I have been thinking about this a while so going to present the question on 38 Super. What seems to be the advantage to owning 1. Have 2 45ACP's, a .40 Commander, and a 9mm. {1911's} I hand load, so not too worried about ammo price.
Are they far more accurate?
Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob

Since you already have a 9mm, I don't see any compelling reason add a .38 Super. This NRA article may be of interest in this regard: Head to Head: .38 Super vs. 9 mm | An Official Journal Of The NRA

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

.38 Super (Super .38 Auto correctly) is about 100-150 FPS faster than 9mm Parabellum, with a 130 grain bullet. As a result it is somewhat more powerful than 9mm. Accuracy is about equal to any other caliber on the 1911 platform. It is just another .38/9mm cartridge with the greatest attraction being its history. There is no reason you wouldn't like the cartridge, but it is all up to you to decide if you want a gun in this caliber. If you buy one I would recommend buying .38 Todd Jarrett cartridge cases from Starline. The .38 T.J. is a rimless version of .38 Super which is originally a semi-rimmed cartridge. Feeding and dependability can be somewhat more consistent with the .38 T.J. brass.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

About three years ago, I got bitten by the .38 Super bug and picked up this used Wilson Combat tuned Colt 1911. It’s a lot of fun to shoot and the round is easy to reload, more so than 9mm in my opinion. I don’t own a 9mm 1911, so I can’t make a comparison, but I put in a stouter spring and run loads through it that are way hotter than you’d see in a 9mm.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

I've shot and reloaded for the Super since the '70s, and have no argument with what the other guys said. The cases are a little easier to handle during the reloading process due to the longer case. It can be loaded to higher safe velocities than the 9MM, especially with the heavier 147 grain, etc. bullets. And I'll second use of the rimless type cases. I've used the .38 Super Comp, along with some .38TJ cases for years. Is the Super "far more accurate?", no, depends on the gun. I have found that if using a Colt with the traditional non ramped barrel, the Super does tend to feed more reliably than the 9mm cartridge with other than RN ball ammo. Using pistols with integrally ramped barrels, like Dan Wesson, Kimber, STI, Kimber, Springfield and others, it's a wash. Both cartridges just work..

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

It's called "Super Comp" brass, and it does feed better, IMO than standard Super brass. It's all I use to reload with. The 1911 was the first pistol chambered for .38 Super, and the caliber falls between .38 Spl. and .357 Magnum in power. I own a RIA 1911 chambered for it, and it's my favorite full-size 1911 to shoot (I also have 10mm and .45ACP full-size 1911's, as well as Commander sized 1911's in 9mm and .40S&W). In comparison, I hardly ever shoot the 9mm Commander.

All my 1911's are .45, but I also have been bitten by the .38 Super Automatic bug. For 2024 either a Colt 1911 or a Dan Wesson Guardian, in 38 Super, is the only item on my want list. If my memory is correct the caliber is the one JMB believed to be the best for the Government platform. If true, that alone is reason enough for me.

I've never been a fan of the 9mm in a 1911. I had one back about 35 years ago and could never get it to cycle properly because of the short OAL. But I found the .38 Super to be great in the 1911, again because of a longer OAL.

Since you handload, you can safely get the Super to shoot a much faster velocity safely than the 9mm. My favorite bullet weight is 125 gr. With the right powders, you can easily get velocities of 1,400 fps. Essentially .357 Magnum performance.

The Para Ordnance I carry sometimes is below. It's a full size gun by all means, but the Galco shoulder holster makes it easy to carry. I'm not using reloads as a carry ammo (yet), so I carry Underwood JHP ammo. They publish a velocity of 1,350 with a 125 gr JHP that looks like a Sierra bullet. I get 1,351 in my 5" Nowlin barrel with a fully supported chamber. It's easy to shoot.

This is not correct! There are three versions of .38 Super brass. Your trying to "correct " my reply falls short! The .38 Todd Jarrett I mentioned is a completely rimless variant of the original .38 Super for the reasons I posted. The .38 Super Comp. Is sort of the same idea as .38 TJ, but is a compromise. The TJ is completely rimless but the Super Comp rim is slightly larger than the TJ but smaller than the original case. The idea was the same for both, to improve reliability and feeding. Most will not be able to see any difference between the two variations, but they are not the same! All three versions of .38 Super are available from Starline.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I have a Rock Island M1911 in 9mm that I like very much. I ordered a 38 Super barrel from them and it fit and functioned perfectly. I use a slightly stiffer spring for 38 Super mode. I like it that way so much I am getting a 38 Super barrel for my other 9mm.

I have been shooting and hand loading for 38 SUPER cartridge perhaps four decades now

I find the cartridge to be inherently more accurate than it's a smaller 9MM sibling

Additionally the report is different the 38 SUPER is more of a kaboom than a bang

In addition to a few 1911s I have opened up all of my Smith and Wesson model 940s to accept 38 super plus I have a few other odds and ends like a pair of EAA witness which is absolutely fantastic

In 1996 Winchester introduced the 9x23 Winchester cartridge. This was a rimless 38 SUPER dimensioned cartridge that operates 55,000 PSI. This cartridge will push a 125 grain projectile in excess of 1450 feet per second from a 5 inch 1911


Since we are on the Smith and Wesson Forum I will mention that I have converted spare cylinders for a couple of my model 627 revolvers that are chambered for 9x23 Winchester. Since they are revolvers which headspace on the moon clip, every shorter variation of the cartridge can be fired safely all the way down to 380 ACP

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"Acta non verba"

A 9mm M1911 can be converted to .38 Super by simply changing barrels and magazines, and, possibly, recoil springs. Or vice versa. A .45 ACP can be converted to 9mm or .38 Super by changing slide, barrels, magazines, and ejector. The same slide can be used for 9mm and .38 Super. I have done that for a great many years. Mine uses the unsupported chamber barrels.

While a .38 Super magazine may handle 9mm, I have found that to be unreliable. .38 Super cartridges cannot be used in 9mm magazines. There should be no need to "fit" a .38 Super barrel into a 9mm slide. Should be a simple drop-in replacement. I have no problem firing 9x23 Win loads in mine, but I normally use lighter loads. Starline .38 Super Comp cases work very well in my gun, but I also reload ordinary .38 Super semi-rim cases. If you want, for some reason, to load very hot loads for use in a .38 barrel with an unsupported chamber, using 9x23 Win cases is strongly advised. Except they are very difficult to come by today.

Regarding a .38 Super barrel, it should be one which headspaces on the case mouth. Old barrels headspaced on the case semi-rim, and you do not want that.

I have a similar setup with an EAA Witness. One frame, two slides, three barrels, and appropriate magazines and springs. .45 ACP, .38 Super/9x23, and 9mm all on one frame.

I have had a 38Super Commander for about 34 years. From time to time during those years I have shot it quite a bit. I like it and will probably never part with it. Having said that, if I didn't have it, I would opt for a Commander in 9mm. I shoot so much 9mm it is just as easy to consentrate on one less caliber to reload for.
Also, for what it is worth, whether it be factory ammo or my reloads, I have never had reliability issues with the original Super brass.

I've never shot a 9mm 1911. I found this .38 Super at a local pawn shop and it shoots great.

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bananaman...if you don't want to invest in a whole new gun both your .40 Commander and 9mm can be turned into .38 Super with just a barrel, magazine and correct recoil spring...

Have been loading for, carrying and collection Supers of all kinds since 1980. Started out with a 1969 Colt SUPER .38 and a 1952 Commander and just kept building from there. The 52 Commander was carried daily for 27 years including several years while I was with Dallas PD... Although no longer carried much it did shoot an IDPA match today...

As to why the Super...speed, power, accuracy and versatility... One can load bullets from 80-180 grains, .355, .356 or .357, something that the 9mm nor the 9x23 can do because the Super is a straight walled case. It also makes a better snubbie round because it won't back out of the chamber and tie up the gun like a 9mm+P will...

Probably the only drawback is that because of it's length it can't fit the compact frame sizes that a 9mm and .40 can use...

As to the standard .38 Super case vs. the rimless designs, they were invented because double stack magazines like the 2011s and EEA Witness had feeding problems because of the rims... I've got two dozen semis in .38 Super and zero issues with feeding and don't own one piece of non-Super brass.

38 Super

Corbon

38 Super Loads: We Like Buffalo Bores Jacketed HPs - Gun Tests

How Does

Trail gun perfection: Kimber's .38 super stainless target II. - Free Online Library

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/38-supers.19081/

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/38-super-automatic-p

https://reloadammo.com/reloading-380-super-auto/

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...r-loads/326242




If I had one centerfire round left it would be a Super...

1969 SUPER .38

1952 Commander

649 and 686-7

66-2 3"

Gary Reeder Trail Gun...

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And I stand corrected; I was not aware of the TJ case. Al and I discussed the differences at length in a PM. When it is measured out, the difference is about 0.003" in diameter, almost invisible to the eye even when compared side-by-side, but it apparently makes a difference, as so many situations of slightly different dimensions do in firearms.

I have always been strangely attracted to the .38 Super. Maybe because it (in the form of the .38 ACP) was one of the earliest cartridges for the then-new semiauto pistols. And also because there are many variations of the 9x23 cartridge worldwide. No question that it can be loaded up to near-.357 Mag performance if you want to go there. I usually do not.

Regarding the .38 TJ vs. the .38 Super Comp cases, I don't believe there is much difference. I have never so much as seen a .38 TJ case, but from what I have read about it, It seems to be a little heavier than the .38 Super and .38 Super Comp brass and therefore more suitable for high pressure loads. At one of the SHOT Shows pre-Covid, I cornered one of the Starline guys to talk about the .38 Super Comp. At the time he told me that its case was strong enough to handle the hottest loads I wanted to make, and that seems to be true. However, I have over 500 9x23 Win cases that I prefer to use for top end ballistics (always use SR primers for those). My recommendation to anyone reloading for a .38 Super Auto pistol is to always use the rimless .38 Super Comp cases, provided your barrel headspaces on the case mouth. Nothing wrong with using standard .38 Super cases for lighter factory level loadings, but I just prefer rimless brass.

A 9x23 should be set up like a .45 Super...flat bottom firing pin stop, heavier main spring, firing pin spring and recoil spring...just trying to slow down the unlocking of the slide... Brass distance thrown is second only to a full power 10mm...

Bought a couple of cases of the Winchester 125 FP and a few boxes of the SilverTip HPs a long time ago...don't shoot it very often and have never bother reloading any... Just don't find it very pleasant to shoot...

Bob

I’ve got a bunch of Colt pistols, all .45 with the exception of my two .38 Supers. One is a Colt Classic, the other is a stainless Competition. I really, really like the .38 Super, one of them goes with me almost every time I go to the range. Last year I fired about 1,200 rounds of Super, mostly reloads. My reloads are 124gr FMJ with Unique. The Super is accurate and fun to shoot. I even qualify with my .38 Super for work, patiently explaining “Yes, it is a Colt, but it’s a .38 not a .45”. My hollow point ammo is CorBon. I will never part with my Supers.

A few years back my local cop shop got a case of .38 Super ball ammo by mistake. It caused them a lot of grief with people confusing it for .38 Special and then returning it. They finally sold it to me for $10 a box to get rid of it, after I repeatedly assured them that I knew it was not .38 Special.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I had a Colt Series 70 38 Super about 15 years ago that I either sold or traded and regretted it ever since. I recently helped a family member sell their inherited guns from her father’s collection and I was able to get this 1968 Colt Super. They weren’t gun people and unfortunately didn’t store these guns well but I was able to get most of the rust specks off using Kroil and Bronze wool and it’ll be fine for a shooter. This one will stay will be passed down to my kids when I’m gone. First one is the Series 70 and second one is the 1968 with replacement grips, which are much better than the pearl grips that were on it.

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Get off my lawn!

I like shooting the .38 Super more than any of the major 1911 calibers. You can make them work, but in a standard length 1911, neither the 9 or .40SW is just quite right, but a 1911 works nicely with the Super and the 10, IMO. The Super is quick, so it is easy to shoot more accurately offhand. It is not as follow-through sensitive as the .45, and it doesn’t have the nasty recoil of a full-charge 10. I like all three rounds, but if cost is no object, I prefer shooting the Super for enjoyment, and carrying the .45. I don’t live in dangerous-critter country, so a 10 is not all that topical for me.

I have not tried the .38 TJ brass, but the Starline Super Comp brass works perfectly in all of my guns. When buying new, it is my first choice.

I’m another huge fan of .38 Super. My dad was into .38 Super when I was a kid and I started loading and shooting it for IPSC / USPSA in the early 90’s. No idea how many major loads I’ve loaded and shot. I was shooting a custom comp gun built on a Caspian high capacity frame with an Aimpoint red dot. I was loading a 124 jacketed bullets to 1400fps using WW540 and shooting through a fully supported barrel. Never attempt this kind of power unless you have a ramped fully supported chamber. I always used shock buffers and sprung my gun correctly.

38 Super is just a more versatile cartridge. No issues with 9mm because factory ammo is more readily available and there’s a huge choice in projectiles and loads but .38 super gives you more options at the upper end. Pretty much any projectile available for 9mm can be used in reloading 38 super. You have a choice in semi rimmed or rimless brass as well. For those that don’t reload I’d say buy a 9mm but for reloaded 38 super really shines.

If you buy a Super I’d recommend only buying one with a ramped supported chamber. A supported chamber opens up that higher end of loads. I’d also suggest a steel frame. I have a Colt LW Commander in 38 super and like it but it doesn’t have a supported chamber and the frame is alloy so I don’t shoot hot loads in it. I also have a Kimber Eclipse Target with a supported chamber and steel frame. In my opinion this is a first class 38 super and handles my hot loads with ease. I’m not at all concerned about wearing the frame with proper springs and a shock buffer plus it’s a beautifully made gun.

Some folks are loading 9mm up in that range but I’d be afraid to.

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Everybody needs at least one...
Here's mine from 1969 sporting some ivories.

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It's my opinion that the 38 Auto (later made into the 38 Super) was the first handgun cartridge Browning designed. The 32 Auto was first commercially, but the slightly later 38 Auto I believe was used in Browning's 1894 pistol.

As I recollect, the 38 TJ has a wider extractor groove than the 38 SuperComp.

Do NOT use 9x23 loads in a 9mm Largo!

I forgot to mention that the 38 Super semi-rim has quite a bit of variation. For another conversation, I tried a sample size of 160 38 Super cases in a 9mm Luger shell holder. Of those, 57 fit the 9mm shell holder. So about 1 in 3 38 Super cases have rims closer to 9mm Luger, at least in this sample.

I would like to see the 38 Super case be rimless and leave the 338 Auto cxases as semi-rimmed.

This is about the same situation that the .38-44 finds itself in... Same case as the parent round .38 Special made at a time when only some of the guns could take the extra pressure.

Now with modern manufacturing techniques and metallurgy .38-44s can be run in almost all the .38 Specials made but those companies that subscribe to SAAMI won't load it due to perceived liability reasons...

Thanks to the boutique ammo manufacturers we have both .38-44s and .38 Super rounds that bring out the full potential of both rounds.

Lost River Ammo made a run of 147 grain "Outdoorsman" ammo in .38 Super. Got two boxes and it is way more than a 9mm 147 can ever be...

3" Defender................1149 fps
4.25" Commander.......1228 fps
5" Kimber...................1253 fps
6" Kimber...................1301 fps
The most ES for all the guns was 23fps

It isn't listed on his website but he may have some left...

Bob

This appears to be a Clark 1911, is it marked as such? Might explain why it shoots great!

The .38 Super Comp is essentially that. It also has a non-tapered body like the .38 Super. Most, if not all, of the various 9x23 cases have a slight taper but will work OK in a .38 Super chamber, as there is only a very slight dimensional difference. I load both using .38 Super dies, even though I also have a 9x23 die set. My 1911 barrel has a 9x23 Win chamber, but .38 Super ammunition fits and functions fine with it. BTW, some brands of .38 Super ammunition will fit and fire in some .38 Special/.357 revolvers. Some won't.

Same here. My Para Ordnance has never had any issues because of the standard .38 Super case, and I've shot tens of thousands of rounds with it.

It's possible. It does have a Clark barrel.

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Thanks for the responses! If I do anything will get a SUPER barrel and convert my 9mm. Bob

I attached an image from Brad Miller's old .38Super.net site illustrating the different .38 Super type cases. I can use the same shell plate on my Dillon press for 9mm, 9X23mm, .38S and .38SC. But the .38TJ extractor groove and rim dimensions are enough different, that I have to use a different shell plate.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

I'd like to have a modern .38 Super with a barrel that headspaces on the case mouth and maybe even a fully supported barrel that could handle some upper level handloads. I do have this nice old 1948 Colt example. I only fire factory loads in it. Accuracy is OK but I know a proper barrel generally improves them considerably.

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I cannot comment from any personal experience, but my understanding is that newer .38 Super barrels which headspace on the case mouth group much tighter than the old Colt .38 Super barrels which headspace on the semi-rim. My EAA Witness has a supported .38 Super chamber, my Colt .38 barrel has an unsupported chamber. Yet I have not experienced any case blowouts with it even with very warm loads. It is actually a 9mm barrel which I had rechambered to 9x23 Win by a friend who had a cutter. A very simple way to go.

I didn't think I would reach this point in my firearms journey, but last week I bought ammo in a caliber I do not own (yet )



A new Dan Wesson or new Colt 1911? I am starting to think the rarity of the DW works against it. I acquired a new Colt Commander a little over a year and it is a really good pistol. Hmmmm....

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Very nice pistol! It looks fully custom. I had one a. Lot like that built on a Caspian 19 round frame. Excellent shooting gun! It had about a pound and a half trigger and was built the way a gun should be. It was fast!

I originally used an Ampoint red dot but had two self district. There’s pretty much no recoil with major loads but there’s a shock impulse that just destroyed dots. The tubes would literally unscrew themselves from the main body of the dot. I had one come apart during the Tennessee USPSA match many years ago. I wound up changing the mount to use a dovetail which I had milled in the body of a Propoint like yours. That fixed the problem but eventually the frame cracked along the rail. I had that welded and machined but I lost confidence in it. I can’t really complain. I used it for quite a few years and took quite a few nice prizes at matches and certainly had a lot of fun shooting it.

Great gun!

I have a .38 super built on a Caspian long slide frame with a Clark custom barrel, Red insert front sight, US tactical system rear adjustable, & Nowlin Arms grips. The slide is unmarked, but very finely machined & finished. A friend from many years ago got most of it done. I took it to a 1911 guru and he finished reaming, tuning & polishing it. It's my favorite 1911 platform as it is pleasant to shoot & groups like a rifle.

I have a couple of Kimbers in .45 and the Super will shoot right along with them and out shoot them occasionally.

-don

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SWCA LM#2190 SWHF#414

My first .38 Super pistol wasn't really a .38 Super. Back in the late 1960s I bought a fairly crudely finished Spanish Llama "Extra" Military pistol from the pre-WWII period, essentially a M1911 knockoff but slimmed down a little. I believe it set me back around $25. They werel common finds at gun shows back then. It was actually chambered in 9x23 Largo. That ammunition was a little difficult to find, but it handled .38 Super just fine. I also fired some 9x23 Steyr in it which worked OK. The slide was marked "9mm/38" which meant that it would fire both 9mm Largo or .38 Super, and it did. I even used some 9x19 in it, but that proved to be a bad idea as I broke the extractor claw doing that. I welded and filed the extractor claw to shape and it worked. I traded it off for something else about 10 years later and immediately found that I really missed the Llama. Except for the crude arsenal reblue, it was a fine pistol.

The custom gun above looks like a Clark...as I recall that lug at the end of the dustcover was a Clark signature...

TeamPB...A Colt Commander will run you $2k...a friend just bought one of the stainless 2005 models LNIB and paid $2100...he loves it... There is a two tone TALO Commander and they are about the same money...that said...

The DW Guardian is a better gun... They only make a run of 50 a year so are sometimes hard to find... I have one that is also fitted with a 9mm barrel, Marvel .22 Conversion Unit and also found a complete parts kit on ebay in .45 ACP...dropped right on... The basic gun new is about $1600...just saw a LNIB used one go for $1300...so they are out there...but...

If you want REALLY cheap but all forged parts Commander Bobtail, get a TISAS Stingray 9mm and there is a vendor on ebay who has the correct Nowlin/Wilson ramped 4.25" barrel for $112.... Gun will cost about $550. Bought one just to see what they are all about and it shoots right along with the DW...


Bob..

I added a fitted 38 Super barrel to my DW Pointman PM-9 so you can swap between the two at will but I leave it as a Super since I have plenty of other pistols to shoot 9x19 in.

I like to think of the 38 Super as the earliest magnum so why not have fun with it?

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Waiting for the break of day

I've had a few Super .38s over the years. Down to two now, a Wilsonized Colt and a Dan Wesson Guardian.

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Living a dream - S&WCA #2364

I have two Supers. One is a current Colt Gov’t model. The other is a 1952 Colt Gov’t. model that has been fitted with a Barsto barrel that headspaces on the case mouth. Some of the old Colts had accuracy problems because they headspaced on the rim - this one has no accuracy problems at all. I mostly shoot the newer gun and I particularly like it for long range plinking out beyond 100 yds. - sometimes way beyond. Most 38 Super factory ammo is little better than 9mm, but I’ve found it fairly easy to get a handload that will send a 124 gr bullet over 1400 fps even in an unsupported Colt barrel.. Starline brass is especially good for that. That’s a load that makes for a good defensive pistol so that’s what I carry when I carry the Super for defensive use. I still shoot more .45’s than Supers but it’s a great cartridge and much fun at longer range than the .45 ACP.

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Everybody could shoot

You'd need to check with the barrel maker, but I believe everyone these days is headspacing the Super on the case mouth.

I only one one .38 Super, a Colt O2991 I bought new a dozen years ago or so. Nothing fancy, just blued steel and walnut, what a nice pistol that is really enjoyable to shoot.

No big trick to come up with .38 Super handloads that far outperform factory loads even if used in unsupported chambers. But as I have earlier stated, I use the heavy 9x23 Win cases for such loads just for extra safety. At least for me, AA#5 works best for that purpose as it has a high bulk density that allows large charges to fit into the case. My top load is a 124 grain jacketed bullet with 8.6 grains of AA#5. It produces a MV around 1450 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. Use a heavy recoil spring.

Nothing like the 38 Super ... IF you load it as a Super. Otherwise, it's just another 9mm.

I chronographed 19 published maximum loads. I found only 2 powders that lived up to the hype, which is to make major power factor of 165 with a minor caliber. In the case of a 124/125 grain bullet, that's essentially 1350 fps. There are other powders in use, but that's because competitors hot-rod the round, loading as much as 2-3 grains over maximum published charges.

IMO, for shooting paper, it certainly has nothing over the 9mm or 45ACP. For hunting, it can't compete with the boutique 10mm. For self-defense, well ... the best thing in that category will always be debatable. I think it would shine at a water-jug-shooting festival.

I have one, and like it, but it's really just a novelty and I'm doubtful it will ever become common. If you aren't pushing a 124/125 grain bullet to at least 1250 fps with a .38 Super, then you're just shooting another 9mm. Nothing wrong with that. Many, myself included, shoot thousands of 38+P's thru 357 magnum guns. But every now and then it's fun to put the pedal to the floor.

I'm an accuracy buff, so I picked one bullet (Hornady 125HAP) and screened 19 powders.
I don't have a particular need for a major power factor and no wish to hot rod the cartridge as some do. So I selected charges that were 3-5% below published maximums.

I set up to record velocities at 10 feet and accuracy at 50 yards.



After two sessions I had a couple of published recipes (Ramshot Silhouette and AA7) shooting the 125HAP under 3" with average velocities of 1346 and 1366 fps and Power factors around 170 without exceeding published max charges...

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

I am very pleased so far, stripped, cleaned and lubed 2024 DW Guardian .38 Super. My LGS worked at getting it for me and I appreciate them for that. First purchase of 2024:

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I have an enhanced Colt Competition Stainless 38 Super and I love it. It works well. The only thing I don't like is hunting the brass at the range, it blends in too much with 9mm and .40. Someday maybe I'll get a vintage one, but right now, if I'm going to spend an arm and a leg, I'll buy another Smith revolver.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed