Very Nice! Between now and 5/17 I will try to get a handle on both the Guardian and .38 Super, I expect I will like both.

On 5/17 I will be attending the Colorado Gun Collectors Show and in addition to my annual Smith hunting I will be looking for a vintage Colt in .38 Super. Vintage Colt sticker shock is a challenge I will be hard pressed to overcome. The show presents a lot of opportunities for me to get into trouble as it is .

I always get a little miffed when someone says 38 Super 1911. I was supposed to inherit a nice vintage Colt 1911 in Super 38 but an in law pawned it before the body was cold and said it was "missing" from the estate. It was among several things he quickly sold to buy jewelry for his women. If what an old man thinks matters, I have more expensive 1911's but my 9mm ATI 1911 commander is the one that I shoot most.

Panache...

Let me pose a slight variation to the question. I am a paper puncher, pure and simple ( in days of old we were called Bullseye shooters.) I have NO NEED for power. But accuracy is important. Just to give you my perspective, in both my .45 1911s I shoot a 200 grain LSWC over 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye pretty much exclusively. I'm not looking for the ultimate gunfighting round.

So, is there any advantage to either 9mm or 38 Super if your goal is a light recoiling, very accurate sub bore 1911? I would think these days the advantage would go to the 9mm, as we have figured out how to make the 9mm accurate, and have no real need for the larger capacity of the 38 Super case.

But I have no experience with either, so those who do, please advise.

Good question and I would think that high quality 9mm ammo, likely have to load your own to make match grade 9mm, coupled with a 1911 that has good sights, good trigger, and a well fitted barrel with a bore that has a proper groove depth and twist, would be just as accurate as one in 45 ACP.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

stansdds

That was pretty much my thinking, but like I said I have no experience with either round in a 1911.

I load and cast my own, so I have total control over that. Match grade 9mm barrels are now a real thing (unlike in the 50s/60s) and the techniques of building match accurate 1911s don't really change. If I wanted a hot rod the larger .38 Super case might have advantages, but I don't. 125ish grains at @ 700-750 fps will stop a charging black paper circle easily.

Tangfolio witness in .38 super. 18 round capacity, nice shooting gun. Also have a 1911 in .38 Super. Just a great round IMHO

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

I have owned a couple of witness pistols. They functioned well. At that time, was always looking for something different. Have recently looked at them in 38 Super. Have 2 45 1911's, 9mm full size, and a .40 Commander. Bob

I own a 1958 manufactured Colt Government Model in .38 Super. It was customized back in the day to shoot .38 Special. After I acquired a S&W Model 52, the Colt did not get shot much. I acquired a .38 Super barrel and fitted it to the gun. It shoots fine. .38 Super is a good round. Still prefer the .45 ACP, but if needed will use the .38 Super.

I use the Colt Super .38 frame for six different calibers.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The 38 super is very popular in NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup) I believe mostly because it’s very accurate and easily makes power factor (120,00) without much recoil. I personally shoot a Super but realistically can’t see a big advantage over the 9 I any at all. Strictly preference for me. Factory 9’s easily make power factor also so meh. If you shot a game that requires major power factor the Super would be a better choice

All you need is a 9mm barrel and magazine to convert either to 9mm. Slide is the same. Since EAA no longer represents Tanfoglio, I do not know who carries Witness parts. I have a Witness set up for 9mm, .38 Super, and .45 ACP. As close to the old Bren Ten as you can get today.

First time shooting .38 Super. Model 15-4ever's "Panache" comment is spot on. The round is somewhat like 9mm with character. The DW Guardian exceeded my expectations. Light, slim, accurate and with very good hand feel. It was hard to stay under 100rds, DW recommends 50rds before cleaning, but I ran it very wet. Looking forward to stripping, cleaning and lubing! Range again this stormy weekend (indoor range).

The range has a nice shop and we always do a post session walk through. So it will be three days until I pick up my new to me 1974 S&W 19-3. Shows wear, but it is clean and tight. I had the cash and it only took $500 away from my upcoming gun show budget .
I could NOT leave it in their case.

GMTA.... I have the same Dan Wesson Guardian pistol in Super 38. If I was limited to a single 1911 - - that would be it.

I liked it so much, I asked DW build me a LW CCO in 38 Super:

I tend to accumulate 1911s. As such I have 4 .38 Supers.
3 Colts. A government Model, a Combat Commander and a 1952 Lightweight Commander along with a Rock Island.
I like the Super. Good cartridge and it was introduced in the 1911. So its part of the history.
I never really got that deep into it. I worked up a couple of good loads that work well in my guns and just left it at that. I don't push it either. Just standard loads. All I do is punch paper with them anyway.
Never been much of a 9mm 1911 guy. Just doesn't seem right. I do own one 9mm 1911 and wish I'd never bought it. For a 9mm, I much prefer the Hi-Power. Been tempted for years to change the barrel and turn it into a .38 Super. Just never got around to it.

This is all very correct and something that many folks don't consider is the fact that the 1911 platform was never designed to work with the 9mm cartridge. The cartridge is too short for the platform and uses a tapered case. Don't get me wrong it has been made to function pretty reliably, but that was a struggle, especially in single stack guns. Cartridges in the magazine are not properly supported by the following cartridge due to the taper and nose diving has always been an issue. Ramped barrels seems to have made it even worse. Bill Wilson even designed a special 9mm mag to address the issue. The .38 Super on the other hand, works beutifully in the 1911 platform. It's as long as a .45 acp and uses a straight walled case. Biggest issue is the lack of availability of hi-performance ammo. I actually carry a .38 Super as my daily carry and shoot 147 grain, handloaded Gold Dot bullets. I shoot gelatin for a living for a major ammo maker and have shot this load ( 1140 FPS) into gel on several occasions. It performs very well as the velocity is within the performance range of the bullets. I really like the .38 Super -Duper.

I built this LW Commander as a daily carry. It has a BarSto barrel in .38 Super and shoots very well.

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After reading about the feds and other peace officers shooting these back in the day < I decided I needed one . I ended up with ba Tanfoglio Stock III in 38Super which is a pleasure to shoot . But I still wanted a Colt . A couple of months ago a member had a Colt 38Super he wanted to sell or trade . I had a 686 Lew Horton Hunter I offered up and we traded . Come to find out they only Ade 750 of them . I took it out and it was very accurate , which is hard to admit seeing as I'm a hardcore S&W man . Now I'm looking at other 38Super Colts , which ain't a bad thing at all .

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Somewhere along the line I picked up a Colt .38 Super with a Jim Clark barrel. It might be time to take it out and play with it.

GMTA

Starline 38 Super cases have 28.4% more volume (H²O Wt./gr.) than a nominal 9x19 case, in my measurements.

More powder equals more power.

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LabRadar tested in a Dan Wesson Pointman with a fully supported 5" 38 Super bbl.
Some load data is above commonly listed max. load data.
Use at your own risk.


-(Click for larger view)-

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Waiting for the break of day

Hmmm… My understanding is that the difference in 38SC and 38TJ is that 38TJ has a deeper extractor cut.

Here are Starline's descriptions of their .38 Super variations:

38 Super An improved version of the .38 Auto, this semi-rimmed cartridge is very popular in the competition world. Not to be used with .38 Super data in firearms originally chambered for the .38 Auto cartridge. 38 Super Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

38 Super Comp The .38 Super Comp is a heavy duty rimless 38 Super with similar internal capacity to 38 Super. Designed to enhance feeding reliability in high capacity magazines of competition race-guns chambered for 38 Super. May require minor extractor tuning in some firearms. When using Dillon press .223 shell plate works best where applicable. 38 Super Comp Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

38 Super +P The .38 Super+P is a 38 Super case made of heavy duty material with standard semi-rimmed head design and similar internal dimensions. 38 Super+P Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

38 TJ The 38 Todd Jarrett case is very similar to the .38 Super Comp case but with modified extractor groove geometry to aide in full length resizing. Used mainly in competition race-guns. 38 TJ Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

I never said "I want to hot rod" in fact I specifically said I DIDN'T. These forums never cease to amaze me

Another good article on .38 Supers is one by sheriff Jim Wilson in the 2015 Gun Digest if you can find that issue. He really likes them. The article has several good pictures.

Jim

Aside from its potential to be handloaded to .357 levels (in the appropriate case form), it is more easily handled than 9mm during reloading due to its greater length. But the reason I like the .38 Super is its historical significance. The .38 ACP (along with the .32 ACP) was the earliest American-designed auto pistol cartridge, first appearing as the chambering of the Colt-Browning Model 1900, which was the predecessor to the Colt Model 1911.

Being that the ,38 Auto is the parent case of the .38 Super (or Super .38) is possibly the reason you do not see a ton of Colt 1900's, 1902's and 1903 Hammer's. When folks could not get the .38 Auto readily,m the ran .38 Supers in them and overstressed them.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The problem was the wedge notch at the front of the Colt M1900 (and similar models) slides. There were stress risers at the notch corners that would crack due to the higher slide velocity caused by firing .38 Super instead of .38 ACP. I have seen quite a few of those cracked early slides and there is no way to repair then. Also not unusual on the .45 Model of 1905 pistols. The early .45 ACP rounds for the M1905 were lower powered and used a lighter 200 grain bullet. They are dimensionally the same as the later .45 ACP round made for the M1911. But firing the heavier later .45 ACP round would do bad things to the slides of the M1905 .45 pistols. Most shooters were unaware of this problem with the pre-1911 Colt pistols until it was too late.

I once owned a Colt Model 1903 pocket model (.38 ACP). Its slide was still OK, and I kept it that way by handloading .38 ACP cartridges at the minimum power level adequate to function the slide.

This thread has inspired me!
I ordered a .38 Super barrel and am going to convert my only 9mm 1911. Been meaning to do this for years.

You will also need to find a .38 Super magazine, probably stronger recoil springs too.

Prior to acquiring my .38 Super I ordered a Wilson Combat and a Mecgar from Midway. They and the two DW supplied worked perfectly.

I have other 38 Supers and plenty of mags. BTW: I've found that Metalform makes the best 38 Super magazines.

Actually, the 9mm and 38 Super use the same recoil spring. But I may put a slightly stronger one in just to keep from having to chase brass into the next county.

What a hoot!! The ad says it all!!

Do you know what magazine that ad is out of?

I just recently bought my first 38 Super and have been to the range one time. I am very happy with it!

Ordered a copy.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I carried this one on several occasions. Never got a second look. This my .38 ACP Model 1903 Hammer. Yes, I reload for it. Cases are painted black to ensure that .38 Supers do not get in the mix.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Do you remember if this article has load data or ballistic tables? I am interested in ordering a copy.

Several years ago, I was on the verge of ordering a .38 Super barrel, mags and converting my RIA 9mm. However, I realized I wasn't getting that much more power than my 9's and I only shoot paper.

More power when shooting paper is irrelevant. Accuracy is where you want to be when shooting paper. Some will say the 9MM is more accurate than the .38 Super. Some will say it the other way around. I say find out for yourself.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Treated my DW Guardian to a set of Ivories since this thread was started.

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Living a dream - S&WCA #2364

...only problem is you are shooting exactly what 9x23 factory Winchester ammo is running, not .38 Super ammo.

The boutique ammo manufactures run 124/5s in the 1350 area which is safe in any Super, supported or non... 115s can be run to the mid-1400s...

Bob

...also...

The Colt SUPER .38 is the name which Colt gave their 1911 in 1929 that was made to shoot .38 ACP just like the GOVERNMENT MODEL was the .45.

In 1929 there was no such thing as the .38 Super. It was the .38 ACP at 1080 fps. This was then bumped up by the ammo manufactures over the next few years till the nominal velocity was 1300 fps with a 130 grain bullet. There were both FMJ and JHP ammo available. The velocity increase was with Colt's blessing as they thought that the then discontinued 1903s could take the pressure. It wasn't till the late 1930s that Colt notified tha mmo companies there was a "problem"...

Part of the solution was to put standard pressure rounds in brass cases and high speed in nickel plated cases. But the boxes were still labeled .38 ACP. It wasn't till sometime in the 1940s or 50s that boxes of high speed ammo started appearing with the .38 Super caliber on the box. .38 ACP was available till I believe the 1980s or 90s...velocity listed was 1040 fps. .38 Super 1280.

That book on the SUPER .38 pictured on page one of this thread...just saw two sell on GunBroker over the last week at $1000 and $930 each...

Bob

Had been interested in the .38 Super cartridge for years, and of course being a M1911 fan, finally ran into one at a great price - a RIA M1911 5" 'GI' style no-frills pistol.
Did a small amount of work to the pistol, shipping the slide to Novak for sights, polished the ramp and chamber and placed VZ 'Cherrywood' GI lookalike grips on it.
For a beer-budget pistol, it far exceeded my expectations for accuracy and reliability.

The 'Super', like many other calibers is at it's best as a handloader's round.
Was pleased to find the RIA had a fully supported chamber. Published load data easily takes the .38 Super into .357 Mag. area for ballistic comparison using 124/5 JHP bullets.
I use only Starline .38 Super basic brass - no bulging or pressure signs.

Since I HATE losing .38 Super brass on my heavily grassed range, did pick up a 9mm barrel and already had several 1911 9mm magazines - it makes a great range gun, and no real worries about lost brass.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

As far as I have been able to determine, Colt was the only manufacturer that used barrels with the headspace on the rim chambers. Not sure what Llama or Star used but probably headspace on the case mouth as the guns were designed to also shoot the 9mm Largo who's rim is the same diameter as the body.

Looking at a 1944 GUN DIGEST yesterday in the ammo section was listed three .38 Auto cartridges:
WINCHESTER brand:

.38 Automatic Colt 1080 fps 130 FMJ

.38 SUPER SPEED .38 Automatic Colt 1300 fps 130 FMJ

.38 SUPER SPEED .38 Automatic Colt 1300 fps 130 Hollow Soft Point

So apparently the ammo companies treated the .38 ACP the same way they did the .38 Special high speed rounds, just calling them "High Speed" instead of a different name completely...

In the hand drawn cartridge pictures, the name on the .38 ACP is ".38 AUTOMATIC COLT" and the other ".38 SUPER AUTO COLT".

I've been thinking about this too, as I have a Springfield 1911 in 9mm. I keep seeing the $49 .38 Super Sig Sauer barrels at CDNN and think one would work, as it has the same type ramp as my Springfield.

Is it a given that you need new magazines? Some 9mm 1911 magazines have a spacer at the rear for the shorter cartridge. But some don't. My Springfield magazines don't have the spacer. I don't see why they wouldn't work.

My only holdup is I'm just not sure I want to add another caliber.

Those are ramped barrels. Will not fit a M1911 frame unless it is cut out for it. It does fit my Ruger SR1911 frame, but will need to modify a slide to get it to function.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have an old Pocket Hammer Colt that I reload for. I do try to keep velocities under 1500FPS with this one

BTW, Just out of curiosity, I bought one of those SIG .38 Super barrels a few years ago. It would have to be fitted to use in my STI Super, but fit my Kimber Super like it was made for it. It is a very nicely finished barrel inside and out. No malfunctions with factory or reloaded ammo, and accuracy as good as with the original factory barrel.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

SIG used to chamber 1911s in .38 Super but when they stopped they packaged up and sold off all the barrels. They have the Nowlin/Wilson Ramp and will fit any makers gun that have that ramp. I've put them in several Kimber 9mm and 10mm guns as well as a SIG Nightmare Carry that was originally .357 SIG.

For those that are wondering, the .38 Super runs in any 1911 made in 10mm also not just 9mm. After having a Kimber Stainless Target II in .38 Super decided to buy one in 10mm I liked it so much...it was only after I bought the 10mm that I found out that Kimber uses the same breechface cut for their 9mm and 10mm guns... Sold the 10mm to a friend who had never had a semi-auto before along with 9mm and Super barrels and just added barrel to my original Super.

If you have ever wanted a Long Slide .38 Super just buy one in 10mm and add a Fusion 6" .38 Super barrel. Had one added to a PARA-USA LS Hunter (Para/Clark ramp) and a Kimber 10mm Stainless (Nowlin/Wilson ramp). Really makes the Super and 9x23 hummmm...

Bob

ps...

Just looked it up and if a Springfield Armory 9mm/10mm is cut for a ramped barrel it is a Nowlin/Wilson which is what the SIG barrel is...so it may take some minor fitting but is the proper ramp for the SA...

I did not know that. Is it true for all 10mm 1911s? If so it should also be true for using 1911 9mm barrels as they use the same slide as the .38 Super. So you theoretically could have a single M1911 that could use 9mm, .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and 10mm by just changing barrels and magazines. I own nothing in .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or 10mm, so that is something I have not tried. Makes one wonder if a simple barrel swap could turn a M1911 .45 into a .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or 10mm.

I've never done a conversion on a non-ramped Colt 10mm but have on Kimber, SIG and PARA so don't see what the difference would be doing any other brand of 1911.

The Kimber Stainless Target II will run:
.38 Super
9x23 Winchester
9mm Largo
9x19
.357 SIG
.40 S&W
10mm
...all on one slide.

Lucked into a Kimber parts kit in .45 with every part but the frame...so added .45 ACP and .45 Super to the mix. An then found of of the .22 Conversion Units in silver...

Added flat bottom firing pin stops and extra power firing pin springs to the slides. The mainspring was increased to 25#. The recoil springs are matched to the caliber. 14# for 9mm. 18.0 for most of the rest and 20-24 for 9x23, .10mm and .45 Super...

Early pictures before everything was all together:

Kimber Stainless Target II System... - 24hourcampfire

Four-Caliber STII... | 1911Forum


If trying to go from 9mm to 10mm it will all depend on the brand...Colt will not, RIA will not, Kimber will... haven't had time to experiment with others.


When I ordered the 6" .38 Super barrels from Fusion to fit on the Kimber and PARA longslides, Bob the owner, said it wouldn't work...I told him about the Kimber I already had and said it would work fine... He shipped the barrels and my local 1911 smith fitted them and they run 100% and VERY accurate...

Bob

Interesting. For many years I have owned a single M1911 frame set up for 9mm and .38 Super (also any other 9x23) using a 9mm slide, and .45ACP and .400 Cor-Bon with a .45 slide. Plus a .22 conversion. All combinations work well, but the .400 Cor-Bon shoots the tightest groups. Never really thought much about including .40 S&W, 10mm, or .357 Sig to the lineup as the .400 Cor-Bon and 9x23 Win cover the high-performance spectrum.

Main reason I did it was an old Guns&Ammo article back in the 1970s where they started with a Combat Commander in .38 Super and added barrels and slides from there... The .38 B&D was one of the rounds used off the .45 slide...

Have a .400 CorBon barrel fitted to a 1968 GM that has BoMar sights and a .22 Conversion Unit. Ended up with a couple boxes of ammo and found one of the very inexpensive ROTO 4M barrels from SARCO...shoots very well...

Had the chance to buy a 7.62x25 conversion barrel with the correct ramp and didn't decide to add it before they were gone...really REALLY stupid and I have lots of ammo from having a CZ52 and a Tok...


Bob