19 year old burglar shot at the back door in Utah, this should be interesting

[dacoontz]

This only happened 6 hours ago. The investigation is still underway. It is unlikely the prosecutors, the Salt Lake County District Attorneys Office, will have a decision about this for a few days at least. The guy had a wife and two little girls in the house with him.

My situation is the same with a wife and two young kids. I am not sure how patient I could be in this circumstance either. It will be interesting to see what the DA decides and what kind of message resonates afterward.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Back home in Texas, if they're on your property after sundown, it's pretty much weapons free as far as I recall. I remember back in San Antonio a homeowner saw a shadowy figure by his chicken coops and shot him in the middle of the night; turned out to be a teen up to no good, but the homeowner wasn't arrested or charged.

Bitstream,

Your assessment is spot-on. I recently had a conversation with my two teenagers and informed them that in the Great State of Texas you could use lethal force in the face of criminal mishchief. They were stunned to learn that "t-p'ing", egging someone's house, or playing "ding-dong ditch" constituted criminal mischief. Hopefully that little talk might do some good.

Regards,

Dave

 

[cmort666]

I live in Ohio. We have castle doctrine.

I'll wait until you get inside... after which you will have to be CARRIED out.

I always love people (especially Brits) who whine, "But he was drinking!", to which I always reply, "Then don't do that."

If being drunk or high causes you to break into occupied dwellings, you either need to stop your chemical recreation or accept the likelihood of having your MOS involuntarily changed to "bullet trap".

 

[dacoontz]

Well, based on the current DA in Salt Lake County who has 4 kids and graduated from the very conservative BYU, I would say that no charges are coming. Maybe he'll get a slap on the wrist for discharging a firearm inside county limits or something like that. Now, if the case doesn't get dealt with before Jan 1st then we switch to a Democratic DA that may have a different opinion of firearms. I don't really know much about him yet. Well, it looks like he studied environmental law and was endorsed by the Salt Lake City Mayor (democrat) and Salt Lake County Mayor (democrat). Good thing this didn't happen to him 2 months from now.

 

[nostraDONus]

It seems that since after being shot he had enough life left to run out to the street he could just as well have had enough life to kill the homeowner(s) or their children had they waited for him to enter the house.

Good lesson for all the idiots out there to really think through your choice of profession before starting.

 

[Big Cholla]

Defendent On Thin Ice

I wouldn't use the defense proposed by Dacoontz either, but in some states civil lawsuits are precluded if a defensive shooting is held to be justified. If you read post #10 again very carefully, I think you'll agree that there are situations in Utah where both criminal and civil liability will not attach.

All good in theory, but as there are two very important elements to that No. 2) proviso; it is all going to come down to what sort of statement the Home Owner gave at the shooting scene before getting a Lawyer involved. One careless statement by the HO could invalidate either required element.

I did consider that in my statement, but contend that civil suits will still be brought and will still have to be defended at great expense even if one prevails. I know a Las Vegas LEO that was involved in two righteous shootings, one off duty and one on duty. The Dept. he was with defended him criminally on both but refused to pay for his defense on the civil suits. Total cost to him was financially devastating. No, I don't know all the inside details, but I suspect the Dept. was tired of him and just used that tact to get rid of him.

Anyway, here in Nevada if you win criminally, you are still subject civilly. BUT, for some reason, if you first win civilly you are precluded from being charged criminally for the act for which you were civilly sued. ............. Big Cholla

 

[watchmanjimg]

All good in theory, but as there are two very important elements to that No. 2) proviso; it is all going to come down to what sort of statement the Home Owner gave at the shooting scene before getting a Lawyer involved. One careless statement by the HO could invalidate either required element.

I did consider that in my statement, but contend that civil suits will still be brought and will still have to be defended at great expense even if one prevails. I know a Las Vegas LEO that was involved in two righteous shootings, one off duty and one on duty. The Dept. he was with defended him criminally on both but refused to pay for his defense on the civil suits. Total cost to him was financially devastating. No, I don't know all the inside details, but I suspect the Dept. was tired of him and just used that tact to get rid of him.

Anyway, here in Nevada if you win criminally, you are still subject civilly. BUT, for some reason, if you first win civilly you are precluded from being charged criminally for the act for which you were civilly sued. ............. Big Cholla

My theory was based on a reading of the applicable Utah statutes and the facts as they were explained by the OP. Yours appears to be based on a Nevada case that appears completely unrelated to what we're talking about here, plus your unshakable belief that if you shoot someone you're going to get sued no matter what. I guess you've got it all figured out, but in the end it doesn't matter. We can probably agree on one thing--shooting someone for any reason can be a real pain in the butt.

 

[Big Cholla]

Watchman....; Yes, we have both figured that one out! No, I don't believe that one is 'always' going to be sued civilly. I just say be prepared for being sued in every way possible. From the first moment I was turned loose on the street packing a badge and a gun, I had a Lawyer on retainer. Yes, he is a friend and was relatively inexpensive 'on retainer', but I had all his phone numbers with me at all times. A good big handgun is only one form of 'self-protection' in which I believe. ....... Big Cholla

 

[Stevens]

In Louisiana homicide is justafiable by someone inside if a person is in or attempting to make an unlawful entry into your dwelling, business, or car. The shooter must believe the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent entry or compel the intruder to leave the premises or vehicle.
It is justified even though the owner does not retreat from the encounter.
Steve

 

[sjmjax]

Just consider the high profile case in the news.

Man breaks into house rapes and strangles the wife, ties the two teenage daughters to their beds and sets the house on fire.

Jury Recommends Death for Connecticut Man in Home Invasion Rape-Murders - FoxNews.com

Don't think it is wise to second guess the intent of someone making forceful entry into your home.

If your State doesn't have "castle doctrine laws in effect", elect new representatives
In the meantime, defend your home or risk ending up like the family mentioned above.

 

[jkc]

An acquaintance had a similar experience --- Alerted in the night by his barking dogs to some disturbance in his back yard, he grabbed the still-loaded shotgun he'd brought home from a predator hunt, and slid open the Arcadia door to investigate. A young man, yelling almost incoherently, demanding entry, barged through the door, whereupon the homeowner ( a former MP) butt-stroked him across the bridge of the nose with his 870, yelled to his wife to go to the (two, little) kids' bedroom and call 911, which she thankfully did, without taking time to shriek, or question his tone of voice, raise women's rights issues, or the like... The intruder staggered backward through the patio door, still yelling, recovered his balance if not his senses or composure, and charged back through the door into the family room, whereupon David shot him dead at powderburn range. The intruder, even in death, was graceless enough to leave nasty stains to clean up. Cops arrived, ex post facto, of course, separating husband and wife and getting separate statements from each. Between their identical and corroborating accounts of the incident from their different perspectives, and the 911 recording which captured audio from early on, exonerated him. Never went to a grand jury. The kids were oblivious, slept through the whole escapade, and were not psychologically traumatized whatsoever...

The deceased's family threatened civil action, which never materialized, as it turned out that the perp was off-the-charts intoxicated, and had been justifiably shot in the course of committing multiple felonies, and so forth...

This might have turned out differently had my acquaintance shot the guy with the screwdriver through the door, and it turned out to be a 24-Hour locksmith summoned by his wife...

 

[The Big D]

I will say this with absolute and complete certainty...I will never, ever shoot someone through a door, window, or anything else. Period.

Be safe.

 

[bitstream]

I will say this with absolute and complete certainty...I will never, ever shoot someone through a door, window, or anything else. Period.

Be safe.

So, like even if they are standing there in the window aiming a shotgun at you?

//Sorry, but never say never.

 

[The Big D]

Okay, bitstream; you got me, but c'mon. (BTW, your point is made. Thanx.)

Let me rephrase. I will never, ever shoot an unarmed person...through a door, window, wall or otherwise "outside."

Be safe.

So, like even if they are standing there in the window aiming a shotgun at you?

//Sorry, but never say never.

 

[redlevel]

I think to suggest that an armed homeowner should be required to, or even is morally bound to allow an intruder to actually gain entrance before he/she uses deadly force to stop the intruder is a preposterous notion.

I'm glad I live in Georgia. I'm glad I live in rural South Georgia.

 

[charlie sherrill]

In this state, even before we legitimized such action with Castle Doctrine, (we don't even have to tell them to drag the body inside anymore) this would have been "case closed." You go messing around with someone's home,regardless of your mental state (which the homeowner obviously doesn't know) and you get hurt or killed it's your own damn fault. I have seen similar incidents in the last 40 years where a perp was killed or injured and have yet to see a homeowner prosecuted or a jury award a civil judgement to the deceased or injured moron or his family. Home invasions are very seldom committed here by someone who lives here. The rare home invasion is usually committed by someone from out of state who doesn't understand how things work locally. The survivors get long prison sentences if they are caught.

 

[redlevel]

I am a big fan of John Locke, the 17th Century British philosopher upon whose thoughts and writings our own founders relied so greatly. Here's what Locke had to say about this subject more than three hundred years ago:

“And hence it is, that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power, does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any further than by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases from him: because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretense be what it will, I have no reason to suppose that he, who would take away my liberty, would not when he had me in his power, take away everything else. And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me, i.e. kill him if I can; . . ."

 

[dacoontz]

So the media here is now reporting that the homeowner will likely not be charged based on the law stating that he was preventing a felony, just to paraphrase. They're also reporting that there was another kid trying to break into a window when he heard the shots and ran, good idea. He's turned himself in. The perp's parents are perplexed and say he was considering entering the military and was the youngest of 4 siblings. Recently I have noticed a lot of potentially good 18 to 24 year old young men getting all kinds of screwed up and involved in bad stuff. It's like there is a widespread dysfunction in this age group of young men. But anyway, I hope this story gets plastered all over the news around here because it should help curtail the increase in burglaries in this town. I had a guy try and wiggle my back door open a few months back but he didn't get past my mini american eskimo chihuahua mutt, in Hollywood they call it an eskachi. That little guy would bark if someone broke wind in the backyard. Anyway, he scared that guy out of range and I never had to aim at anything or anyone, thank God. So hopefully, since my wife couldn't handle the damn barking, that this unfortunate story will do just as much to hinder would be criminals.

 

[PDL]

Got to say that shooting thru the door might have been an over reaction. But what if he just ran the guy off and the BG found a softer target down the street. That wouldn't make me feel good either.

Just be glad he wasn't out here. Had an older person hit a night time home invader with a bat. That was after the intruder had assaulted another elderly resident in the house. Took the cops and the DA almost 1 month to decide not to press charges. The batman still could face major civil suits.

 

[feralmerril]

Honey, I just shot the fuller brush salesman!