Damascus Daly

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Have been corresponding with owner about this shotgun and trying to figure out if this is US mfg (gb info)or Prussian per what the owner thinks. And difference in collector value. Ive just begun to try to research the Dalys. Gb link below, not sure why it says just a moment

Just a moment...
 
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One of the many pics on gb.
 

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Looks like it was a higher grade boxlock. I would think it came from Europe, maybe a Lindner made in Belgium. Do you have pics of the proofmarks?

Buying a Damascus gun online is an iffy proposition at best. The barrels may look OK, but the rust can follow the iron deep into the walls. You won't know what you get until you get it. May not matter to you if you are going to put a subgage set in the barrels. Oh, and this gun is most likely short chambers.
 
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Lack of obvious proof marks make me think it's not European. Although it cold have been sent from Europe as an unfinished firearm and completed here.
 
Get a picture of the barrel flats to see the proof marks. I'm far from an expert but it sure looks like a Prissian Daly to me. Getting a wall thickness measurement will be deal breaker if too thin.
 
Charles Daly was the 'Brand Name' chosen & used by the USA importer of the day. That being :
Schoverling, Daly and Gales:

Yes there was an actual Charles Daly, one of the company's Corp Officers.
His name chosen for it's marketability sound .

SDG started importing SxS and SBTrap guns from Europe with their Chas Daly name on them in the 1870's.
Reps from SDG would go to Europe and sign contracts with gunmakers there for the builds. The completed guns then shipped to the US for retail sale. Some special order guns were also made.

One of SDG favorite makers in Europe was Charles Lindner in Prussia.
The Lindner makers mark will be found on the bottom of the bbl(s) just forward of the bbl flat.
H.A.L. /Crossed Pistols is what I remember..

I have a Daley SBTrap made by Lindner about 1912 with their mark on it. I should go and double check.

SD&G also had makers like JP Sauer, Christof Schilling, Aug Heym make their Charles Daly marked guns.
I have read that SD&G also used Lefever arms Co/Syracuse NY as a maker for their Charles Daly SxS's as well.
This auction makes note that they feel this particular gun was made by Lefever Arms Co.

If so it won't have any 'proof marks' on it as would a European made arm.

Syracuse Lefevers are Side Plated-Box Lock actions.
This is showing as a Box Lock action alone but still with the overhanging sears of the Syracuse Lefever action.
Entirely possible to rework the Syracuse Lefever to eliminate the false side plates. Then 'Fancy Back' the rear edge of the box lock frame as this one is.

This gun DOES NOT however have a cocking system nor an ejector system anything like a Syracuse NY made Lefever Arms SxS shotgun.

So I have my doubts that Lefever in Syracuse would custom make an entirely different action design just for SD&G,,and not get credit for it by not having their Lefever name on it.


After WW1 the SD&G enterprize was discontinued and the Charles Daly trade name was sold to at least 2 different Business familys.
Modell was one IIRC.
Sometime in the 20's, Sloans Sporting Goods bought the Daly trade name. They used it on some of their retail imports. But they certainly were not the high quality Prussian/German guns of the preWW1 SD&G days.

The Chas Daly name remains and has been kicked around as a plain retail trade name since. Owned by many but never the grand old quality SxS and SBTrap guns of a century and more ago.

That's a beautiful shotgun on the auction at first glance. Ejector gun too.
Only a close review will tell if it has any problems.
But for those that still like to shoot Damascus bbl'd guns,,there is a stunning example if no hidden problems.
 
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Regardless of the Name, buy it of you like it and want a wallhanger. But don't think you are going to shoot a shotgun with a Damascus barrel.
 
Only Daly I ever had was one that I bought in a small collection.
The ‘experts’ thought it was German made, not necessarily that high a grade gun.
Bought it right, sold it with delight.
 
Black powder loads should be just fine if the barrels are still good.
Get some paper, or all-brass empties to load.

Obviously, back in the day Damascus was meant for black powder. The problem is that internally the barrels deteriorate after many years and they are not even safe for black powder any more.

Since you have no way of telling that the barrels are "good" any more, best not to experiment unless you have a tree and some rope.
 
There are damascus only shooting clubs today.
It's obviously important to have the shotgun in question checked out by someone qualified.
Two companies, rstshells.com and polywad.com make modern, low pressure 2 1/2" shells for shooting in damascus and twist steel shotguns.
Rstshells.com also advertises a 2" .410 shotshell. The 2 1/2 " shells are available in 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, and .410 gauge.
 
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Yep don't shoot any Damascus guns. Just send them all to me and I will take care of them properly. If you use loads that are equal to what the gun was designed for and what it was proofed for it will be fine. I have 2 Damascus guns I shoot regularly. One is from 1892. It has British 2 1/2" chambers. The proof houses try to blow the guns up. They proof Damascus guns regularly. If you see them as a threat, send 'em my way.
 
Last year, I sold a L C Smith Damascus. It was a good shooter and I shot reduced power shells in it. I assumed the chambers were 2 1/2' shells. It wasn't fancy, just a nice shotgun. So called "wire" barrels, where steel wire was wrapped around a mandrel and pounded into shape, was on cheaper guns. You can see the wear on them by looking down the barrel. The soft steel would rust and weaken the guns. I wouldn't shoot any thing in a wire barrel.
 
Way back in my Puppy Dog days I have used an Uncle’s
10 Ga Hammer Double Barrel. Damascus.Barrels.
Made in Belgium.
I shot the shells he had.
I think they were Smokeless!
 
Owner says it has the crossed pistols proof on underside of barrels but has yet to send pics of such and don’t think I saw anything in auction pics except for the serial numbers and top of barrel info.
Not sure why gun was listed with LSB in Ca because guy/gun is in Fl. And with a starting price of 2k and conflicting info of origin it didn’t sell. Then if you were looking at this gun on auction then make the mistake of looking at sellers (LSB)other auctions you get lost in a sea of 100s of drool worthy firearms and never make it back to the Daly double.
 
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Owner says it has the crossed pistols proof on underside of barrels but has yet to send pics of such and don’t think I saw anything in auction pics except for the serial numbers and top of barrel info.
Not sure why gun was listed with LSB in Ca because guy/gun is in Fl. And with a starting price of 2k and conflicting info of origin it didn’t sell. Then if you were looking at this gun on auction then make the mistake of looking at sellers (LSB)other auctions you get lost in a sea of 100s of drool worthy firearms and never make it make to the Daly double.

The crossed pistol stamp is H. A. Linder of Prussia's makers mark. It is a a Diamond Quality Linder which is a a sought after gun. Big but here, but condition is everything. There might be a very nice shotgun under the grime or maybe not. If the barrels are solid in a live auction I wouldn't be surprised to see it sell for well more than the $2K starting bid they had on Gunbroker. (which really isn't the place to sell that type of firearm)

When buying old side by sides the barrels are everything. If the walls are thin and there is some pitting in the bores it very well could be just a wall hanger. If there is good wall thickness you might be able to have the bores honed to remove the pitting or the pits might just open up more. One never knows when it comes to pits. If the ribs are not solid the cost to having them redone is very expensive. Dents may or may not be an issue.

Looking at the photos there is signs of surface freckling/fine pitting on the outside of the barrels. The photo showing the muzzle looks like corrosion in the bores.

The action looks tight and the screws don't look they have been handled by some bubba. Those are pluses. There is well over 100 years of crud in the checkering. That can be cleaned out and you may find the checkering is still nice and sharp. It didn't look like there are any worm holes in the horn butt plate.

The Linder has some pluses and minuses. Someone will take a chance on that one.

If the bores are good, the ribs solid and the barrels are on face I would shoot the heck out of that shotgun and I would do it shooting low pressure smokeless loads.

Here are two of my Damascus barreled shotguns. Both were originally proofed with smokeless nitro loads. Both have minty bores that have never been honed. The Parker was one of Parker's last Damascus barreled guns manufactured. It was built in the mid 1920s. Parker used the same proof load in both Damascus and fluid steel barreled shotguns.

166511060.SlwemrTi.belgiannpheasant.jpg


161418137.rQoImbyt.Parker3.jpg
 
To shoot or not,,Damascus bbl'd shotguns .
It's all up to the owner of the gun.
Plenty of points of view both ways and the shotgun forums are full f pages and pages of discussion on the subject.
Some of it gets nasty sometimes.

Not all are a good candidate for shooting, even with the BP loads of the era they were made in.
Not unlike any firearm, they have to be in good condition to begin with.
That starts with bbl wall thickness and solid lockup and all the things already pointed out in above posts.

Being cavalier about the whole thing and believing any damascus gun is just as strong as any steel bbl'd gun out there is foolish in more ways that one.
They all have to be checked out no matter what they are and when they were made.

When you do decide to shoot them, realize that what was a 'normal' load in 1900 pressure wise is not the same as what is now sold OTC.
Nitro Proofed back then had a different ceiling than what is considered allowable now.

Load for the specific firearm and even then consider the age and be kind to it.

Yes, smokeless powder loads can be made up that will perfectly follow the BP pressure curve of the same guage.
But they are usually not something thrown together from what you might have on hand unless you are dedicated to this sort of thing.

Specific hull, wad, crimp style, primer, shot weight and powder type and charge weight all play a role.
Estimating pressures ,,you can not.

The best data comes from actual loads checked in a Pezio pressure test gun. There are more than a few private individual companys that will pressure test your loads and give you the test results all printed out.
5 rds is usually the minimum number for an average readout.

Most of the Vintage Shotgun crowd generously shares this info on-line on the different forums.

Some may still not feel secure in using a Damascus bbl'd gun and that is their right.
Just like anything else.

Have there been times when a Damascus bbl'd shotgun bbl has blown?
Yes, easy to find example pics.
Some look suspiciously like a stuck wad blow up or perhaps an overload reload.
A thin wall in a tube from over aggressive bbl honing is another. Shooters like the bores to sparkle you realize.

No one really 'proofs' a firearm in the USA. At least not in the correct manner.
They may place an OTC 1 1/8oz load in it nd fire it off with a string around the trigger with the gun tied to a tire.
If it stays in one piece, it's blessed as 'Safe'.
Hardly...

Damasus bbl's, the century+ old ones are still treated the same ans a brand new steel bbl as far as Proofing is concerned in England and Italy.

If an old Damascus bbl'd shotgun (or rifle) comes into the Proof House it is treated no different.
It is Proof Fired with the same Smokeless Proof Loads as the new mfg firearm of the same gauge/caliber.

But before they ever get to the Proof Firing, the guns (old and New) go thru an Inspection (View Proof). That checks and measures things like headspace, lockup, chamber size, etc.

80+% of guns that FAIL proofing,,fail during View Proof.
They never get to the Proof Firing stage.

Those that fail during actual Proof Firing are as a result of the View done after that firing. What is found then are loose locking systems, bulged bbl's & chambers, and other issues arising from the actual Proof Round firing.

The incidents of bbl's 'blowing up' is a very rare occurance.

Bbl wall thickness: There is no Minimum Wall Thickness in the European Proof Hs.
They either pass or fail proof.
However an extremely thin bbl will fail View Proof.
That would be thin enough for the Proof Inspector to notice such things as the bbl wall deflecting by finger pressure, ect.
..I've seen them so thin from honing that a Bore Micrometer would push the Mic measuring ball points against the inner wall surface and actually push the wall outward.,,tissue paper thin, but nice and shiney to look thru!

Each gun is an individual piece of machinery to be examined and judged.
Even then if you don't feel comfortable using it,,Don't.
There are far too many other firearms out there to satisfy your shooting and hunting needs w/o having to doubt the safety of the one in hand every time you pull that trigger.
 
Looks like proof mark almost out of the picture.
 

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Looks like the butt of the pistols of the 2 crossed pistols in Lindners Marker Mark.
 
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