Non-Regulation Sidearms Used In WWI & II

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

In another thread, we were discussing sidearms used by U.S. pilots during the "Great War", and this led to the interesting subject of non-regulation or non-issued sidearms carried by officers and crews.

An Uncle who began his career as an Army enlisted man in 1930's and was later commissioned an officer just before WWII sent home a Mas 1936 French rifle and a German K-98 along with bayonets, both presumbably were battlefield pick ups. The interesting thing was that he was in Paris just after the Nazi occupation at the time he shipped them to his parents....to the lower east side of Manhattan, in a Nazi marked "Presspumpe" crate. I still have the guns, crate and mailing label, all these many years later. He carried the regulation 1911 or 1911-A1, but he also carried his own Colt .25 auto, and a small S&W .32 revolver according to his brother. He was KIA in Korea during the first months of the so called "police action" and was posthumously awarded the Silver Star. He was a Major by that time. His personal sidearms were not returned to the family, and probably were not recovered, due to the nature of his death as it was later reported.

Lefty
BELL CHARTER OAK CUSTOM HOLSTERS (607) 783-2483

 

[Texas Star]

The author of, The Road Past Arnhem and other good books about his experiences as a member of the 101st Airborne Div. in WW II, mentioned carrying a nickle-plated .45 auto, sent to him by his father back in Michigan.
His name escapes me at the moment, but someone here will know. I think he's Donald R. Burgett. ??

One of his sergeants carried a personal hunting rifle, but lost it after being wounded.

The author nearly lost his .45 and a captured P-38 that he took new from a German supply vehicle. He was going into surgery back in the UK, and pleaded with the surgeon to turn a blind eye to regulations and let him keep the guns. The kind doctor hid them under his sheets and he still has them!

This guy went through some of the toughest action in Europe, and his books are worth seeking out.

I mentioned in the pilot's guns thread that Capt. Ted Lawson carried his wife's Colt .32 auto as well as his issued .45 auto on his mission to bomb Tokyo in April, 1942. His B-25 crew all had personal pistols and knives. This was on the famed Doolittle Raid. Lawson's book, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo was made into a popular movie. See it on YouTube.

I'm sure that many other personal arms saw war use, despite regulations, which were looser then. Personal guns were popular through the Viet conflict, but the change in makeup of the military that came about then led to much firmer restrictions on personnel having personal weapons. It's all but impossible now to carry one's own gun, although some commanders allow personal knives, especially in the Special Operations units. My son carried a Fallkniven S-1 in Iraq that I gave him, but also used a Ka-Bar Marine knife. The Marine knife got the rougher use, as it was cheaper to replace and not a gift from Dad. He's home now, and still has the Fallkniven, and plans to use it as his hunting knife. He saw very few personal firearms, and those had to be bought or scounged incountry and left when the bearer did.

T-Star

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Semi related to this topic, would be the use of civilian sporting arms by the British Home Guard during WWII. It is my understanding that they used whatever type of arms they could muster, since the Brit regulars were in a tight bind for both arms and ammunition.

Cheers;
Lefty
http://bellcharteroakholsters.com

 

[AKtinman]

This M&P, S/N 141709, was the first center-fire handgun I owned, and I purchased it as you see it in a gun shop in Honolulu in 1969.

Two years later, living in San Antonio, the S&W was sold to an Air Force pilot with orders to Alaska.

The gun was shipped from the factory in December 1909. Presumably the owner was Lt. Henry Wallace Hall, USMA Class of 1908.

Census records show that Hall was living in Ft. Meade, SD, in 1910, Washington, DC, in 1920, and Ft. Clark, TX, in 1930. His wife is listed as a passenger on the MV Cambrai, departing from Honolulu and arriving in San Francisco October 1, 1929, with a “United States” address of Ft. Clark, Texas.

The 4th Cav was stationed in Hawaii during WWI, and I don’t have any other info on Hall’s military service, other than I was told he retired about 1935, and records indicate he died August 22, 1942 in San Francisco.

My guess is that this M&P did not see service in battle in WWI or WWII, but was Hall’s personal sidearm.

The stocks are modified N-Frame, cockeyed hammer, ejector rod modified, front sight modified. This work was all done before I bought the gun. It was purchased as a shooter, and it was a good one.

It is out there, somewhere...

 

[Texas Star]

Donald Burgett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I found the author mentioned in my post above. Read this, then find his books!

T-Star

 

[David LaPell]

While they were never used in combat (not WWII anyway) George Patton not only carried a Colt Single Action Army but also a Smith Registered Magnum with a 3 1/2 inch barrel that he called his "killing gun". I have heard of the occasional .38 Smith being carried by some, and the British Home Guard was issued Model 94 Winchesters in .30-30 in case of invasion. Recently I came across a Colt Army Special that was built pre-WWI that went through the war carried by a soldier in the Pacific. It is on my wish list if I can ever make the money for it. I once owned a FN 1903 pistol (slightly different than the Colt 1903) in its original 9mm Browning Long cartridge. The gun was not only a war prize, but was carried by the GI who found it for some time. Wish I still had that gun.

 

[opoefc]

From my own military time during the Korean War, the closer you got to the front the less anyone worried about what you carried that was non-issue ordnance. Rear echelon & Stateside, it usually depended on your unit CO whether indiviual weapons were tolerated. I carried a .38 lemon Squeezer 2 In. in a boot holster. Another aviator buddy carried a Colt Single Action in .45acp caliber. We all carried various knives - a Randall fighting knife was the most desired. Bo Randal only made knives for GIs during the war and would put your name on the blade for free. If a Gook was captured with a Randall, his throat was cut with it and the other prisoners captured with him, if wounded, were turned loose to go back to their units and spread the word of the joys that awaited a Gook with a Randall ! Ed.

 

[Texas Star]

While they were never used in combat (not WWII anyway) George Patton not only carried a Colt Single Action Army but also a Smith Registered Magnum with a 3 1/2 inch barrel that he called his "killing gun". I have heard of the occasional .38 Smith being carried by some, and the British Home Guard was issued Model 94 Winchesters in .30-30 in case of invasion. Recently I came across a Colt Army Special that was built pre-WWI that went through the war carried by a soldier in the Pacific. It is on my wish list if I can ever make the money for it. I once owned a FN 1903 pistol (slightly different than the Colt 1903) in its original 9mm Browning Long cartridge. The gun was not only a war prize, but was carried by the GI who found it for some time. Wish I still had that gun.

I think that Patton shot three Mexicans with the Colt before WWI, on a Pershing expedition.

T-Star

 

[Buford57]

My father-in-law, who served under GSP in WWII, came into possession of a 1914 Artillery Luger in North Africa and carried it across Europe in a GI shoulder holster. Still have Luger and holster, but the soldier has been gone 25 years now. When someone would ooh and aah over the Luger he would just shake his head and say his Garand was the better weapon.

 

[beb42503]

I think that Patton shot three Mexicans with the Colt before WWI, on a Pershing expedition.

T-Star

Make that 2 ............the left grip has the 2 notches on this Colt at the Patton Museum at Fort Knox.

 

[MDaly]

38 J Frame

I know of one 38 Spl J frame that was passed hand to hand in Viet Nam. It was not allowed to bring it back to the states so it sold for $50 each time someone went home. It is probably still there. I also knew of a unit armorer who would sell you whatever you wanted. 38's. 45s, Tommy Guns, shotguns, grease guns, AKs and a slew of foreign handguns locally acquired on the black market.

My dad was a Navy pilot in WWII and carried a Victory model along with a Colt 1908 and a pretty cool german switchblade. He flew back from the Pacific with a load of Jap guns and a few US pieces acquired along the way.

MD

 

[Big Cholla]

One of my cousins was a career Warrant Officer in the Marines and spent two tours in Viet Nam. On his first tour he carried a private Colt 1911 modified by Armand Swenson. On his second tour he carried a S&W Highway Patrolman that had been hard chromed. It had a 3.5" barrel. Both were sold to other Marines before DEROS. He had his wife mail the S&W to him in a large box of popped corn just after arrival back in VN. ................ Big Cholla

 

[ACP230]

Gun Digest (the annual) had a story some issues back about a .32 ACP, Colt 1903 that went to World War II and Vietnam. The father carried it first and then the son did.

Another issue had an article about a .45 caliber Browning pistol that predated the 1911 that was also carried in World War II.

 

[BUFF]

My late uncle, Rudy "Huke" Miller, served in the 63rd Infantry Division in Europe, going ashore a month after D-Day then fighting across France, Belgium and Germany as a BAR gunner in an infantry squad. He carried a Savage semiauto pistol chambered for .32 ACP in a pants pocket. He did a bunch of shooting with the BAR, wearing a couple barrels out. He liked throwing grenades at his foes as well as lighting them up with .30-06 A.P. We don't know if he ever shot the Savage.

When he got home he dabbled with gunsmithing but never got too far involved. He disassembled the pistol to refinish it and polished what blue remained off of the frame, slide and barrel. He lost most of the small parts. I gathered up what parts were still there and will, some day, try to get the Savage right and proud again in his memory.

 

[amd6547]

My Father carried a foreign made small 32 auto given to him by a realtive, when he served in europe as an armored cavalryman in WWII. He wasnt sure what make it was, and it was returned to the relative when the war was over...but he said he always kept it in his pocket.
He also had a Norwegian Colt 1911 45 which was captured, and a French Unique 32 which was also captured. Both came home with him. I own the 45, and my brother owns the 32, both guns accompanied by bringback papers.
His unit was out front and entered many german towns, posting the surrender proclamation, and seizing all firearms. Everything that was turned in or found was lined up on curbs and had an armored car or tank driven over them. He always felt really bad about the fine german schuetzen target rifles he saw destroyed that way.
Here is the Norwegian Colt, my most prized firearm:

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

One fellow I spoke with about this subject said his Dad carried a Japanese Nambu while a Marine in the Pacific. He mentioned he still had it and the sword taken from the Japanese officer who was persuaded to surrender, by his Marine Corp German Sheperd wardog. Semper Fi!

Lefty

 

[cowart]

While they were never used in combat (not WWII anyway) George Patton not only carried a Colt Single Action Army but also a Smith Registered Magnum with a 3 1/2 inch barrel that he called his "killing gun".

I recall that he also carried a Colt Model 1903 Hammerless.

 

[cowart]

I think that Patton shot three Mexicans with the Colt before WWI, on a Pershing expedition.

I don't know how accurate it is, but I read an account where this was described as being the first known instance of a member of the US military using a motorized vehicle (a borrowed civilian automobile) in combat.

 

[pompier]

I recall that he also carried a Colt Model 1903 Hammerless.

George Patton was a real gun nut. I've seen wartime
photos of him with a Remington model 51 a Colt Detective Special and believe it or not even a 1911. Guess he carried whatever suited his mood that day. Too bad he died too soon.

 

[amd6547]

Not to get too OT, but a book I read a few months ago made a good case for Patton having been assasinated.