Winchester 20 gauge Model 12 value

When I hunt Pancho Villa I always use my Model 12.

I bought a new 870 in 1966. I was 16 and had to have one because that’s what everyone else had. About same time I had to have a Rem 742 deer rifle. I should have known better. If a AR-15 is an assault rifle a 742 Rem was an insult to be called a rifle. I sent that little pig to market. The 870 looked new because I hardly ever used it. I didn’t like the sloppy action.
It functioned ok, it just didn’t feel like a real gun after being use to Wins and Brownings. I just sold it last year for more than twice
a decent M12. That’s how low things have gotten. A few years ago was at a gun auction. Nice standard M12, 30” FC went for $350. The next gun was some kind of Moss 12g-3” Camo job, it went for $500.
How many guys old enough to have been gun buying in early 60s would believe Winchester is defunct, Moss is #1 and Rem #2 in shotgun sales.
Remington always was second to Winchester but Moss is what you got if you couldn’t afford anything better.

Winchester did make the Model 12 after 1964 in 2 ways.
First they took around 500 sets of parts for the orig M12 from production along with spare parts and transfered them to the Custom Shop.
This was in 1963.
They were expecting the end of the M12 as a production firearm in 1964 and it's only continuation would be as a Custom Shop Firearm from there after.

But in 1972, Winchester reintroduced the M12 once again. It's listed in their catalog of that yr (or maybe 1973 ?) can't remember which.
Made in Field, Skeet & Trap grades as a production gun.
These are the so-called 'Y-series' Model 12's.
The 'Y' is the ser# prefix on them. The GCA68 required a letter(s) prefix and this is what the gun got.
These new production guns have investment cast parts most notably the recv'r and trigger guard along with some other small parts.
The vastt majority of the guns made were Trap Grade.
Only cataloged for the one yr, they continued to be sold till 1982 or so.

Going back to those orig production M12's and the 500 sets of their parts set aside for the Custom Shop,,Those guns have no ser# Prefix..
They were already factory roll mark ser#'d in the polishing room at winchester when made in the early 60's.

BUT if a Model 12 was built by the Winchester Custom Shop after GCA68 went into effect and used a set of one of those parts (in particular the already ser#'d frame), then the Custom Shop added a 'Y' prefix to that ser# as demanded by the GCA68 rules.

So you can have a Model12 with a pre64 ser# on it but has a 'Y' prefix.
That at first glance makes no sense as the 'Y series' model 12's didn't come out till 1972/73.

But knowledge of the Custom Shop parts stash near the end of regular production, then it makes sense.

The 1970's/80's Y series gets less credit for being a M12 than the orig production. The investment cast parts usage has a lot to do with it.
(Truth is that Win started using investment cast parts on the M12 in regular production around '62 to save $$)

Most feel there was a lot less hand fitting done, polishing and bluing were not up to the earlier production quality. But most will agree that Winchester did put some very high quality figured wood on these Y series guns.
A constant complaint about them is the obvious screw thru the top of the VR at the muzzle that holds it in place. A big ' I hate that' from Winchester fans' Why didn't they just pin it thru the side of the lug like they always did before is the usual cry.

I've worked on a few of the Y's in the past with just little issues.
Actually they were just small adjustments that should have been taken care of during assembly.
Two were the bolt would not unlock upon firing, you had to manualy unlock the slide,,A quick fix but they should not have passed the Range that way. But there was that proud WP proof mark!

The guns were NIB or nearly so when the owners had bought them even though they were already 20y/o or so. All Trap Grades.

Betw the Orig production, the so called 'Y Series' and the Browning/Japanese repro production M12's,,I think there are plenty of these to go around in all prices, grades, configurations and conditions.
..and I have yet to personally ever own one..
Model 42's and 97's I have though.

I grew up with M-12s. Had a bunch. Most were trap and keet guns super fields too. Yep better feeling than an 870 smoother action...etc etc etc. Winchester made more than a millon. 870s were sure left in the dust...Remington only made about 12 million. The 870 was unfortunately a better shotgun performance wise. Not my choice as best. I ended up using the 1100/11-87. Wichester never could make good semiauto. I literaaly shot more than a million shells through those 1100 guns. Very reliable semi autos for those who knew how to keep 'em working I got married in 1971. Sold 66 of my M-12s. Bought a house for my wife and I. Small 8000 dollar mortgage to update...and we were ok. But M-12s were selling well back then.

This may be a shock to some, but I believe the Model 12s successor, the Model 1200, is better than the Model 12. I have owned a 12 gauge Skeet grade 1200 for many years. I bought it used at a sale held at one of the Winchester gun clubs in the late 1960s when the chain ceased operations. It had been a club rental gun. Just a good idea Winchester had that didn't work out. I have never seen another Skeet grade 1200 since. There was also a Trap grade 1200, but I have never seen one of them either. Perhaps they were used only throughout the Winchester gun club chain, but I do not know their history. I think the only difference in those two 1200 variations vs. a field-grade 1200 was that they used much better quality wood. I later bought a longer full choke barrel for mine so I could use the same 1200 for both trap and Skeet. I loved, and still love, that 1200. It has an extremely smooth action, and is considerably lighter than the M12 due to its alloy receiver. I have fired many thousands of rounds in both trap and skeet through that 1200 with never a single problem. Some may (or may not) know that there was also a Military version of the 1200 made in the Vietnam era and I have seen several of those.

I have a friend who would disagree with you on the 1200 being a better gun than the model 12 DWALT. He put so many rounds through a model 12 shooting trap that the muzzle of the barrel was worn into an oval shape. He decided to retire it and use a relatively new model 1200 trap. After a short time it broke in the middle of a registered shoot. The barrel extension separated from the barrel. He was so disgusted that he threw the 1200 in a trash barrel, retrieved his old model 12 and kept shooting. A teen at the scene asked him if he really intended to throw the 1200 away and if he could have it. He said yes, the teen got the 1200 out of the can, had it re-welded and had a Trap gun for cheap.

I have a few Model 12's, but actually prefer the 870 and even the 1200 for general use. I've had to hand fit parts in Model 12's over the years but with the 870 and 1200 just about everything, barrels included are drop in. The 870 would be my first choice, but the 1200's are quite popular as shooting match guns in my area and I've seen many go thousands of rounds with zero issues.

Skeet 028 said:

I grew up with M-12s. Had a bunch. Most were trap and keet guns super fields too. Yep better feeling than an 870 smoother action...etc etc etc. Winchester made more than a millon. 870s were sure left in the dust...Remington only made about 12 million. The 870 was unfortunately a better shotgun performance wise. Not my choice as best. I ended up using the 1100/11-87. Wichester never could make good semiauto. I literaaly shot more than a million shells through those 1100 guns. Very reliable semi autos for those who knew how to keep 'em working I got married in 1971. Sold 66 of my M-12s. Bought a house for my wife and I. Small 8000 dollar mortgage to update...and we were ok. But M-12s were selling well back then.

Click to expand...

I just purchased an 11-87 Premier in like new condition. Probably 1995 according to P SN. First one for me. Just as reliable as my 870 I purchased in 1970. New auto shotguns with the plastic furniture, dull finishes and chair leg bolt handles leave me cold. You can pay a lot more for an auto but why would you do that. It's a lead delivery system after all. I'm way past trying to impress my friends. Many of them are dead and I don't feel too chipper.

I beg to differ. I have a 1200 I got in 64. I bought another 1200 made in the 70's and the barrels will not interchange. The ejector will not fit into the slot on the barrel.

diyj98 said:

I have a few Model 12's, but actually prefer the 870 and even the 1200 for general use. I've had to hand fit parts in Model 12's over the years but with the 870 and 1200 just about everything, barrels included are drop in. The 870 would be my first choice, but the 1200's are quite popular as shooting match guns in my area and I've seen many go thousands of rounds with zero issues.

Click to expand...

max said:

I beg to differ. I have a 1200 I got in 64. I bought another 1200 made in the 70's and the barrels will not interchange. The ejector will not fit into the slot on the barrel.

Click to expand...

I do not know the SN system for the 1200, so I have no idea when mine was made. I got a high condition used 12 gauge full choke barrel for my 1200 several years after I got the gun but there is no way I can date it either. About allI know is that barrel fit my 1200s receiver perfectly. It was a slick barrel and I toyed with the idea of getting it ribbed. But even though it did not have a rib, it did a commendable job on Trap, enough so that I decided to leave it alone. The military 1200s I have seen had, as I remember, 20" barrels. I would like to have one of those, but never actually searched for one. Just the fact that the 1200 was approved for military service says something about its reliability.

I always considered the 1200 and 1400 SA as junk guns. I actually started Shooting the Smith & Wesson semi auto and their pump too. The pump was an 870 clone the semi auto had a serious gas system flaw that showed up pretty quickly...the gas swelled the mag tube rendering it inoperable. stay away from heavy hunting loads and they were ok kinda. Mossberg made some high grade pumps that were pretty and they always worked. I actually have one now. I also have M-12Y trap...and a couple Pigeon Grades made from the leftover M-12 parts. They cost 400 dollars in 1964. I also happen to have 3 M-12 28 ga guns...made on 20 ga frames... It sometimes took a little work to get them to function smoothly...and I have a Browning made 28 ga...they came with an interrupter for the trigger. I had a 20 ga trigger group I put the 28 ga parts on and it shoots like the original no interrupter guns. Now as far as chamberlength... short chambers usually raise pressures and quite often shot some pretty bad patterns. An easy fix to do the chamber and lengthen the ejection port. Original 28 ga were 2 7/8 inch. My old 1st year 12 ga has had at least 2 barrel headspace rings since I've had it. Lotta shooting.

BTW the military also had Mossberg pump guns too. I personally di not like the top tang safety...most others did though

Model 12 in 20 G

They quit making the model 12 because it was costing too much to manufacture was the story. The gun has real good fit and finish as a rule, thus couldn’t compete with the cheaper-to-make 870’s. It’s a darned nice looking gun, breaks down smaller than the other moderner pumps. They’re cheap enough now that it wouldn’t hurt to get them choke-tubed. As for the shells: the two and three quarters are long for the shorter chambers. The 2.75 measures the fired shell, not the unfired shell. When the longer shell opens up in the shorter chamber, it’s longer than the chamber, thus squishes the end of the shell (and yields higher pressures). That’s where the high pressures come from. A GS can probably bore out the chamber to be longer. As for the clearing the port, I dunno. I have a couple of them (to balance off my L.C. Twenty. Enjoy them all. Got my “good” model 12 a couple years ago and am 29 for 30 on pheasants with it. Must fit me okay and it shoots where I point it evidently. I like the looks of the old gun. My new one is 1938. The also make a good HD gun since they fire faster than the moderner pumps - shorten the bbl 12 or 20. Works for me. I switched to the 20 when my body realized that at my age (a few years back), the 20 beat me less than the 12s. They’re worth trying out. Worst case: buy it/try it. If it doesn’t work for you sell it and could any loss as a “rental” fee. I’ve been doing that with guns for years and end up with some real keepers. Good bang for the buck. A sleeper for the time.