Powder burn rates and the 45 ACP

[Rule3]

In light loads with 185 gr, LSWC (ca 720 fps) I prefer the faster burning powders such as VV N-310, Clays, HS-700X, WST or Bullseye.

Now this is a perfect example of what I am trying to get to.

(not singling you out or anything) You have listed 5 different powders. Do they all work equally as well for you as far as accuracy or whatever?

So is it safe to say that for low pressure rounds like the 45ACP faster powder produces better results and for high pressure rounds say 9mm or 40 SW slower powders work better?

From the manuals there is no rhyme or reason.

Yes. I am over anal-yzing this. I guess I am a type Z.

 

[Alk8944]

Rule 3,

One point I didn't see anyone make was that the powder used for original development of what became the .45 A.C.P. going back to 1905 was Bullseye. This was the specified propellant in Mil-Spec ammunition at least into the 1930s, possibly beyond. Military ammunition boxes for .45 A.C.P. at one time specified on the box that the ammunition contained within the box was loaded with Bullseye. They may have specified the exact load, but I am too lazy to go dig in my collection to verify this right now.

Bullseye will provide standard performance for the cartridge for both 230 RN and 185 and 200 gr. Wad Cutter bullets, Lead or jacketed. In most cases it will deliver as good accuracy as any other propellent, and it is extremely economical to load due to the low charge weights used.

My other choices would be Red Dot and 231. Quite a few other propellants will work, but they won't do a better job. Anything slower than Unique is a total waste of money.

 

[Rule3]

Rule 3,

One point I didn't see anyone make was that the powder used for original development of what became the .45 A.C.P. going back to 1905 was Bullseye. This was the specified propellant in Mil-Spec ammunition at least into the 1930s, possibly beyond. Military ammunition boxes for .45 A.C.P. at one time specified on the box that the ammunition contained within the box was loaded with Bullseye. They may have specified the exact load, but I am too lazy to go dig in my collection to verify this right now.

Bullseye will provide standard performance for the cartridge for both 230 RN and 185 and 200 gr. Wad Cutter bullets, Lead or jacketed. In most cases it will deliver as good accuracy as any other propellent, and it is extremely economical to load due to the low charge weights used.

My other choices would be Red Dot and 231. Quite a few other propellants will work, but they won't do a better job. Anything slower than Unique is a total waste of money.

Thanks. I remember a thread not to long ago that addressed the original 45 ACP load as you mention. I though I printed it but guess not. I tried searching, but way to many threads with 45 in them

 

[USSR]

The beauty of the .45 ACP is, anyone who loads for a 12 guage has a suitable powder for the .45 ACP.

Don

 

[fredj338]

Then jumping over to say 9mm 115 JHP you have a lot of the same powders. The results again are all at about the same pressure(I realize they test to get below max specs) but the velocities are all pretty darn close +/- 100 fps so it would seem it doesn't matter what powder is used?
If I am going to get the same velocity and same pressure then how can one be "more accurate" than another.

That is the Zen question for the evening

Well you are missing critical points like case size & pressure between certain rounds. It isn't diff to make any dozen powders work within a narrow pressure range, but the vel will be very diff. While you don;t think 100fps is a lot, in a small case/short bbl, that is quite a bit.
What determines accuracy, many things, not just powder chocie. You can often get sim accuracy between those same dozen powders, but do it using more or less powder, higher or lower pressures. The book note of most accurate load is ONLY for that test platform & may or may not shoot well in your gun w/ your bullet choice. There really is no best for everyone & we are blessed to ba abel to have choices.

 

[fredj338]

Rule 3,

One point I didn't see anyone make was that the powder used for original development of what became the .45 A.C.P. going back to 1905 was Bullseye. This was the specified propellant in Mil-Spec ammunition at least into the 1930s, possibly beyond. Military ammunition boxes for .45 A.C.P. at one time specified on the box that the ammunition contained within the box was loaded with Bullseye. They may have specified the exact load, but I am too lazy to go dig in my collection to verify this right now.
.

WHich only means that there were precious few powders available back then, after all, smokeless powder wasn't very old in 1910. There are far "better" choices to day for the 45acp for target or full power & +P loads. The slowr powders can be used for +P loads, but I find anything much slower than WSF to also be a waste of powder as well.

 

[Rule3]

Well you are missing critical points like case size & pressure between certain rounds. It isn't diff to make any dozen powders work within a narrow pressure range, but the vel will be very diff. While you don;t think 100fps is a lot, in a small case/short bbl, that is quite a bit.
What determines accuracy, many things, not just powder chocie. You can often get sim accuracy between those same dozen powders, but do it using more or less powder, higher or lower pressures. The book note of most accurate load is ONLY for that test platform & may or may not shoot well in your gun w/ your bullet choice. There really is no best for everyone & we are blessed to ba abel to have choices.

In the new Hornady manual (unfortunately they do not list pressures) they list their loads based on velocity. So if you want say 800fps you just go down the list of powders and the all yield the same FPS with of course varying amounts of powder. But they are all within pressure specs.

The majority of loads listed in Lyman all have almost the same pressure, as that's how they tested them, to get to just below max specs.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I also use HP38/W 231 almost exclusively.

I guess my reason for this post was not aimed at loads for the 45 ACP but more at loads in general for any caliber.

The difference in the burn rates listed of the tested powders is so broad, from real fast to real slow.

So I was trying to determine how they(manuals) or anyone arrive at the "best" for each caliber. As I mention previously, the same pressures and velocities can be reached with all of them.

As Dragon88 mention I guess it's "black magic"

Looking at the opposite in the 9mm a high pressure round, the powders are just as varied??

It's like when someone posts a question, what's a good load for xx caliber with xx bullet. Every answer is different. Or it's Unique for everything

It just does not compute with me.

There really isn't a general answer as to which powder is "better" in any or all calibers. Fast powders will build excessive pressure when you try to increase velocity where as slower powders will add velocity and keep pressures lower to a point. (most times and most powders but not all)

As for the best powder for a certain caliber, that's where you are going to have to rely on the reloading community for suggestions tested over time. Although, older reloaders will tell you Bullseye, Unique and 2400 for everything mostly because they were the best back in the day. Now days we have a much wider choice of powders and many will do as good or a better job than the older time tested powders. (but not always) I do however understand the reluctance to change powders. If it ain't broke why bother trying to fix it?

I like to try different powders for a lot of calibers and sometimes I will use 2 or 3 different powders in the same caliber depending on the velocity I'm trying to generate and the bullet weight being used. I don't mind having 3 powders for one caliber whereas there are some reloaders who want only 1 powder for all their calibers. I can't live like that and would rather choose the best powder for the job even if that means having a dozen handgun powder. (which I do actively use along with 7 rifle powders)

Will a few powders load everything you shoot? Of course. Are there better powders to do those jobs? Probably. It all depends upon how much testing you are willing to do and if you are willing to make changes to what you've been doing, in some cases, for a very long time. If you're happy with a load leave it along. If you want more, try to improve it. If you're new, try to find the best powder for the job by asking A LOT of people what they use and why and then test for yourself because your guns may not agree.

 

[fredj338]

In the new Hornady manual (unfortunately they do not list pressures) they list their loads based on velocity. So if you want say 800fps you just go down the list of powders and the all yield the same FPS with of course varying amounts of powder. But they are all within pressure specs.

The majority of loads listed in Lyman all have almost the same pressure, as that's how they tested them, to get to just below max specs.

That is correct but they ALL USE DIFF AMOUNTS of powder. I just don't see why this is so hard to understand?
Faster powers peak pressure sooner, you use less to achieve the same vel as slower powders, but you run out of pressure room sooner because peak pressures comes sooner. A casual glance at any reloading manual shows this. Yes, in the 45acp you can drive a 230grFMJ bullet 850fps w/ 5.2gr of TG (max pressure) or 7.1gr of PP & still have pressure to play with. Pretty simple concept if you just wrap your head around the charge wt vs velocity achieved & where that pressure ends up. SOme of us don't like runing the ragged edge of pressurs, so we do NOT shoot such fast or uberfast powders for anything but light target loads.
Your just making this too hard.

 

[Dragon88]

A lot goes into recommending a "best" powder for a cartridge. Many things have to be considered: powder burn rate, density, burn characteristics at the nominal pressure level of the cartridge, cleanliness of the burn, economy, granule size, how the powder will be thrown, observed accuracy from testing....the list goes on. You are getting hung up on burn rate and that is only leading you down the wrong road. Selecting a powder is a complex process sometimes. Thankfully many cartridges, such as the 45 ACP, have been developed six ways to Sunday and the work is already done for us. When someone asks, "What's the best powder for 44 Magnum?", and someone says "2400", that's based on decades of loading and testing. Don't overthink it, it just is.

As for the original GI load for 45 ACP, I already mentioned it. 5.0gr of Bullseye and a 230gr FMJ. If you read Hatcher's Notebook, he says that the charge for match ball ammo sometimes varied between 4.3 and 4.6gr. Anything in that range will give consistent, accurate performance in nearly any 45 ACP handgun ever made.

 

[Rule3]

I am really not hung up on this as some my think. I made an error in the title using 45 ACP. It should be for any and all loads. It's more an observation of the variance in slow or fast powders can be used for almost all loads.

The reason for the post was really for discussion about the use of pretty much any powder for most any load. It's not difficult and I understand the differences, it's primarily for discussion.
When asked on forums for the "best" fo xyz caliber and bullet, as I mentioned, the results are quite a varied amount. The reason behind the choices are based on what? A lot is anecdotal. Yes, a lot of people have years of experience and have tested their results, many have not.
If it were easy, than the answers would always be the same powder or it's equivalent by another company for each caliber.
But it's not.

So for the common calibers and bullet weight there should be one or two powders and that's it.

9mm, 115 gr FMJ, 40 SW 180FMJ and 45 230gr FMJ, What are the best powders and why? (that's kinda rhetorical)

 

[Skip Sackett]

Again, there are two answers. One is from the scientific side, the other from the human side.

Most of the time, the latter is purely speculation or "feeling" an may or may not be based on facts.

Numbers don't lie. xx powder gives xxxxfps and xxxxxxpsi. How we feel about it goes much deeper than that.

The following things need to be factored in to our personal comments while they have no bearing on the data per se. "The guy that taught me to reload, he said that there was no better load than xxxxx for the xx caliber." "My dad always told me that Bullseye was the best powder for the 45ACP, and he shot real well in competition with it and that is why it is the best."

As for the reason that there is a wide range of powders that are useful for each caliber, is is because they can "fit" inside the SAAMI specifications for the rounds AND because of the development of different powders. Plain and simple, because they can fit.

The other part is the desired outcome of the rounds. Here is something that you can do as a reloader/handloader that the ammo companies cannot do, you can tailor the load just to your feelings. What do I mean? If you want a fast bullet from your handgun, you have the choice of powders to get there. Fast and snappy or a slow push. And yes, the way the bullet is addressed with the "blast" affects accuracy.

Too low of pressure, on too hard of a cast bullet will not allow it to obturate and will not fill the lands and grooves correctly. You will get the velocity but not the accuracy of a fast powder that gets the same speed. Pressure happens faster, bullet swells right away, fills the lands and grooves, no leading and improved accuracy.

 

[Rule3]

Well why didn't you say so in the first place?

Now that is a pretty darn good explanation.

I'll buy that!!

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, it's not a one size fits all answer by any means but it does explain one situation.

With jacketed, there still is some obturation that has to happen so......

How a particular bullet is accelerated on may make a difference too.

Again, not a complete answer, but, hey, some of the other factors jus cannot be known and applied generically.

Hope this helps!

 

[Rule3]

Just as an example of how convoluted the whole topic is. On another forum that shall not be mentioned, a guy is looking to replace Unique with another powder as he feels Unique is to dirty.

Anyway the thread has 28 replies and pretty much 28 different powders Actually some are the same but the reasoning behind some of the choices is well... who knows

It's like all you Northerners who come down here is say "That's not the way we did it up Nowth??"

 

[Dragon88]

Just as an example of how convoluted the whole topic is. On another forum that shall not be mentioned, a guy is looking to replace Unique with another powder as he feels Unique is to dirty.

Anyway the thread has 28 replies and pretty much 28 different powders

And this is a bad thing? I'm not really sure what your question is any more, or if you ever even had a question.

 

[38-44HD45]

Let me make things murkier. (I love being helpful.) Back when I was still shooting IPSC with a .45, we were all looking for the powder that would help us make Major Power Factor (it was 175 then) with the least felt recoil. LOTS of powders would let us hit major with 200 gr. H&G 68s, but we wanted the fastest possible recovery time between shots. Knee-jerk reaction would be to go to the fastest powder, with the lowest charge weight available, keeping in mind that part of actual recoil is the momentum of the powder gas ejecta. Lower ejecta weight=lower actual recoil. So, Bullseye, right? Nope, because Bullseye is dirty, and its pressure curve spikes quickly, making recoil feel sharper. Unique makes Major easily, but with a heavier charge, and spikes later, with a smoother pressure curve, but it is dirty, too. I went to WW 231 for a long time, and was happy with it, until I discovered WW 452AA (no longer made). 452AA had about the same burn rate as 231, but had a very smooth pressure curve, so recoil felt lighter, even though actual recoil was about the same as with 231, since the charge weights were nearly identical. Accuracy in most guns was as good with one as the other.

Fast forward to .38 Super and compensated pistols, and we added the desire for large gas volume to make the comps work well. Actual recoil was less an issue than was muzzle flip, so higher charge weights didn't bother us. Compensators never worked all that well with .45 ACP, due to low pressures, low gas volume, and comparatively heavy bullets. With the Super, running much lighter bullets really fast, the whole world changed. That's when I discovered SR-4756, which has become my favorite powder over a broad spectrum of calibers and load ranges. It is clean, of moderate burn rate (a little slower than Unique), forgiving (not pressure-brittle), and generates plenty of gas volume to make comps work well.

Confused? Don't be. It may all look like voodoo for awhile, but it really all makes sense when you work with it for awhile, and it's FUN to play with. Well, it makes sense until you find out that 452AA had an inverse temperature response, and generated higher pressures at lower temperatures, then it makes one's head spin, or at least, mine does...

 

[Rule3]

And this is a bad thing? I'm not really sure what your question is any more, or if you ever even had a question.

No it's not a bad thing and no I really did not have a specific question, more of a discussion on how many ways you can get for here to there.

It is just such a broad subject even if you stay within one brand of powder. Say Hodgdons. They have so many and then duplicates in the Winchester line. Then they have IMR.

Bring in another company like Alliant and they have their line that will all do the same things. Heck they are probably all made at St Marks and stamped with different labels.

So we all know that Bullseye is the best for shooting 158 gr LSWC in 38 Special Target shooting or wait, is it HP 38/ Win 231??

 

[boatbum101]

I can only speak of target loads from a 1911 platform . Had 2 25-2's but could never get them to shoot well for me w/ their .454-.456 throats . The old standby is/was Bullseye 3.9grs w/ Star 185 SWCHP , 3.8grs w/ Star / Zero 200 SWC or 4.2grs w/ cast HG68 200 . VVN310 is an outstanding powder for 45acp target loads . 3.6 - 4.0 w/ lead 185 / 200 of your choice . 4.3 on up for 185 Nosler / Zero or MG JHP . WST like the old 452AA also produces accurate loads 4.2 w/ Star 185 SWCHP & 4.8 w/ 185 JHP . Some guys like Clays , Solo 1000 , AA#2 , etc . For 230 Ball @ 50yds you want 800-820fps for best groups . I use 5.0 HTG or 5.1 VVN320 . Again lots of powders will work . I want the smallest 10 round groups @ 50yds . If your only shooting 25yds lighter loads might be in order . For self defense I use Fed 230 HS's .

 

[fredj338]

When asked on forums for the "best" fo xyz caliber and bullet, as I mentioned, the results are quite a varied amount. The reason behind the choices are based on what? A lot is anecdotal. Yes, a lot of people have years of experience and have tested their results, many have not.
If it were easy, than the answers would always be the same powder or it's equivalent by another company for each caliber.
But it's not.

So for the common calibers and bullet weight there should be one or two powders and that's it.

9mm, 115 gr FMJ, 40 SW 180FMJ and 45 230gr FMJ, What are the best powders and why? (that's kinda rhetorical)

Many reloaders have no idea why, it's the powder they started with & they have never even tried another, so what would you expect them to say? For most, it's Ford vs Checy, they just like what they like. TG is an example, I absolutely hate the powder for any number of reason, but most love it because it's cheap. Since powder is the cheapest part of any pistol load, I choose based on my vel wants & I don't like riding the ragged edge of over pressure, so I want to get to that higher vel window w/ room to spare. Low vel loads get faster powders so they burn more completely & as my vel needs go up, the powders get slower.
You could load all three of those w/ one of maybe 20 diff powders, just depends on what you want to do. The 40 is the stickie one, as to get full power loads safely, you need a powder on the slower side of W231/HP38. That's fine as powders like Unique, WSF, Universal, HS6 & PP will run fine in all three, but not well below midrange vel/pressure levels in any of them. If you want soft bunnyfart loads, then you go to WST, W231, AA#2, RedDot, etc (remember I do not like TG nor Clays, so they don't get a spot).