I put this thread here, but it would also fit in reloading or concealed carry and self defense, depending on your preferences and priorities.

My goal has been to find a comparatively inexpensive bullet that I could reload that would give good expansion and penetration at subsonic velocities from my suppressed MP5.

The benchmark budget factory load so far has been the Winchester Defense 147 gr JHP. It can be had for $23.99 per box of 50 from a couple vendors with free shipping for an order of $200 or more. That sets the target price to beat at $0.48 per round.

I tried Berry’s Hybrid hollow points a couple years ago and was disappointed with the performance. It would achieve a minimum of 12” of penetration with good expansion but only over a very narrow velocity range, far better suited to short barrel sub compact and compact pistols.

However, I recently saw a decent review of the Xtreme X-Def plated hollow points and figured I’d give them a try. At $20.86 per box of 100 and $10 to ship 500 of them, it’s $0.23 per bullet. Processed once fired brass is $0.04 each, primers are $0.08 each at present, and powder costs around $0.02 per round, for a total of $0.37 per round, if I count the brass as expendable and $0.33 per round if I don’t.

I currently shoot Xtreme 147 gr heavy plated concave base round nose bullets as a practice/plinking load, loaded to 1050 fps.

I opted to use the same powder charge with the X-Def as a starter. For lack of any specified OAL I ran the first one into the seating die set up for the plated RN bullets. The end result looked about right and fit the magazine so I went with it. I figured if it shot well, it would keep it very simple not having to readjust anything on the tool head.

At the range they functioned reliably and showed little or no point deformation with fed and then ejected bullets. They also didn’t demonstrate any set back.

Point deformation has been an issue with accuracy with some hollow points at 100 yards and it’s why the accuracy with Winchester JHPs isn’t what it probably should be in my MP5.

The average velocity of the 147 gr X-Def bullets was essentially spot on the desired target velocity at an average of 1047 fps in my MP5. Any differences in bearing surface or “stickiness” in the bore between the RN and X-Def bullets that might affect velocity are apparently not significant.

Accuracy was excellent for a SMG style firearm with the smallest 5 shot 30 yard group measuring .592” with an average group size of .833”. That’s an average group size of 2.6 MOA.

That compares extremely well to the 3.3 MOA average group size I get with the Winchester hollow points out to 100 yards.

Xtreme X-Def:



With good accuracy and the velocity where I’d like to have it, I decided it was worth gel testing to see if that velocity produced acceptable penetration and expansion.

Penetration was consistent at 14”, with about 3/4” of suck back in the gel.

Xtreme X-Def:



That was nearly identical to the penetration of the barely subsonic Winchester load. At 1119 fps the Winchester round would be supersonic at temps below about 63 degrees F. I prefer to keep the velocity down around 1050 fps, which will keep the bullet subsonic down to almost 0 degrees F.

Winchester JHP:



Expansion of the 147 gr X-Def bullets was impressive with an average expansion measured between opposite petals of .616” across both bullets tested. Despite being a fairly inexpensive plated bullet, the expansion looked more like a modern hollow point, than an old school mushrooming design.

Xtreme X-Def:



In comparison, the Winchester Defense JHP also expanded well at an average velocity of 1,099 fps with an average expansion of .610”, displaying a more traditional mushroom shaped expansion.

Winchester JHP:



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I also tested the X-Def using the same load in my 4” Compact Hi Power.

I only fired one round and it clocked 900 fps with 18” of penetration.

Xtreme X-Def:



Expansion was less impressive, averaging .516”. However, that’s still 146% of the original bullet diameter, and close enough to the FBI 150% requirement not to make a significant difference.

Xtreme X-Def:



It also compared well to the Winchester Defense round fired in the same 4” barrel with a velocity of 937 fps, and an average expanded diameter of .505”.



Penetration for the Winchester round was also identical at 18”.



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In my MP5, the 147 gr X-Def bullet on top of a max load (Hornady 11th edition) of HS-6 is perfect for my suppressed MP5 with an ideal velocity, 174% expansion and 14” penetration.

In my 4” pistol, a more suitable powder could boost velocity by about 50 fps, almost certainly getting the expansion well over the 150% threshold and reducing the penetration to the 16” range.

In the big picture that makes the X-Def very impressive in a 8.9” barrel by any standard, not just for a relatively inexpensive plated hollow point. It also isn’t bad in a 4” barrel and in a +P load in a 4” or even better a 5” barrel I suspect it would be pretty impressive as well.

It has a much wider expansion envelope a the Berry’s Hybrid Hollow point, at least in my testing, and it’s on par with the Winchester JHP.

Amigo, I wish I could read reports that detailed and well documented from the gun magazines that I pay for. Thank you for taking the time to write it up and post it along with the photos - that was very kind of you!

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Now go make God proud...

There's always the Ammo subforum.

https://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/

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Release the Kraken

I thought about it, but the Xtreme X-Def bullets are not, to my knowledge, loaded in name brand new commercial ammunition, and even if they were, they are primarily a reloading component.

The Reloading forum would have been a better fit than the Ammo forum.

However, the major thrust of the post is suitability in a PCC or SMG type firearm, and in particular an MP5 which isn’t S&W.


It has possible self defense applications, but many folks don’t like the idea of handloaded self defense ammo. And personally, I’m a big believer in having range ammo - that happens to be well suited to the very unlikely possibility of a self defense use. Regular practice makes a far bigger contribution to effectiveness than ammo choice.

No problem. I have chronographed my own handloads for at least 30 years, and I started gel testing loads about a decade ago as it was hard to find accurate, reliable data, especially for some of the more unique applications out there.

In some cases you can extrapolate performance, but when it comes to hollow point expansion you have to have some idea of the upper and lower velocity limits.

My hope is this might help steer folks in the right direction.

I have an advantage of:
- not having to worry about advertising or offending sponsors;
- I don’t have an editor limiting column inches; and
- I don’t have an attorney worried about getting sued, thinking the more I say the greater the liability.

Those three things have been slowly killing the credibility of gun magazines for forty years, and monetized YouTube sites for a least a decade.