Pocket 9 vs .380?

A .380 Sig 365 weighs significantly less than the 9mm counterpart. I pocket carry quite a bit due to work restrictions and because in Summer it’s just easier to grab and go. One thing I have learned is that weight is more of a determining factor than overall size when pocket carrying, at least for me. I bought the 380 Sig because I have and like the 9mm and because my experience with the LCP max was very bad. Quite interesting is that I shoot the 380 version very well, dare I say much better than the 9. So for me the confidence factor is what makes the decision.

cd228 said:

Otis, help me bring this back on topic.

Are you intending to pocket carry or did you use the phrase Pocket 9 to describe the current micro compact 9mm handguns? Personally, I wouldn't pocket carry either of the two pistols you mentioned. I own a SIG 365.

If you are pocket carrying, I stand by my above comment that pistol weight and size of the pocket are significant. Also factor in the size and weight of the pocket holster, to break up the outline of the pistol, position it for proper draw and to prevent something from accidentally engaging the trigger. I also recommend that if you pocket carry, the pocket becomes a "gun only" pocket, that way nothing accidentally fires the gun, damage the gun or causes a malfunction. Don't be Plaxico Burress.

As mentioned above, if you leave the gun home because it's a problem carrying it, it's terminal ballistic potential means absolutely nothing. The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun.

If you are looking at IWB or similar that changes the discussion.

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Yes, I own a .380 Ruger LCP Max and a CZ 2075 Rami and a 1976 vintage Browning Hi Power. I use the LCP Max primarily for pocket carry (church). The introduction of the new S&W Bodyguard 2.0 sparked this conversation. I had owned a Sig P365 in the past. I didn't realize how small the Sig P365 actually is. Debating if I will dump my LCP Max in favor of the BG 2.0. Thinking that if I go with a new pocket pistol, why not go 9mm. Lesser capacity, but more power. I'm confident that the ergonomics of the BG 2.0 are probably superior to the LCP Max. Ergonomics are pretty important to me. I always use a pocket holster for pocket carry in a pocket that is solely dedicated to concealed carry.

I’ve been in a gunfight w/my issued revolver and had the experience of running out of ammo. More ammo is always better, don’t get too hung up on the caliber wars. Someone posted that weight gets a vote but doubt there’s much difference between these guns when they’re both fully loaded.

Honestly ... I would choose the gun I could shoot most accurately ...
and the one that allowed a fast accurate follow up shot just in case the first shot didn't ... "count" .
I don't care what the UTube Experts say ... in a gunfight only hits count ... and you can take that to the bank .

If there is any way to test fire both before buying ... Do So ... it could tell you all you want to know .
Gary

I'm retired now. I bought a bunch of Wrangler Flex Jeans on Amazon a few years back. Stretchable waistband and deep front pockets. I have a Springfield Hellcat that pretty much lives in the front pocket in either a DeSantis or Alabama Holster.

Pocket carry, I'd look at the M&P Bodyguard 380. Nice long DA trigger pull when it's next to your junk gives a little relief. A Ruger LCP Max 380 has a lighter trigger, more rounds and a little more size, so it's a little harder to pocket carry, but a lot easier to shoot accurately. I don't pocket carry either, I have AIWB holsters for both, but either one is compact enough for pocket carry.

As for micro 9's, I had a Glock 43 and currently have a 1.0 M&P Shield, neither were/are small enough for me to pocket carry, but I suppose if you're a lot bigger than me, they might work, but I very much doubt it. I stuck with AIWB holsters for those two.

As for my Sig P365, definitely won't work for pocket carry, too big

otis24 said:

Yes, I own a .380 Ruger LCP Max and a CZ 2075 Rami and a 1976 vintage Browning Hi Power. I use the LCP Max primarily for pocket carry (church). The introduction of the new S&W Bodyguard 2.0 sparked this conversation. I had owned a Sig P365 in the past. I didn't realize how small the Sig P365 actually is. Debating if I will dump my LCP Max in favor of the BG 2.0. Thinking that if I go with a new pocket pistol, why not go 9mm. Lesser capacity, but more power. I'm confident that the ergonomics of the BG 2.0 are probably superior to the LCP Max. Ergonomics are pretty important to me. I always use a pocket holster for pocket carry in a pocket that is solely dedicated to concealed carry.

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Thank you for that additional info, it definitely frames it better. If we were collocated I'd just hand you my 365 and the Nemisis holster I've got and let you shoot it. You are correct, the 365 is a small gun for what it does. However, mine felt particularly heavy in the pocket. That could be a factor of the pants themselves. Also given the word "feels" is in that sentence indicates that it's a personnal opinion vs quantifiable fact. I might just need pants with better pockets.

I don't shoot .380, but I can say that the 365 is very "shootable" and suprisingly accurate with a 147gr AE FMJ and Speer 147gr GD G2. If you were going to belt carry the pistol, I'd recommend the 365.

Unfortunately, the best way to answer the BG vs Ruger max question IMHO is a shoot off and data mine other users maintenance experience.

Old cop said:

I’ve been in a gunfight w/my issued revolver and had the experience of running out of ammo. More ammo is always better, don’t get too hung up on the caliber wars. Someone posted that weight gets a vote but doubt there’s much difference between these guns when they’re both fully loaded.

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Ruger Max weighs 10.6 oz and the SIG 365 weighs 17.8oz. Both weights are from the manufacturers website. So around a 7 oz difference before factoring in differences in ammo weight. By comparison a S&W Model 60 weighs 21.5 ozs and a 637 is 14.5 oz. An approximate 7 once difference in weight as well. To me there is a perceptible difference in weight of the two different revolvers, I haven't handled a ruger max IOT compare it to my 365.

I prefer to refer to them as sub compact and Micro sized 9mms. I am not a fan of pocket carry when they conceal better in an IWB holster and are more practical to draw under stress.

That said, some of the smaller 9mm pistols can be pretty snappy and can be harder to shoot well at speed, particularly of the recoil is objectionable enough that you don’t practice with it enough.

Generally speaking for several years I felt the CZ 2075 RAMI (far left) was the smallest and lightest 9mm I could shoot well at speed.

It’s not much larger than most .380s but as a double stack pistol it has a a bit more weight and a much wider backstrap.



In length width and height it also wasn’t much larger than the Kimber Micro .380, which despite being not much more than half the weight of a PP series .380 has about the same felt recoil due to the locked breech.




The The Kimber Micro 9 is in the same ball park as the Beretta 80X .380, which while larger than most .380s is high capacity and an exceptionally good shooting and reliable pistol. It offers 13 rounds of .380 compared to 7 rounds of 9mm in the Micro 9.



While I liked the size of the Kimber Micro 9, it was a bit light to shoot well at speed. However I cam across the compensated version and found it shoots extremely well. It makes enough difference to make a difference.



Consequently, if I carry a sub compact pistol it’s either the compensated Micro 9 or the Bereta 80X. I will aos still carry the Kimber Micro .380 in an ankle holster as a backup.

BB57, I have a CZ Rami and love it!

All that matters is your skill level, a gun that is reliable, and your willingness to use it if necessary. Caliber and bullet design are immaterial in self defense scenarios.
Of course size and weight are relevant as well. A gun that is too big or heavy is a nuisance and will not be carried.
I have all kinds of handguns in a variety of calibers and sizes, but will not carry anything that won't fit in my right-front pants pocket. That means that on any given day I might be carrying a small revolver or auto, in .380, .38, or .22 LR. ,
One, two, or three decent torso shots in an attacker will save your bacon.
Remember, anyone that needs shooting once deserves to be shot at least twice.

While there have been some pretty neat 380's made over the last century and especially over the last few years, the 380 caliber doesn't cut it for me as a SD gun. Yes, small, light and compact but lacks true performance IMHO. Yes, better than a knife but not even close to the performance of one of the new Micro 9's like the Sig P365, SA Hellcat, FN Reflex, etc. etc.

My P365 is a little larger and does weigh more than let's say a Ruger LCP Max in .380, but it holds 11 rounds of 9mm (same as the Ruger LCP Max) and at just under 18 ounces it is easy to pocket carry every day.

As far as answering your original question, I guess I'd take a lesser capacity 9mm over a larger capacity 380. But there is no real reason you can't have the best of both worlds by going with a Micro 9.

Interesting thread, let me raise a few points.

While the overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses don't involve actually shooting someone, the fact is that you may have to. Don't lose sight of the fact that if you're in that tiny minority, you're fighting for your life and the continued welfare of your family. Your question should be "How would my family survive if I'm dead?"

First priority is your ability to effectively use the firearm in question. Can you quickly hit vital areas and maintain a 1 accurate shot per second cadence of fire? Size of the firearm can definitely matter here.

Second priority is adequate penetration. Can the selected caliber get the job done? A distinguished member here reviewed several hundred homicide cases and found .380 expanding bullets generally don't reach vital areas. Also, while those cases resulted in death, did they STOP? We don't know.

I worked for decades under Federal regulations. Defensive handgun ammunition was required to produce no less than 200 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Per manufacturers paper, standard pressure .38 Spl does this in a 4 inch barrel, .380 doesn't. Real world results will be lower and shorter barrels will be even worse. There are several 9mm v .380 threads here that cover this in greater detail.

There's also a couple of threads here about the BG .380. With all due respect for S&W, who are trying to fill a market "need", I think the products in this class are what Jeff Cooper was referring to as "things you tote when you don't want to carry a gun." It's not my choice or situation, but I'd go with the 9 and upsize if necessary.

Anyone here care to be shot with a 380 or 22 for that matter at any distance?

Most likely if I have to use it the assailant will be drunk or high on something. Also who knows physical size. At gun shows I see questionable people looking at and buying body armor if its available.

I go with 9mm. I carry a Sig 365 with +p 124 Gold dots. During coat season and circumstances a Glock 23 with 165 gr Hydra shocks.

ladder13 said:

Anyone here care to be shot with a 380 or 22 for that matter at any distance?

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I wouldn't care to get get shot with a BB gun. That doesn't mean I want to carry it for self-defense

IMHO, while there is certainly a size and weight difference between the two, the difference in performance far far outweighs the extra size and weight! The size and weight of the micro 9's is not a hinderance and anyone who carries a Chief's Special with only 5 rounds is carrying more weight and bulk than the Micro's - wether or not they realize it.

I’m rocking a 380 with no concerns, it’s a 9mm at close quarters.

chief38 said:

IMHO, while there is certainly a size and weight difference between the two, the difference in performance far far outweighs the extra size and weight! The size and weight of the micro 9's is not a hinderance and anyone who carries a Chief's Special with only 5 rounds is carrying more weight and bulk than the Micro's - wether or not they realize it.

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I realize it and it's okay.

I have owned a 365 since its debut. It does not work well with lots of jeans or shorts. Now, cargo pants, sure.