Never hurts to ask so here I go. Picked up the F&W 38 British Bull-dog and need a trigger return spring and the loading gate which I'm guessing has a spring as well. I realize I might have to buy a parts gun though it seems they run from rust bucket then jump to buffed, re-nickled and proud. Maybe it shot a S&W 38. I've read the F&W 38 was produced from 1878-1890. That's two years after the 38 S&W round came out.
Thanks guys...

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Caveat venditor.

Never hurts to ask so here I go. Picked up the F&W 38 British Bull-dog and need a trigger return spring and the loading gate which I'm guessing has a spring as well. I realize I might have to buy a parts gun though it seems they run from rust bucket then jump to buffed, re-nickled and proud. Maybe it shot a S&W 38. I've read the F&W 38 was produced from 1878-1890. That's two years after the 38 S&W round came out.
Thanks guys...

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You can probably expect to make or modify a trigger return spring. You sure it's not 38 Rim Fire rather than 38 S&W?

I don't know if it's CF or RF. Figured someone would know and holler. The firing pin does center and an empty 38 hull fit in the cylinder. I read where F&W started the 32 BD in 1875 and the 38 in 1878. Kinds fits w/when the S&W 38 came out. Of course, just coz it fits to me doesn't mean squat! Now, the cylinder seems to be of the correct length for a S&W 38 and when I slide a 38 special in one of the holes there's wiggle room that the heeled boolit of the SW 38 should fill up. Merely speculation on my part though.

Upon further inspection it seems the loading gate broke as there's a small slotted screw holding a piece of what's left still attached to the frame.

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I can't help much with the loading gate, but I've made a bunch of trigger return springs for various top breaks and such. Most are just a simple 'V' shaped spring that sits in a pocket above the trigger. They always break at the bend. Don't even bother buying a new one from Numrich. I've installed a couple brand-new ones, and they broke on the first squeeze.

The best replacement I've found is using one of those large black paper clips (called Binder clips). The kind you squeeze to clamp on to the top of a stack of paper. Get the largest, thickest ones. Just cut the size you need out of the black spring, with a Dremel cutoff wheel. It will already have the sharp bend. Very easy to make and fit.
Click here for a pic of one.
Chris

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Thanks, I was guessing bent flat stock was the return spring. Just the mention of F&W Bulldog trigger return spring in the header was reason enough for Numrich Customer Service to delete w/o reading the text that included the loading gate.
Seems to be a common problem as I'm running into a few while snooping that need the same return spring.
Another issue that may be addressed by the same spring is that the hand will not work unless the pistol is leaning forward. Works like a charm w/gravity forcing the hand to "fall out" of it's slot. Otherwise the trigger just forces the hand up higher in the slot.

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Most of the .38 cal F&W Bulldogs I've had were rimfire. These are interesting guns and somewhat uncommon. They were made in .32, .38 & .41 RF calibers, in double action and called "self cockers" under patent # 116,442, June 23, 1871, for the first models. The guns are close copies of the Webleys of the period. The .38 & .41 cals. were marked "American Bulldog" Seven years later Iver Johnson used the same markings on their version of the Bulldog revolvers, and these are more often seen , as 1,000s more I.J.s were made than F&Ws. I.J. also marked their guns "British Bulldogs." The F&Ws marked "American Bulldog" are rare, as this marking ceased shortly after production began at about the same time as Webley came out with their "British Bulldog" markings. I've never seen a F&W Bulldog with a loading gate, only I.J.s and Foreign made Bulldogs. Are you sure you have a F&W Bulldog? The above info. on making replacement springs is good and works well.

From what I gather the 32 was a 7 shot, 38 was a 6 shot and the 41 a 5 shot. Maybe loading gate is the wrong terminology. They have a kinda knurled/ribbed top that you put your right hand thumb on and swings out and open so you can load. It pivots on the frame, held by a slotted bolt at at about the bottom of the frame window. It's not a stationary loading gate that "falls" between chambers when the cylinder indexes. I'm guessing that the frames were the same and the cylinders were about the same size just one less round as the cartridges became larger. If so maybe the gate or whatever it's called was the same size on all three.
Thanks for pointing out that they were rimfire. The firing pin centered just like a centerfire and information is kinda far n few between.
Forehand & Wadsworth on top of the barrel and British Bull-Dog on the top strap above the cylinder. It has the trademark bulldog stamped on the left side of the frame, the last flat spot before transitioning into the keyhole barrel.

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What you are describing is a true loading gate, seen mainly on I.J.s and foreign guns. I've never seen one on a Forehand & Wadsworth gun, but having said that, it would not suprise me to see one, as there are many variations of the F&W guns that have not been cataloged, as yet. Also, when F&W closed in the 1890s and Hopkins & Allen absorbed them, F&W's parts were used on various styles of guns made by H&A. Your gun may be one of those. The book "The British Bulldog Revolver" by Geo. Layman, has a chapter on the F&W guns and other American made copies of the British Bulldogs.

There's no proof marks on the cylinder and the serial #'s on the butt of the pistol grip match the same on the face of the cylinder. When I pull the black checkered gutta percha grips there is a "2" stamped on the grip frame. Barrel is 2 3/8" no radius or crown the end is flat as a flitter. It seems maybe it was dropped because the gate broke off. On the plus side I still have the little bolt...

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Being American made, there would be no proof marks anywhere on a F&W. What exactly is on the barrel rib? Is Forehand & Wadswoth spelled out, or just F&W ? Any patent dates? Any addresses? The "2" on the grip frame would be a fitter/assemblers mark.

Interesting post! I'm not an F&W collector, but do have some Hopkins & Allen & Merwin & Hulbert guns. Just for info, one of the primary patent holders for H&A and M&H guns was one Daniel Moore, who produced a sweet .32 rimfire 7-shot revolver in the early 1860's. Looked kind of like a 1849 Colt pocket pistol. Brass frames, engraved, and silver plated. Blued barrel & cylinder were released by a catch on the back of the recoil shield, and turned to the right for loading and unloading. He was sued by Smith & Wesson (i.e., Rollin White) for infringement on the bored-through cylinder and quit making that particular gun, but had his hand in on many patents...he was a patent attorney!

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I like the historical stuff!

MikeyL

It's the cross symbol then Forehand & Wadsworth. If you look from the left side it reads from behind the sight left to right and it appears to have a period behind wadsworth. It's on a little skinny flat area that gives the barrel the appearance of a keyhole. It's not like having a raised rib running down the length of the barrel. Barrel is kinda oval w/big end on top.
There's a nice sized slot on the right side of the frame for the gate to slide into closing for strength/protection. Even so there's rounded area in the frame/slot area to ease the loading of shells.

Mikey you didn't hijack anything.

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MikeyL, Actually the roster of players in the New England and Conn. Valley gun makers is even more interesting than some of the guns. It's kind of like the NFL today, great players who have been on several teams in their careers. People like Merwin, Bray, Hulbert, Moore, Buckland, Bacon, Henry, Hopkins, Johnson, Forehand, Allen, Wadsworth, Hartley, Pond, Graham, White and even D.B.Wesson & Horace Smith, all moved around with several different gun makers during their lifetimes, either as employees or partners.

The & of FOREHAND & WADSWORTH is actual made up of two separate marks. Upon looking w/10X loupe it is the number eight, w/small circle on top of a larger circle, listing CW about 40 degrees w/small capital L to the right, but the vertical part of the L is leaning CW w/8 forming an acute angle instead of a 90 degree L. I guess it was part of their trademark but looks like they didn't have the "&" symbol so they improvised. If it was a brand it would be the lazy &...

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opoefc: You bet! It's almost like there was a guild of "master smiths" that worked the Conn. Valley area, and moved from maker to maker. In researching Hopkins & Allen, I found numerous patents filed by Moore, and since I have a few of his creations, it stimulated some research. I'm working on an article on Daniel Moore...I think he was a precursor to John M. Browning. Neat stuff... he probably had his hand in on the F&W guns, too...

MikeyL

I enjoy the older sidearms for their history as well as function. I take a peek at the various auction sites and pick up a little knowledge along the way.
It amazes me how many pieces w/buffed out letters have, "80-90% of original finish" and how many are so rare yet washed out by camera flash while laying on velvet.
I can't afford the nicer examples w/engraving or some models more coveted by the masses. There are still ones, on the lower end of the scale, that I can obtain. Might have to settle for a copy sometimes, but even those have some history and value.
I thank those knowledgeable in older firearms for sharing even when it doesn't concern a S&W example.

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The newest issue of Flayderman's Guide, pages 481 and 482 has nice write-ups on the Forehand & Wadsworth Bull-dogs. They do come in 38 S&W CF and with loading gates. I bought one recently with a missing ejector rod and a broken cylinder pin. I got replacement parts at a very fair price from Jim Shaffer a parts supplier who seems to have everything. I bet he has a loading gate. His phone number is 412-6726830. My gun is the "Indian Bulldog" which I think is identical to one of the British-marked guns. Mine has most of its original finish and is strangly attractive to me. Cheap and lots of history. I have mine cased up with a S&W No. 3. Unfortunately they get little respect from collectors.

Thank you so very much for taking the time to post. I'll conact the gentleman and see what shakes. I'll see what I can do about reading the article as well.

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That's an article I'd sure like to read, I've been running across Moore's name researching Merwin Hulbert, Hopkins & Allen etc. and only "knew" he was a freelance gun inventor in Brooklyn who'd had his own revolver company in the 1860's. Patent attorney is unexpected! The Forehand & Wadsworth's sure seem to have the same design influences, hadn't thought of Moore possibly being the common thread. Hopkins & Allen was making many of Forehand & Wadsworth's parts before F&W folded and was absorbed by H&A which then continued making revolvers under the F&W brand like it did Merwin Hulbert for many years-they're advertised in my 1908 Sears Catalog reproduction which of course just keeps confusing me. I've read several times F&W's were fairly popular in their time, maybe 6th or 7th national brand in sales but no verification or figures. For spare parts you might have as much luck with late model Hopkins & Allen parts (Numrich carries some of those too) or as a parts gun as I'd expect by the later models most of the parts are the same. Not a great plan, but a plan.

It's a long shot, but maybe ther's something useable in the Dixie Gun Works catalog...

rayb

Man I got the same deal I also need and springs for a 1880's F&W bulldog .38 and does anyone have any remfire .38 for sale or trade

Where's the pictures of gun?

I'd forgotten about Jim Shaffer. Old revolvers like this are one of his specialties. He's a good man and a reliable dealer.