Colt 1917 Questions (6 pics)
- Thread starter 45Wheelgun
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Wyatt Burp
Member
I'd buy it in a second. To prove that point i recently bought one with no finsh, very smooth, that looks like stailess right now. It was perfectly cut to 2", fantastic front sight installed, and tuned up smoother than my Python. I paid $600 for it and couldn't be happier.
Interesting obseervations on these ole 1917 Colts. Does anyone own or have seen any of the early production with the proverbial 'charge holes'; chambers without a shoulder in it to keep ACP rounds from falling thru when used without 1/2 moon clips?
ingmansinc
US Veteran
The Colt was mfg. in 1918 and is all orig. and the Smith mfg in 1917 may not have orig grips, but not sure.
I paid more than you are talking about and if you could find what you want at a later date I think you could get your $400 back pretty easy.
On the top of the barrel from the back of the front sight to the muzzle it will appear to have been brushed by a wire wheel if it has never been refinished.
OFT
Member
Yes, I had one years ago. The rounds wouldn't fall all the way through but would drop in to the point that the case head was about 3/8" below the rear of the cylinder if I recall correctly.
Pilgrim
US Veteran
Everything I've read said Colt parkerized their 1917's and S&W blued theirs.
A Colt discussion on the Smith Forum! Now that is funny.
The Colt Model of 1917 had a rough BRUSHED blue finish originally. Because of the rough finish, the surface "ridges" in the finish can soon lose their finish, making the appearance look "thin." No Models of 1917 were Parkerized originally. Any Parkerized Colt Model of 1917 has probably been through a WWII rebuild.
I suspect someone "cleaned" up the subject gun with steel wool or the like, thereby removing all remaining finish. It should not affect the shooting qualities, but the gun now has no significant collector value.
The Colt Model of 1917 had a rough BRUSHED blue finish originally. Because of the rough finish, the surface "ridges" in the finish can soon lose their finish, making the appearance look "thin." No Models of 1917 were Parkerized originally. Any Parkerized Colt Model of 1917 has probably been through a WWII rebuild.
I suspect someone "cleaned" up the subject gun with steel wool or the like, thereby removing all remaining finish. It should not affect the shooting qualities, but the gun now has no significant collector value.
I don't think it's been refinished. I believe someone has worked over the muzzle a little with a file, but apart from that, everything I see in the photos looks like factory polish under alot of use and wear. All the polish lines I see go in the correct directions,,not necessarily the easiest to do by hand when someone 'restores' a revolver finish.
The lack of the factory mark could be nothing more than a missed stamping as you can expect most anything in war time production.
I don't see any barrel caliber marking either. I think it should have 'Colt DA 45' on the left side of a 1917. I haven't had a '17 Colt around in a while so I'm going on diminishing memory
and the pics of the other '17s posted. Commercial guns may have been marked differently.
Maybe a 'lunchbox' gun? Missing markings (Pony ,Bbl marks, US Inspectors Mark) plus the polish on the barrel looks like it's one step behind the rest of the parts as far as grit.
The underlying polishing marks show the distinct look of the factory. The slight polishing hard wheel chatter especially on the rounded surfaces that becomes apparent when the blueing begins to wear is easily seen on the cylinder and barrel. Orig. 1917 parts were wirebrushed after their final polish (whatever the grit), most probably with oil, to blend the finish just a bit and remove sharp burrs/edges. That's not an uncommon method of putting a decent finish on metal w/o alot of labor.
The 1917 polish was generally not to commercial quality, aside from the earliest ones. It got progressivly rougher as production went on. Rougher polish is one way of stating that they didn't take the polishing to a higher degree. Trying to save production time during war time. They did the same thing in 1911 production.
Blueing was the same process as the commercial production guns but the rougher metal finish makes the blueing appear darker, almost black in color sometimes on the real late ones.
Parkerizing was done to guns by US Arsenal rebuilding programs after WW1.
With a nice bore and action,,I'd probably buy the 1917 shown if I was in the market for one. It's tough to find a Colt N/S for that price from what I've seen around.
The lack of the factory mark could be nothing more than a missed stamping as you can expect most anything in war time production.
I don't see any barrel caliber marking either. I think it should have 'Colt DA 45' on the left side of a 1917. I haven't had a '17 Colt around in a while so I'm going on diminishing memory
Maybe a 'lunchbox' gun? Missing markings (Pony ,Bbl marks, US Inspectors Mark) plus the polish on the barrel looks like it's one step behind the rest of the parts as far as grit.
The underlying polishing marks show the distinct look of the factory. The slight polishing hard wheel chatter especially on the rounded surfaces that becomes apparent when the blueing begins to wear is easily seen on the cylinder and barrel. Orig. 1917 parts were wirebrushed after their final polish (whatever the grit), most probably with oil, to blend the finish just a bit and remove sharp burrs/edges. That's not an uncommon method of putting a decent finish on metal w/o alot of labor.
The 1917 polish was generally not to commercial quality, aside from the earliest ones. It got progressivly rougher as production went on. Rougher polish is one way of stating that they didn't take the polishing to a higher degree. Trying to save production time during war time. They did the same thing in 1911 production.
Blueing was the same process as the commercial production guns but the rougher metal finish makes the blueing appear darker, almost black in color sometimes on the real late ones.
Parkerizing was done to guns by US Arsenal rebuilding programs after WW1.
With a nice bore and action,,I'd probably buy the 1917 shown if I was in the market for one. It's tough to find a Colt N/S for that price from what I've seen around.
I am not an expert by any means. I have been following this thread with interest.
Looking at the finish on my Colt 1917 it looks like it was done by a sanding belt and not a wire wheel and the "grain" goes in all different directions. There is one spot on top of the barrel the the sanding marks go across the barrel right behind the sight. Mine is blued, but very thin. I believe mine to be in very good original condition, BUT that is my opinion. I'm no expert when it comes to degree of finish. That is for sure.
John
Looking at the finish on my Colt 1917 it looks like it was done by a sanding belt and not a wire wheel and the "grain" goes in all different directions. There is one spot on top of the barrel the the sanding marks go across the barrel right behind the sight. Mine is blued, but very thin. I believe mine to be in very good original condition, BUT that is my opinion. I'm no expert when it comes to degree of finish. That is for sure.
John
You're right about the sanding belt look. The factorys made great use of flat belt/slack belt polishing techniques along with contoured hard polishing wheels formed for specific parts of the guns.
Those marks behind the front sight (and those to the side) are often called 'feather' by the polishers and were the first cuts to be done to remove any braze from the front sight blade installation. Lengthwise polishing cuts are taken at the breech end radius also to begin.
Then the Colt barrels were spin polished,, being carefully held by hand and started and stopped against a belt or hard wheel especially around that front sight to avoid hitting it. Starting with a rough grit to remove the machining marks and going up to whatever grit/polish the bosses say.
Each grit required a different polishing machine setup with it's own balanced wheel/belt. Once set up, they usually stayed set up if it was for a common product.
The polishing rooms were one of the largest areas in production finishing.
The 'feather' polish lines remain around the front sight when the polishing is done. The better the polisher (and the more time he is allowed), the better the blend in that area. Something collectors look for to spot a redone gun,,especially on SAAs where the same polishing techniques (same polishers!)were used.
The commercial/ peace time finish was taken to a very high degree/grit. The wartime polish was not in order to save time and labor.
The wire wheel technique on War time production was used after the less than brilliant final polish to simply blend the polish a bit and deburr the parts.
It gave a little of a matted look to the parts but nothing like a particle blast will do. The polish and grit lines of the belts and grit wheels still show through.
Usually done with oil on the parts,, a wire wheel polish does a nice job of finishing off a less than bright shine. Factorys often refered to it as burnishing.
The Parkerized guns often got a sand blast and/or a heavy, dry wire wheel on some of the parts to make a better surface prep for that finish.
A dry wire wheel will give a different look to polished metal than one gone over with oil on it. Speed of the wheel, wire size, wheel dia. and pressure applied all have a say in the final look.
Wartime production being what it was, quick and dirty for lack of a better term,,the guns will show differences in finish from one lot to the next.
Those marks behind the front sight (and those to the side) are often called 'feather' by the polishers and were the first cuts to be done to remove any braze from the front sight blade installation. Lengthwise polishing cuts are taken at the breech end radius also to begin.
Then the Colt barrels were spin polished,, being carefully held by hand and started and stopped against a belt or hard wheel especially around that front sight to avoid hitting it. Starting with a rough grit to remove the machining marks and going up to whatever grit/polish the bosses say.
Each grit required a different polishing machine setup with it's own balanced wheel/belt. Once set up, they usually stayed set up if it was for a common product.
The polishing rooms were one of the largest areas in production finishing.
The 'feather' polish lines remain around the front sight when the polishing is done. The better the polisher (and the more time he is allowed), the better the blend in that area. Something collectors look for to spot a redone gun,,especially on SAAs where the same polishing techniques (same polishers!)were used.
The commercial/ peace time finish was taken to a very high degree/grit. The wartime polish was not in order to save time and labor.
The wire wheel technique on War time production was used after the less than brilliant final polish to simply blend the polish a bit and deburr the parts.
It gave a little of a matted look to the parts but nothing like a particle blast will do. The polish and grit lines of the belts and grit wheels still show through.
Usually done with oil on the parts,, a wire wheel polish does a nice job of finishing off a less than bright shine. Factorys often refered to it as burnishing.
The Parkerized guns often got a sand blast and/or a heavy, dry wire wheel on some of the parts to make a better surface prep for that finish.
A dry wire wheel will give a different look to polished metal than one gone over with oil on it. Speed of the wheel, wire size, wheel dia. and pressure applied all have a say in the final look.
Wartime production being what it was, quick and dirty for lack of a better term,,the guns will show differences in finish from one lot to the next.
23669d
Member
Did these guns have rubber or wood grips?
1917s had smooth wooden grips.
ltcdalebeasley
US Veteran
Would parkerizing this pistol lower the value?
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If the gun was worn but had all original stampings, it would lower the value. If it has already been refinished, it would have little "collector value" and another refinish would not change that. Many of the WW I surplus 1917s (both Colt and S & W) were Parkerized in the course of service into WW II, but these will usually have an arsenal rework stamping indicating this.
ltcdalebeasley
US Veteran
Alan,
It has not been parkerized and the orginal bluing is still somewhat present. Gunsmith stated it was in very good condition. I just answered my own question with your input.
It has not been parkerized and the orginal bluing is still somewhat present. Gunsmith stated it was in very good condition. I just answered my own question with your input.
I have picked up two Colt 1917s since this thread first appeared, both of them pretty nice and the last one an almost-new steal at an auction price about half of what it should have been. It's interesting to look at the brush and polish marks on the gun and interpret them in line with the comments in this thread. That is truly a coarse finish on those guns.
But back to the original issue... Dave, did you ever buy that gun? Or find a better one later? Inquiring minds want to know!
But back to the original issue... Dave, did you ever buy that gun? Or find a better one later? Inquiring minds want to know!
reddogge
Member
I'd go for this gun myself for $400. I believe it's original finish and the finish is just worn or maybe someone tried to clean up some areas with steel wool. The U.S. marking are present and I'm not at home with access to my reference book on WW2 handguns to comment on the missing rearing pony or even look at my example. BTW, all WW1 Colt 1917s were blued as other have said and the screws have been touched with a screwdriver but not badly.
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Dale,
Zat you from the AC Forum????
Zat you from the AC Forum????
The 1917 Colt illustrated in this copyrighted article I wrote for Dillon's Blue Press catalog/magazine is one of the early ones with the bored-through chambers. It belongs to me. Gotta use clips to fire .45 ACP ammo in it, although .45 Auto Rims work fine.
John
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