I realize that they are unlawful in most if not all states and I totally understand why. But, I think that it was made law way back when...when there was not a hand gun that had that amount of power and still be conceallable, (sp). Bonnie and Clide days I'm guessing.

But in todays ways, it really is not a big deal in my opinion. They are bulky and not all that effective compaired to what's legal to purchase.

What about the 3" SW-500? And what about the Taruas Judge which is a .410 sawed off shot gun that is only 6" long? A sawed off .410 shot gun found in your rig will put ya in jail for a some time.

My old neighbor had a .410 pistol single shot he used to pop his cows off with but he used a slug.

I know the law will not change but I think it is an out dated deal. Any half dumb bad guy would rather shy away from using one and use a high powered hand gun instead. At least that would keep him out of jail for maybe a few years less.

Maybe some LEO could put some modern light on the subject.

BTW, I am not saying that sawed off shot guns should be legalize.

Joe

Actually, you can legally own a sawed off shotgun. All it takes is a stamp from the ATF. Similar to one you would get for a Class III weapon.

__________________
Proverbs 14:7

Well, you can "saw" one off to a shade over 18," and that's pretty darn short. Anything shorter, to me, just isn't practical on the premise that it's just hard to hang on to with a load of any merit.

If the law was changed, I could see some redneck trimming back a H&R 12ga with a 3 1/2" chamber, installing a pistol grip, throwing in a 2 1/4 oz. turkey load and yelling "hey, watch this!"


I could see the picture now of some gentleman with a concave purple strip stretching from his lower jaw to the top of his forehead, with his left hand "glued" to what was left of a forearm that split when the recoil jerked the escutcheon from the grip!

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Hi Joe,

There are two major reasons a thug wants a gun, assassination and intimidation. A single barrel .410 and a hacksaw blade are far cheaper and less bulky than an S&W – 500. Especially since it is usually wise to ditch the weapon after the crime. I do agree the law is ridiculous. Better we just make it illegal to shoot people than attempt to outlaw an inanimate object. Oops, we have already done that and we all know how well that works. If the thug won’t abbey the law about not shooting people, he won’t abbey the law about not sawing off the barrel on a shotgun.

Just my opinion.

Bill

The judge has a rifled barrel thus it's a handgun.

__________________
Dum vivo cano

Several convert regular shotguns to AOW. The transfer tax is only $5. The paperwork takes about 90 days and requires an FBI check, not a big deal.

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

When I bought my Mossberg 500 ($189) "Camper Combo" in the late 80's, you got the regular, choked barrel and an 18" smooth bore barrel to compliment the included pistol grip. I threw the pistol grip somewhere in the basement after shooting a box of 12 gauge slugs.

Shotguns with Bbl.s shorter then 18" are legal if they are muzzleloaders. (fed. law) Don't know about various states.

They are legal in most states, as long as they are registered with the Feds as an NFA (National Firearms Act)weapon. Payment of the transfer tax, and the proper paperwork, background check and some of your cash will put one in your hands.

A handful of states do not allow the citizens of those states to possess 'short barreled shotguns' or 'short barreled rifles'. The shotgun (smoothbore weapon) must have barrel(s) at least 18" long and OAL at least 26" to keep it out of that registered NFA catagory. Anything under either of those minimums makes it an NFA weapon and it needs to be registered to be legal.

A few states I believe have their own barrel length minimums that are longer than the Fed and must be adhered to when inside those boundarys.
The 'Judge' revolver is rifled so it is not considered a 'shotgun' even though it chambers the 410 shotshell.
Same as the T/C Contender in 45 Colt/410 though there was a lawsuit by the BATF once that took it off the market in that configuration because they deemed it a short barreled shotgun. But the BATF lost the lawsuit and the gun went back onto the market. Don't know if they stil make that one or not. Had a screw on choke w/ straight rifleing to minimize the spin to the shot pattern.



The other catagory that smoothbore handguns can fall into is AOW,,Any Other Weapon. Another NFA catagory requireing the gun to be registered with the BATFE and a transfer tax paid when sold,,though I think the AOW tax is only $5 where the SBS and SBR transfer tax is $200. I may have that wrong though.
And yes, all this registration and tax came about as a result of the 'gangster era' and our politicians passing laws to help keep us helpless citzens safe.

Jerry in SC,That is on sick puppy!Some how I'm thinking about finances now.Shh the wifes coming

__________________
Dum vivo cano

If the law was changed, I could see some redneck trimming back a H&R 12ga with a 3 1/2" chamber, installing a pistol grip, throwing in a 2 1/4 oz. turkey load and yelling "hey, watch this!"


I could see the picture now of some gentleman with a concave purple strip stretching from his lower jaw to the top of his forehead, with his left hand "glued" to what was left of a forearm that split when the recoil jerked the escutcheon from the grip!

It's really not that bad. The recoil splits the web of your hand after a few shots...

AHH?
That would be me!
Back in my younger and dumber days (16)
I got hold of a stevens 12ga. single shot that had split the barrel from the muzzle down about 3"
I cut the stock off at the end of the bolt that holds it on. Then cut the barrel down to a nice 12"
((BTW- There was another bad *** (idiot) in the neighborhood that did the same thing a few years before me.
He fired his with one hand with no more of an injury than a sore wrist and a bloody crease running from the bridge of his nose to his hairline.))

So when it came time to test my creation no one was willing to touch a round off remembering the out come of the other badass(idiot)
So one night I took the gun in BOTH hands and holding it at my hip I yanked the trigger.

KABOOM!!!
The recoil jerked the muzzle up to where the gun barrel was level with my eyes.
The neighbors across the street( I was standing in the street in front of the house) jerked their drapes back to see what just happened.
I looked in their driveway and noticed that the windshield on their van was shattered!!!
I dropped the gun down to my side and boot legged it back to my buddys garage.
Turned out that the van window was just covered with beads of rain and wasn't hit by any shot(whew)

After that no one was interested in shooting it anymore and it ended up being tossed in the trunk of a buddys car and scrapped with the car a while later.

__________________
Jeb

my pick factory 20

I got an old off brand sears catalog pump action 12 from my grandfather ( I poured the concrete for his patio and I got a 40 year old gun that was a dust collector) In Wisconsin a sawed off has to have an 18 inch barrel so I sawed it down and replaced the split chipped, loose stock with a pistold grip/full stock combo and its become my favorite house gun/ home defense piece. Its reliable and rock steady.

But a funny story from my father, he was at a flea market and saw a guy selling a sawed off double barrel 12 with the stock cut down ala Mad Max style.The guy talked big and told my dad he could shoot it one handed. One 12 gauge buckshot shell and a broken wristed vendor later my dad save his cash and tells that story whenever sawed offs are brought up.

The National Firearms Act (NFA)was passed back in 1934. That's the law that regulated "sawed off" shotguns. Basically, if you want to make one, you fill out a form, do some paperwork and pay 200 dollars. Same to fee to buy one that someone else made. If the gun never had a stock attached and was a virgin receiver, then chances are it will be an AOW and you still do paperwork, but pay a five dollar tax. Unless you build the AOW yourself, then it is still 200 dollars.

Anyway, 14" or shorter 12 gauges are somewhat popular. Sometimes called "entry guns", they're also increasingly seen in general LE use because patrol cars have gotten smaller.

You lose velocity and they kick quite a bit, but I suppose are useful up close or for things like blowing off locks when breaching.

The Taurus Judge and various other .45/.410 handguns are basically at their best for killing snakes and perhaps large spiders.

Anyway, laws against "sawed off shotguns", and probably machine guns for that matter, were the AWB type hysteria of their time. The media hyped their use by criminal and unsavory elements and big brother didn't like folks having them. Same old same old.

Similar hysteria led to laws against switchblades - the new demon weapon - back in the 50's to keep them out of the hands of delinquents.

I suppose if someone had a lot of time and money on their hands, they could try to challenge these laws as violating the 2A. The old Miller case did mention weapons being used by the military as a possible test after all, and the Army does issue both switch blades and short barreled shotguns these days.

The Sheriffs Office I worked for had 2 of those that they were selling at the time I was there. We got to take them out to the range and put a few rounds through them just to say we had done so. With some loads you would consider usable in a serious situation, those A&B guns were anything but comfortable to shoot. But they sure looked cool!

What we put through them that day was much more than the Flues model frame they were built on was made to handle I learned later in life.

The name escapes me now, but they went to a very well known dealer in NFA weapons in NM. This was in the very early 70's. Sold the Thompsons (4) too but we made sure the ammo was allll goooone

Wonder where those guns are today.

This is an 870 Police Magnum with a 12" barrel. Shotshells use a fairly slow burning powder and isn't very good for use in shorter barrels, recoil with this one is very tolerable and can be shot with one hand due to it's weight. But penetration suffers also compared to a longer barrel.

I think they are dangerous and should be outlawed.

Here's my 14 year old son with a Remington 870. I told him we were going bird hunting, I don't think he believes me.
Actually, Dad prefer's something like an original Parker Coachgun in 10 gauge.

A gun-savvy buddy, who should have known better, recently bought a Taurus "Judge" and was predictably very disappointed with it. The .410 slugs are tiny and impotent, he said the patterns thrown by shotshells had holes big enough to walk through --n not even useful against snakes. He asked my advice as to its disposition, and I advised putting it on consignment at our local gunshop.

I've always fancied owning an Ithaca Auto & Burglar, but can't justify the lack of mission and expense...

Most new ones are considered entry guns. One in particular attaches underneath an M4. I'd like a SBR Colt's while I'm at it. Setting up a trust is best method, the local sheriff or chief doesn't have to sign off on it.

I just wish I'd had enough money to buy a HK MP5K full auto before 1986.

Please explain to me why so I can understand also. I don't understand why lawabiding people can't own any small arms including full autos and suppressors that they so desire. Isn't that part of what freedom is? I'm sooooo out of touch.

I read Doc Holliday carried a sawed off under his duster on a lanyard. The lanyard ring was so positioned that when he opened his duster the barrels came up to firing position.

May not be a big deal to you but here in RI only LEO's can personally own such things. BAFT permit be damn. Can some LEO out there explain why only they should be allowed private ownership of such things? They must be a better or separate class of citizen than everyone else, at least here in RI.

If your into blackpowder, Pedersoli makes their lovely Howdah that can be had in 20 gauge.

__________________
Vaya con Dios

I shoot this with one hand, occasionally. Trigger guard puts a bruise on the back of my second finger. Otherwise, ain't no big thing. Shoot it with both birdshot and buckshot. The buckshot has much less recoil than the birdshot. Eleven inch barrels.

__________________
I always take precautions

Doc Holliday did carry a sawed off shotgun, a Belgian Meteor 10 gauge double barrel.

__________________
Vaya con Dios

Citizens can't have a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches in Michigan. Perhaps if you're a LEO or have a class 3 lisence, but Joes like me can't. I saw the slickest .410 single shot on COPS this evening, though. I was only 12 inches at most and had a 4 shell ammo carrier attached. The guy had a clown mask and was a felon and went to the pokey for having a firearm, and an illegal firearm at that. I would love that piece!

Rossi Overland right? Did you do the work on this?? Very cool!

Let us not forget.
18" barrel.
26" overall length.
26" is not long at all.
I have an old shottie that's been cut to 18.5" and the wood stock was shaved to pistol grip style.
Gun is still 30+ inches.
Go look at a shottie with your tape measure.
I dont think 26" would be tough to conceil.
A remington 870 with 18" barrel and pistol grip is still longer than the 26" min.
Peter

__________________
Need 1/2 moon Chiefs special

Actually a legally manufactured 'sawed-off' is a Class II weapon, as licensed by the BATFE.

Several years ago I managed a retail store in a less than great neighborhood and my constant companion was a Detonics 45. When I made the bank deposits I had a pistol gripped Ithaca 12 gauge with 12 " barrel on a velcro loop over my shoulder and under my arm underneath my jacket.

Bought it through a Class III dealer and the local sheriff had to sign off on it. He picked it up off his desk, examined it and grinned at me when he signed the papers and said, " just try not to have to use it and make a lot of paperwork for me".

__________________
Qui plantavit curabit

I have a Stevens sawed off 16 ga 18 1/8 " Used it has a stake out gun in Narcotics.

Favorite tactic was to go into a bar first and head to the bathroom with sawed off broke down in three parts. Bout the time I had it together the other Agent would hit the front door with the search door. Those "holding" would run to flush the dope and meet me and the Stevens and a hand full of evidence bags and flexie cuffs

Yep, Rossi. I sent the barrels to Big Ed, at San Pedro Saddlery, in Tombstone. He's the one that made the holster. I told him "eleven inches", and he cut and crowned the barrels, filled the gap and installed a new bead. And the holster is the right size. All I did was cut the stock down.

__________________
I always take precautions

+1.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I saw that same show, that's what sparked my post here. That guy had a bucket full of felonies.

Joe

Now that just aint right! One heck of a "speed" trap I'd say!

Not true. Just have to pay your $50 to the ATF for a letter.

Hi Moosedog,
In Michigan "short barreled shotguns" are illegal. An "AOW" (Any Other Weapon") however are legal, such as the one your Son was shooting Geese with!
An AOW requires a $5.00 transfer fee.

__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Anyone that can legally own a gun can own full autos, short barreled weapons, and suppressors here in South Carolina. There are many states that don't think their <STRIKE>citizens</STRIKE> subjects should own such dangerous weapons.

In California; no live machineguns since 1968, no dewats since 1989, short-barreled rifles and short-barreled shotguns are okay if ATF has classified them as Curios & Relics, Any Other Weapons are okay except penguns.

Machinegun permits are only issued to Federally licensed importers, Federally licensed manufacturers, Federally licensed dealers, and Hollywood. Guess who has most of the machinegun permits.

Joern You right it was a speed trap but it also weeded them out and cracked up some

Actually, I think you are mistaken, technically, anyone if CA can own a legally registered machine gun providing they have a CA issued machine gun permit. That said, obtaining said permit is next to impossible unless you are politically connected, a celebrity, etc.

I may be wrong on this, but I'm about 99% sure that is correct.

A C&R Short barreled shotgun is legal in MI. I have a Remington 870 made in 1952 that I filled out the form 1 and even got a pistol permit here in MI. I'll try to post a pic of it.

[IMG]a href="http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/drdremel/MI%201st%20SBS%20Rem%20870/?action=view&current=PB050138.jpg" target="_blank"></a>]a href="http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/drdremel/MI%201st%20SBS%20Rem%20870/?action=view&current=PB050138.jpg" target="_blank"></a>[/URL]

From what I am told, by gun shop owner and sawed off owners, the transfer fee is $5, if the gun has never had a shoulder stock, ie, it comes from Rem, Winch, Moss etc to a specialty shop who put there little touches to it. If it is a shoulder stock gun and is sawed off to less than 18 1/2", $200. I think that the $200 fee is more for people who modify their own gun.

__________________
Proverbs 14:7

I recently legally purchased a Remington 870 supermag 12g for self defense if anyone broke in my house and I want to legally turn it into a sawed off. I understand it has to be above 18 and I have to pay a big amount of money to get it done. But I don't know how to do it with what I have. If anyone can give me tips on what to do it will be appreciated.

I agree that there should be no federal restrictions on a sawed off shotgun. However, if you get a legal, quality, 18 1/2 inch barrel, pump with a pistol grip it gets pretty close and you don't need any special stamp or paperwork.

How long is the bbl on it as is?

Unless you are tight quarters or doing entry work, vip protection, etc a standard profile riot gun configuration (18 to 21 bbl, regular stock) generally works well on a home defense shotgun.

Back in the 70s Hi- standard made a police shotgun with a built
in spotlight on top. Police dept bought 3 of them off LGS local.
They brought one back with problems with light. Owner sold me
problem gun cheap and ordered cops a new one. I took it apart
and repaired wires. Gun was a quasi bull pup, self loader. For a
butt it had a curved piece of strap iron bolted right on back of
action. With slugs or 00 it would about tear your arm off. It had
18" barrel, with low brass 71/2 loads it would blast anything in
light beam. I think it was a m-10. I traded it for a Lefever 16g
double and never regretted it.