auto handgun right now.

If they outlaw it, I'll just stamp it and put one of the extra AR stocks I have laying around on it.


KFP_4209_1-XL.jpg

The negative on that is that you cannot travel interstate with it unless you file an ATF Form 5320.20.
 
I sbr’ed a .45 AR greasegun mag CNC lower years ago. I’ve since built a couple more .45 uppers and one pistol lower. I can switch any of my .45 uppers [3 pistol length and 2 rifle length barrels] to either lower. I kept it simple.
 
The negative on that is that you cannot travel interstate with it unless you file an ATF Form 5320.20.

I can with the AR pictured.

I sent in a 5320.20 a couple weeks ago for a trip I may go on late October. I'd like to take 2 of my SBR's with me.
 
I was bumming after I got my first 3 stamps about not setting up a trust. Told my daughter to put long barrels on the AR's and destroy the 22 suppressor, but make sure the serial number could still be read and then turn it in.

Then I found out about the tax free form 5. She's the beneficiary of my estate, and all 8 of my class 3 weapons can stay in her possession till the ATF gets the paper work straightened out and put in her name.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...-registration-firearm-atf-form-53205/download

I see the form and I do not think the transfer is tax free permanently. It is certainly inapplicable while you're alive but I think the result is that it keeps your heir out of jail but, eventually, she still pays 200 bucks per weapon or device.

I'm going to triple check that.
 
These old laws on the books were passed at a time when rifles were big and heavy and criminals were sawing off barrels. Nowadays the AR platform weapons are so light and handy an extra six inches or so of barrel don't mean much. They all can be easily carried slung under a coat. It would be a joke if the old laws weren't being used politically against us.
 
I'm quite unfamiliar with pistol braces and haven't seen one other than a photo in an old GUN DIGEST publication from the 'sixties. I don't recall the devices enjoying any real popularity at the time. For those who have used these devices, do they work well?
 
I am throughly confused on the proposed Pistol Brace Regulations (or more correctly by the information or misinformation in this topic).

As the regulations stand at the moment I can legally own AR barrel of any length.

I can also legally own a complete AR Upper with a barrel of any length.

It only becomes illegal when I attach the above Upper to the Lower “building” a SBR which is actually a pistol with a buttstock or a vertical handgrip. If I use a 16” barrel and meet a certain oal it is legally a rifle and it becomes a pistol again by merely removing the buttstock and/or the vertical handgrip.

So is simple possession of a AR barrel less than 16” and a unused AR buttstock at the same time legal? I think so as both are merely individual gun parts. (Any legal cases saying otherwise)?

So is the BATF saying the mere possession of a uninstalled pistol brace now a crime? Even if I do not have a barrel less than 16” long (meaning I cannot build a pistol)?

As we know according to the BATF the Lower is the “firearm” that must have a serial number. Since the brace is a separate individual part how can it have a serial number and other required identification put on it? Rubber does not lend itself well to engraving or stamping?

So now I must have a tax stamp for a Lower and another tax stamp for the Pistol Brace AND that brace can only be installed on that Lower. So is my gun now dual purpose as a SBR meaning I can use a buttstock AND as a pistol meaning I can use the brace on the same Lower?

Or is a SBR isn’t still a SBR when a pistol brace is put on it?

It gets even more twisted if you consider that a pistol brace can be installed on a AR rifle (16”+ barrel and minimum oal).
 
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So is the BATF saying the mere possession of a uninstalled pistol brace now a crime? Even if I do not have a barrel less than 16” long (meaning I cannot build a pistol)?

The ATF has long used the standard of "constructive possession", meaning if you have the parts in your possession to create an SBR, just possessing those parts establishes the intent to create the prohibited item.

In some cases, it's a little more difficult to cross that bridge, say if you have a complete 16" AR, and also an 11" barrel in possession, as it takes some work to swap them out. If you have an AR of pistol length and a brace in possession, it takes 5 seconds to install the brace, so it's easier to make the case.

All that said, I have no idea if they are planning to serialize braces. That would add even more complexity to a situation that is already logistically impossible.
 
The ATF has long used the standard of "constructive possession", meaning if you have the parts in your possession to create an SBR, just possessing those parts establishes the intent to create the prohibited item.

Any actual court cases?

I, like many of other Americans, build my own AR’s. I have several unfinished project rifles and a 10” 5.56 barrel. Somewhere among all of my parts and junk I have a pistol brace.

If you have an AR of pistol length and a brace in possession, it takes 5 seconds to install the brace, so it's easier to make the case.

So can the same AR (i.e. Lower) be a SBR and a Pistol?

Since the NFA is a revenue law it would seem not.

All that said, I have no idea if they are planning to serialize braces. That would add even more complexity to a situation that is already logistically impossible.

The actual intent may be to create such a complex regulation of gibberish that causes owners to dispose of their braces out of fear. Of course with 3-4 million of them out there I don’t foresee a mad stampede to register them. Rather it will be unenforceable gibberish that will drag through the Courts for many years.
 
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